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Old 12-06-2006, 10:27 AM   #476
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Sword and Spear/Staff work are inter-related, or at least I've found so in my own training.
The internal "saggital" plane work done with spear/staff is directly applicable to sword work, and its the stepping stone to examining other components of internal work.

[snip]
Myself, training goes something like this:

Solo Work (non weapons) -> Builds physical realizations of certain properties/harmonies.

Said properties/harmonies are put into weapons work, such as spear or cutting. Test and train these realizations with the weapons, which again help the body to realize other factors

Said factors are then put into Solo Work(sans weapons) etc etc.
Its a never ending feedback loop.

Partner work and sparring fit into this feedback loop of course, but they're more of a barometer than a developer if you ask me.



My two cents anyways.

PS
Practicing with any kind of weapon should reveal any "imbalances" you have in your body movement/alignments. Which is why long weapons that exert leverage on the body are used since you can't use "muscle" to wield them. Practicing on a 6 foot bokken quickly whips the bodies alignments into shape
Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to detail your experience. The point about emptyhands and weapons training forming a feedback loop in training internal connection is a good one . . .maybe it is a basic idea, but sometimes the two types of training seem taught in a disconnected manner, as if one doesn't have anything to do with the other, even though the training is for the same body/mind.
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:01 PM   #477
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Sensei Harden,

Thanks for your time. I read as much of the open discussions as I could today.

I won't apologize for pushing you. I will say that I feel a growl deep down and feel encouraged to continue the very painful work of rehabbing my body.

I hope some day to meet you and have you push me - with your hands on my chest, and just smile - because I got it. Either way, the beer is on me that day.

Keep challenging the status quo. It needs to be done. Please be as gentle as you can with those who yell at you, as you have been with me.

David
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:13 PM   #478
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Hi Dave
No worries there. I'm nice.... by nature.
I wish we lived closer. I'd be happy to be part of your rehab. Imagine coming out stronger after that ordeal?

Just a quick heads up. Tisn't all about being pushed. The physical aspects of this body training makes you strong in unusual ways. Ways that just so happen to be very useful in martial pursuits.

Gotta git to a meeting
Dan
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:14 PM   #479
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I think Dan is spot on here...either the teachers don't know how to teach it, or they save it for a special few, or they believe you have to figure it out for yourself...or they teach it, but not in a format like Akuzawa, or Dan, or Mike...something is usually amiss.

Or we students are just clueless (I opt for that choice in my case)...but it's not getting out enough.

I chastized Cady a bit for a similar statement yesterday...but Dan is essentially saying the same thing, but making it a bit more palatable. I think we just have to accept that there are some roadblocks in aikido today that don't necessarily *have* to be there.

Best,
Ron
This is absolutely true. The real problem is that there are actually a number of different aspects of "aiki' which we are all talking about. For the greats, like O-sensei, they were not separate, they were completely integrated. But the discussion is coming at these things from different angles without most of the folks being very clear about what the actual principles are that we need to be discussing.

Mike and Dan, each in his own way, are talking about the power aspect of the art. This power should be "internal power", not just muscular strength. Mike comes largely from the Chinese martial arts background and his descriptive vocabulary is based on that background. Dan comes from a Japanese martial arts background and his descriptive terminology reflects that. I think it is clear however, that they are talking about the same things. It really isn't productive to spend a lot of time in these discussions debating whether these guys know what they are talking about. I've met and trained very briefly with Mike and I can assure folks that he does know what he says he knows. Dan and I have conversed and I know a number of people who have trained with him. He also knows what he say he knows, by all reports.

The issue in these discussions is whether you have to know what they know to be doing Aikido. I suspect that in order to be as good as someone like O-Sensei you do... but there is plenty to work on in Aikido aside from the power aspect. Neither of these guys is a senior Aikido practitioner. I suspect that most of the senior folks in Aikido can do various things that these fellows can't do or can't do any where near as well. (We'll leave aside the question of whether they would even want to do these things).

In my own case, I have pursued the aspect of "aiki" which allows someone like Kuroda Sensei, Angier Sensei, Endo Sensei, Saotome Sensei, etc to drop you without you even feeling it coming. I am largely interested in the aspect of Aikido which allows one to completely neutralize the attacker's strength before or at the instant of contact, as Ushiro Sensei has been explaining. The principles which govern the physical and mental "musubi" are an integral part of great aikido and are a separate area of study for the Aikido student.

As in the area of internal power as described by Mike and Dan, the aspect of "musubi" is not systematically taught by most Aikido teachers. I do not believe that this is a conscious decision in most cases. The post war generation of Aikido teachers did not receive systematic, principle based instruction from O-Sensei. Some, like Tohei Sensei, tried to develop some form of this for themselves. Others, like my own teacher, Saotome Sensei, developed very high skill levels but did so largely in an intuitive manner. Attempts to break the various principles at work in the technique have been successful only in the most limited way because these teachers never had a vocabulary which served to organize their understanding of what they were actually doing.

The good news is that there are folks around who do have some knowledge in these areas. Efforts by folks like Mike, Dan and Ellis are serving to give Aikido folks a more systematic way of approaching various aspects of their training. To the extent that I now understand what Kuroda Sensei, Ushiro Sensei, and others have taught me, I have been able to develop a very systematic approach to teaching what I have gotten from Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. There are other folks around who are doing the same thing.

It is important that people start getting past the need to keep pissing at each other and acting like it somehow diminishes us to admit that someone else has something we don't. I have been doing aikido for thirty years. It's what I do. These guys don't really do Aikido. But could my Aikido be better if I knew what these guys know? Absolutely, without question. I have a whole list of areas which I want to investigate before I expire and the aspects of internal power and kokyu training these guys are talking about are high on the list. But I don't sit up late worrying about the fact that these guys know something I don't. Lots of people know things I don't; that fact does not diminish what I do know. I don't have to dispute their knowledge in order to feel secure about I know.

What we need to do is develop opportunities to share this knowledge. The Aiki Expos started that process. But now there won't be any more Expos, so how do we make that process continue for ourselves? I think a process of open exchange by way of Aikido folks inviting some of these folks to share their knowledge is crucial to the growth of the art. There's a movement within the Aikido community which is actively engaged in simplification. The spiritual side of the art is being removed or at least made "contemporary". The martial aspect of the art is being downplayed to the point at which it really is in danger of not really being a form of Budo any more. Someone needs to adding knowledge back into the art of Aikido to counter what is being lost. These folks who post are at least making an effort to point out that there are aspects of their experience that could be of great help to Aikido folks who wish to make their Aikido more like what the Aikido greats could do. If their delivery of that information pisses people off, I think folks should just get over it. No one is asking these guys to be in the Diplomatic Corps. I mean, I don't see Mike or Dan as Ambassadors to any place... If someone's ego gets a bit twinged by their delivery, well, suck it up, this is Budo. Look at the content, forget about the delivery and make your Aikido better.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 12-06-2006 at 04:16 PM.

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Old 12-06-2006, 04:30 PM   #480
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Nice post George. I was posting this at the same time (post 66). Looks like we covered some common ground.

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Old 12-06-2006, 05:24 PM   #481
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
The real problem is that there are actually a number of different aspects of "aiki' which we are all talking about. For the greats, like O-sensei, they were not separate, they were completely integrated. [[snipsky]]

Mike and Dan, each in his own way, are talking about the power aspect of the art. This power should be "internal power", not just muscular strength. Mike comes largely from the Chinese martial arts background and his descriptive vocabulary is based on that background.
George, I can appreciate what you're saying, but let me add that

(1.) I agree that it should be all integrated... however, integrated Aikido is sort of like integrating the alphabet, spelling, and novel writing; it's all one thing, not 3 possible things you can add at whim. Is novel writing an art that stands by itself without the alphabet or spelling? No. Neither is Aiki without technique or internal strength really a stand-alone concept.

(2.)I realize that my 7-8 years in Aikido is not the same as 30-40 years doing it, but neither is it the same thing as some guy who went to a few classes and then left for the Chinese martial arts. My descriptive vocabulary is really not all that shabby... heck, I was pretty fluent in Japanese at one time, for a yagi-no-mei.
Quote:
The issue in these discussions is whether you have to know what they know to be doing Aikido. I suspect that in order to be as good as someone like O-Sensei you do... but there is plenty to work on in Aikido aside from the power aspect. Neither of these guys is a senior Aikido practitioner. I suspect that most of the senior folks in Aikido can do various things that these fellows can't do or can't do any where near as well. (We'll leave aside the question of whether they would even want to do these things).
This is really the heart of the matter. Speaking strictly for myself, I do and have always made it very clear that I consider the "internal strength" aspects to go like this: "Aikido without kokyu strength is no good; Aikido without proper Aikido technique and only kokyu strength is no good either". I've never said otherwise. The worst-case implication of what I have to say is that Aikido is an integrated art and without internal strength, it's not really Aikido. Period. That says nothing about any claims to Aikido knowledge on my part, but it certainly concurs with Ushiro's offhand observation that "no kokyu; no Aikido". Ushiro doesn't claim to be an Aikido expert and neither do I... but we (and a number of others) recognize that there is something drastically missing. And it ain't Systema.
Quote:
What we need to do is develop opportunities to share this knowledge. The Aiki Expos started that process. But now there won't be any more Expos, so how do we make that process continue for ourselves? I think a process of open exchange by way of Aikido folks inviting some of these folks to share their knowledge is crucial to the growth of the art.
I agree with that totally, George. A lot of the musing I do on the side with Ellis and others is to try and understand how this stuff got dropped so badly. Once I get a feel for what actually happened, I'll probably be on my way... but I would encourage everyone to look very hard. I remember repeating a superficial explanation of some of the ki/kokyu skills to an Asian expert I knew and he laughed and said, "If it was that simple, why would the old people have made such a big deal about it? Do you think they were stupid?". I certainly don't think that Ueshiba was stupid or was doing "parlour tricks" with his ki demonstrations. He was stressing the core of Aikido.

Good post, George.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:51 PM   #482
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

George
I hesitate to respond as I feel the post was squarely aimed at others. But I feel compelled to point out that you seem to have somewhat compartmentalized these skills as
a. Internal strength as sort of static strength against a push.
b Use of Martial skills, and Japanese format in particular- as a separate entity.

The Internal skills-are- Aikido.........
Pushing? Is a test. Not the real use of these skills in motion.

I will only speak for myself in that I would be willing to "do" Aikido as a fighting form along side anyone. I have been using these skills and others in a fighting form for a very long time. It is my view that these skills are at the core of higher level technical skill often seen. And to use them in an art like Aikido; capturing someones center in motion on contact, while it is coming in-in either a punch or grab and manipulating it is standard fair and a fairly rote way to express these skills. And doing so with less agressive attacks of Aikido is easier than in a more intense format.
.
Even things oft seen in Aikido like being magnetic, and not being able to help but to follow. Them feeling as if they cannot let go. etc etc..many of the things you see mainifested IN Aikido you will see and feel in those who start to understand these things. They are in the Chinese arts As well.

And as umpopular as it sounds... I wonder just how many there are who don't know how to teach these skills outside of their technique.

For me the real issue is
a. Whether or not a person has the skills.
Then.....
b. Wether or not they can access and use them in a freestyle fighting format
Then.....
c. Whether or not they can teach

So strictly in an academic sort of question of the practical values in a fighting sense; I'd postulate that anyone with a measurable level of these skills could do aikido with perhaps a very surprising level of competency.

Does that sound awful. It really isn't.
Why?
The Internal skills-are- Aikido.........
Pushing is a test. Not the real skills used in fluid motion and connection.
Ueshiba was fluid. So was Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo etc. And so are others with any measure of these skills.
Should we expect less of ourselves?

If I misunderstood your meaning....my apologies
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-06-2006 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:51 PM   #483
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
[snip]If someone's ego gets a bit twinged by their delivery, well, suck it up, this is Budo. Look at the content, forget about the delivery and make your Aikido better.
Amen.
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Old 12-07-2006, 02:26 AM   #484
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Are you saying you're marking the quantity, not quality of it, Mikel?

Er.....both.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:13 AM   #485
davidafindlay
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

<Left Field>

Hi Thread,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I know I am messing with folks art and their teachers. But honestly. I think in the end, it will help. As Ikeda pointed out in his article I posted here about summer camp..... "We need to start doing things completely different." Go yell at him too. As I said many times. Aikido....full speed...in the wrong direction.
...
Quote:
George L wrote:
There's a movement within the Aikido community ... <snip> ... The martial aspect of the art is being downplayed to the point at which it really is in danger of not really being a form of Budo any more... <snip> ... If someone's ego gets a bit twinged by their delivery, well, suck it up, this is Budo. Look at the content, forget about the delivery and make your Aikido better
... amen to all of the above, and those who are willing to help with the "how to".

For those spectating this thread and thinking something like "Man, I'm never going to learn <Th3 R3aL W1Ng cHUn> " ... well, to those who might be feeling like that...

- give some thought to why you're training what you're training.
- be honest.
- if it really does involve any of the stuff being discussed in this thread, then get out there and start to nose around.

There are certainly numerous dead ends, but the internet is making these days a brave new world. Its not that hard. I suggest that the more people who improve, the more people in general will improve. Which makes it all the more fun for everyone

And as George L mentioned, there is plenty more in aikido than just the (internal) power stuff. Just depends what you're looking for. But if I were going to class because I liked the drinks afterwards, I'd be sleeping better at night if I said I was more involved with a social club than learning bujutsu...

(Not meaning to come across as a @#$%, but just trying to call a spade a spade.)

</Left Field>

Best,
Dave Findlay

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Old 12-07-2006, 10:03 AM   #486
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Not to put too fine a point on it.
But I'm really starting to question folks understanding of the phrase internal "power." Its not always about pushing you off or rebounding you. It is THEE finest way to connect and be ghosty, or connect and carry/lead their intent around with you or lead it off that I know of.
Power ? Yes?
But, for many uses.
And fighting if you have the skill and experience and train becomes a connected whole. Mind/.body/fighting accumen all in one.
The -way-you choose to fight is up to you. No matter what your choice intense or casual you will just be more efficient, controlling of their efforts, and very difficult to stop for average Martial artists.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-07-2006, 02:07 PM   #487
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it.
But I'm really starting to question folks understanding of the phrase internal "power." Its not always about pushing you off or rebounding you. It is THEE finest way to connect and be ghosty, or connect and carry/lead their intent around with you or lead it off that I know of.
Power ? Yes?
But, for many uses.
Is there a better term?
In your view, not to put a fine point on it, etc.
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Old 12-07-2006, 04:01 PM   #488
davidafindlay
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it.
But I'm really starting to question folks understanding of the phrase internal "power." Its not always about pushing you off or rebounding you.
But I'd say the skill is useful - for the rebounding, and also seems to be a pretty standard ticket to show who has at least their foot in the door.
Quote:
It is THEE finest way to connect and be ghosty, or connect and carry/lead their intent around with you or lead it off that I know of.
Yeah, and even when someone's "ghosting" they still have a grounded, connected body... or perhaps a controlled "disconnected" body, if things get into a fix.
Quote:
Power ? Yes?
But, for many uses.
I especially like the speed that seems to come with the skills. The whole body moving and connected. Watching Akuzawa move across the floor was very impresssive. And that sometimes things are *fast* and other times it might not be fast, but seems wholly unstoppable.

I'm also a big fan of the resulting realising a better daily posture, less wear on the body, and starting to learn of the body's systems which would normally seem spntaneous or automatic.
Quote:
And fighting if you have the skill and experience and train becomes a connected whole. Mind/.body/fighting accumen all in one.
The -way-you choose to fight is up to you. No matter what your choice intense or casual you will just be more efficient, controlling of their efforts, and very difficult to stop for average Martial artists.
Cheers
Dan
Absolutely! And its a fascinating study.

Best,
Dave Findlay

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Old 12-11-2006, 08:21 AM   #489
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
If their delivery of that information pisses people off, I think folks should just get over it. No one is asking these guys to be in the Diplomatic Corps. I mean, I don't see Mike or Dan as Ambassadors to any place... If someone's ego gets a bit twinged by their delivery, well, suck it up, this is Budo. Look at the content, forget about the delivery and make your Aikido better.
On the other hand, the gurus shouldn't get peed off, when people do things like point out that the vector stuff that some always stress as the basis for everything martial are in a judo book from the 1950's, The Secrets of Judo (p. 48 pic 22, p. 63, pic 34) and that there's nothing special about them- they are just one of many things.

They are simply a natural product of physics that occur even when we just walk. So training in aikido techniques, for example, is more important than theorizing about vectors, IMO.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:47 AM   #490
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Justin
I don't get upset and have remained positively engaged throughout these various exchanges. It is my view that the ones who have felt these strengths...(now in the dozens here) all are, or were, in Aikido. Thus had felt many shihans. They ...........noted the superiority of these strengths.
I also note -with few exceptions- that the pissyness has been pretty much from the aikido folk.

I find it interesting that you quoted George Ledyard. One of the folks who met Mike. Was Mike Pissy?
You did not quote Mark Murry, Or Rob Liberti. Was I pissy?
And since we are willing to show, and teach for free where does that leave your argument?

What are your views on Ikeda's comments in the Aikido Journal Blog entry I re-posted here?
All of these men have felt many Shihan- curious that they noted a usable strength that could benefit Aikido.

I can go along with your Judo argument but it is missing many key things not spoken. Since we are on the topic. How about you respond to the quotes from Fighting Spirit of Japan where it cites old school Judo players meeting Aikijujutsu men who they.... try to push and pull to no avail
Why try pushing and pulling?
And of the 6th dan judo guy who says when he uses these skills he cannot be thrown

Again and -with any luck for the final time-no one is claiming ownership of these things. Seems many go out of their way to say over and over you can find them in other arts. But they are not openly taught
So, I've no trouble with Judo. Particulary on the edge of Mifunes Aiki-Judo. But vector work doesn't cover it-not by a long shot. You can play vectors with some fols all the day long and it will have minimul results.
1. You need to have a clear path inside you
2. That is enhanced and made potent by connections you have worked and strengthened-inside you.
3. It helps to be able to use breath -power supported by your spine
4. You need to have years of practice to be able to sustain these things in motion
5. Once the above are in place you can have both a sensitivity to contact and manipulation and a power delivery.
6. To be able to access and use them naturally in fighting against trained fighters

It would be my pleasure to meet an Aikido teacher who meets all these condtions. More so, to meet one who can teach it.
I don't think anyone has a corner on these skills. I just argue that few openly teach them

Don't get pissy on me now....
Cheers and happy holidays
And to those like me...Merry Christmas
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-11-2006 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:51 AM   #491
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it.
But I'm really starting to question folks understanding of the phrase internal "power." Its not always about pushing you off or rebounding you. It is THEE finest way to connect and be ghosty, or connect and carry/lead their intent around with you or lead it off that I know of.
Power ? Yes?
But, for many uses.
And fighting if you have the skill and experience and train becomes a connected whole. Mind/.body/fighting accumen all in one.
The -way-you choose to fight is up to you. No matter what your choice intense or casual you will just be more efficient, controlling of their efforts, and very difficult to stop for average Martial artists.
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

Without actually getting a chance to actually feel what you are talking about, I can only judge what your intent is from the discussions I follow. Most of what has been emphasized in the previous posts I have read have concerned issues like the so-called jo-trick, being difficult to throw, having explosive power etc. I finally got the cahnce to train a bit with Mike this summer and he was kind enougth to outline his descriptive vocabulary for me and show me exectly what he meant. So I have a much clearer idea what he means when he posts now. I have not had that with you so it is still unclear to me. I suspect that we have many of the same ideas about the principles but have not yet achieved a common descriptive basis for talking about it.

It is THEE finest way to connect and be ghosty, or connect and carry/lead their intent around with you or lead it off that I know of.

If there could be more discussion about this aspect of what I would call "aiki", I'd have a better picture of what you are doing. Thanks.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:20 AM   #492
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
So, I've no trouble with Judo. Particulary on the edge of Mifunes Aiki-Judo. But vector work doesn't cover it-not by a long shot. You can play vectors with some fols all the day long and it will have minimul results.
I think the negative implications of most of Justin's posts are fairly obvious. I'd say leave him in the ignore file. He's basically a Cheng Man Ching practitioner and they have a reputation for this sort of attitude.

The judo book with "vectors" I haven't bothered to look up, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly which one he's talking about. It's fairly well known, has drawings, etc. The unfortunate problem is that the forces in that particular judo commentary are the normal, "external" forces of technique, not the type of forces we're talking about here. Since Justin is openly indicating that he doesn't understand the jin/kokyu forces as being different from the normal "li" forces, what's the point of engaging in a wasted discussion? Just ignore him, Dan.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:30 AM   #493
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I finally got the chance to train a bit with Mike this summer and he was kind enougth to outline his descriptive vocabulary for me and show me exectly what he meant. So I have a much clearer idea what he means when he posts now.
Hi George:

I enjoyed it, too. Let me try to interject something here about the language and descriptive vocabulary. There are a number of approaches to these body-strength skills. Ueshiba had one. Tohei had one, but it is slightly different. Good karate has a related usage of these skills, but it is different and "harder". I have one... but I keep trying to get softer and softer in my movement-training because I now understand how that works and why it is important. Dan has an assuredly different approach than I do. Akuzawa, from what I can gather in reading and watching vids, has a somewhat different approach based on the old Shaolin tenets ("Shaolin" is NOT a bad word).

The point I'm getting at is that the basic principles are going to be the same in all the honest examples of these skills, but then there is going to be some divergence. I think the first thing everyone should do is get a grasp of the core vocabulary about the basic "mind-directed forces" and the development of the "ki" part of the body. Then and only then should the different divergences get much discussion. What I'm afraid of is an example of some Aikido practitioners grabbing a few ki/kokyu skills, maybe mixing them with a little of the muscular stuff they already do, and then passing it on to an unwary group of up-coming students.

I.e., this is not a simple topic and it's worthwhile taking some time to get the alphabet and terms right, as you suggest. Very worthwhile... almost imperative.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:31 AM   #494
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Hi George

I think we are going to be meeting this year-once the schedule is announced
Wasn't much chance last year.
I agree with what Mike wrote before- that it is not constructive to post much in detail. You yourself just validated it by saying you didn't get the gist of what he wrote about-it till you felt it.
I think folks like Mark Murry and Rob Liberti, and the two Aikido Guys who now train with me regularly (you know their teachers) who have felt it would agree with you. They didn't get what the heck I was talking about either. The capturing center-on-contact and magnetic feel were quite interesting to them. More so to Rob and this other guy who I showed how to *actually* start doing it.

Overall, I'd say the key is to forget the other guy and stop doing things with him. We need to focus on us and what we are doing on the inside. The effect of that work, has and *affect* on everything they do to us. It becomes easy to feel their efforts. I am drawing-in and concentraining on me-not them. I don't ....do...techniques. I am, my space. I occupy it they enter it then depending on what I do we play. It's more fun to play with guys who are training these things themselves. Its more of a contest and feel.

The Aiki aspects
A simple example that may help, is if someone is standing and sinking and spreading while winding up at the same time. Anyone who makes contact feels like they hit a wall. The guy didn't *do*.anything to the person attacking him and is relaxed and moving without moving. Because he is neutral he can be highly sensitive. And if they are playing, they may feel like they are being *drawn* in and down and they start to rise. That can lead to an expulsion or rebound. Or if there is no force we can apply force, from us to them in a throw or strike. Or what cracks up some guys as it feels odd- is you let them push- and inside, without moving, you let them feel the changes you are making to their directed force.
I show simple steps to first identify it -in you- with shoulder pushes and receiving and rebounding. then the next time with way to absorb the same force just using parts of your body axis that remains absorbing while another part is projecting all at the same time. Makes for a fun weekend.
This is simple stuff and the same I'd do in fighting with some key differences
I'm sure we can manage a hands on this year. After feeling each other out we can work and have fun. With any luck at the end of a an afternoon When I write you will say. "I understand what Dan is talking about."
Its not rocket science. It's my belief that anyone who will actually train VS train when they see me can learn to do this stuff.
It just takes adults with an inquisitive dispostion and focus to do these things.

At the end of the day, if this stuff is "natural"- I'd like to see the guy-untrained-who can pull these things off. I must be stupid. It' taken me years. And if it is in fact a trained and learned skill.
From whom?
Where?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-11-2006 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:56 AM   #495
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Just thougt I'd add that I don't pretend to know what other folk are doing by things they write on the internet. I've had a belly full of internet experts and ranked guys who can't do...what they say they can do.
Folks have met Mike, met Rob and met me. No one...not one. has reported back that we are huff and puff. So while we may have distinctly different approaches ...I've no idea...we may have similar results.
Mike has this idea that it is premissed off of the same basics and it builds from there. He may be right.
I think his idea of the one jin...and I had no idea what the heck HE was talking about last year....is correct. In functional body use it is Aiki-age. Though if you don't know what to do with that-you can end up playing Hiriki games- through wrist grabbing, till the cows come home and you won't get far.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-11-2006 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:03 AM   #496
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I think his Idea of the one jin...and I had no idea what he was talking about last year....is correct. In functional body use it is Aiki -age.
OK, thanks. So maybe now I have a better feel for what "Aiki-age" is. The idea of many jins all coming from one jin is, unfortunately, not just my idea. It is a ancient core tenet that's fairly obvious once you begin to pick up skills. It's part of the whole cosmology bandwagon that permeates Asian martial arts and, as such, is part of what Ueshiba was referring to cryptically (but using the standard cryptic phraseology) in the douka.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:43 AM   #497
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

You're welcome...except you still don't know what Aiki-age or Aiki-sage is either. You can't even get folks in the art who have it to agree! Here we can say Peng-jin and lu. And then argue for daring to use that. Or we can say how An is taught clearly to inside people in certain Japanese arts both in the touch of hands and in body -to read and control an attackers force. But it really is just going to progress to more argument there as well. Its easier if you touch, and someone "knows."
It's very frustrating in that there is little agreement in the Japanese arts and from what I am seeing the Chinese arts as well. You get a feeling that it has to -be- concrete and understandable. But then the higher ups say no one should dare say what *X* is because they don't know either. Or (typical) after twenty years they are getting it a little bit. How is that different from the way Chinese arts are taught? I agree and understand that "Ideal" or "model" as well. I have felt and still feel that way- that I am just scratching the surface. But, you still need to train and discuss it in actual hands -on an explicable means. Not hiding the truth buried in techniques that are by an large ancillary to whats *really* going on in the first place. Then ytou get the "we train by principles" guys who take a good idea but can't do a damn thing either. They're just good fighters.
So you either get off the elevator and take the stairs up and upset folks or you get lost on the staircase "to the top"and end up in the basement. Either way you're not on the elevator.
So in the end I think we're still stuck in terminology.
Its why I use hands on to test. Then I feel better asking someone just what the heck they "think" they know.
If it works, it works. If not I just keep on going.
Then we have to consider is the information valuable- but the egg head who has it ...can't use it.
Or is the information *bupkis* and a wrong direction in the first place and not worth considering.
And in the end we are back to discussing that it must fit an Asian model that is known. But that is largely known and yet not known and not openly taught......argh!
And folks who know parts argue over semantics and understanding of what they know and thet tell everyone its known in Asia and agreed to and there is no argument as they argue.
Challenging waters.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-11-2006 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:08 AM   #498
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
You're welcome...except you still don't know what Aiki-age or Aiki-sage is either. You can't even get folks in the art who have it to agree! Here we can say Peng-jin and lu. And then argue for daring to use that. Or we can say how An is taught clearly to inside people in certain Japanese arts both in the touch of hands and in body -to read and control an attackers force. But it really is just going to progress to more argument there as well. Its easier if you touch, and someone "knows."
Well, notice that I just said I get a better feel for what you mean. I did not say that I "know". And from everything I've seen and that I'm hearing, it's not fully peng jin, but probably one of the less-complete versions of top-line, single-rice-grain jin. But the essential principle will have to be the same.... there is only one jin. Line up everyone you want who uses "kokyu", "aiki-age", kei, jin, shakti, and so on.... they will all be using some variation, some mixture of muscle/jin, etc. So I really don't get too interested in arguing what color pants someone has on as long as it's obvious they're wearing pants.

Mike
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:16 AM   #499
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Nah you took that the wrong way...or I worded it poorly.
I was joking in that everyone argues on the Japanese side as to what "they are." So...still kidding...you still don't know...cause they don't agree either. Nor will they.
Rob has some great stuff from Sagawa on that.
Just as you can see many Chinese guys arguing on what the core things in their art are.

I was kidding as well that one the one hand many just get lost in arguing-the other half says its in the techniques and it takes twenty years to figure out and only a very few concentrate on forgeting the waza and JUST train the body.
Hope that makes more sense.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-11-2006 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:17 AM   #500
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Good God Almighty. You two are the wordiest people I ever ran across. And the words you use are strange too. Hell, listening to you to talk is as confusing as trying to order coffee at Starbucks. Anyway I prefer my jin with a g not a j.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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