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Old 12-01-2006, 04:48 PM   #326
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Erick,
Being that this thread is on learning natural movement, might I offer that physical arts such as aikido, Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, taiji and pretty much any other such discipline should be experienced, hands-on, before proceeding to analyze them? These are not armchair pursuits, but physical skills that must be felt, internalized and committed to neuromuscular memory. Discussion of their mechanics is more productive after you have a point of reference. Same reason why I don't read critics' reviews until after I've seen the movie.

Intellectualizing in a vacuum is a kind of mental-verbal masturbation. You have only your existing experiences from which to draw. There is no common ground on which others can connect with you.

Get thee to the dojo. Or go train with Mike. Feel, do, learn. Then talk. Probably, your posts will then be more questions than statements.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-01-2006 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:50 PM   #327
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Get thee to the dojo. Or go train with Mike. Feel, do, learn. Then talk. Probably, your posts will then be more questions than statements.
Sorry, I'm out of this one. If Erick wants to explore, he'll have to do it with Dan or Akuzawa or whomever. I only do training when I feel like it.

Regards,

Mike "Burned Bridges" Sigman
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:52 PM   #328
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Note the winking "smiley," Mike.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:23 PM   #329
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
...
The principle of juji tells me that aikido technique is applied without any component of force in-line and directly resisting. ...
Erick,

Could you give a little background on the principle of juji? New term for me and google wasn't giving anything that helped.
Thanks,
Mark
Such a simple question ...

Juji [ 十 字 ] is the "cross shape." It means perpendicularity; the number ten; symbolizes connection without conflict; complementarity; the meeting of of heaven (vertical) and earth (horizontal), which intersect at the center.

Those all suggest the physical or mechanical manifestations of technique according to the juji priinciple. There are deeper and more psychological aspects of this teaching that confirm my interpretation, at least as I see it.

O Sensei, in one Doka, even referred to the art as [ 十 字 道 ]"jujido" "Way of the Cross-Shape" and mentioned the Cross-Shape in several other places in the Doka also.

From Abe Sensei's translation:
Quote:
O Sensei Doka wrote:
The spiritual essence of the Heavens and Earth
Congealing becomes the Way of the Cross-Shape +
Harmony and Joy make up the Floating Bridge
That binds this world together.

The "Cross Of Aiki" (Love-Ki)
Of the structure of the Great and Swift God
The meritorious deeds (samuhara) of the
God of the Eight Powers.

Ah, the precious Izu and Mizu
Together, the Cross of Aiki
Advance with courage
In the voice of Mizu
The eight powers are the hachi-riki. of the formula "ichi-rei, shikon, sangen, hachi-riki." "One spirit, four souls, three origins, eight powers." The One Spirit is the One Creator God (according to Omoto/Shinto metaphysical teaching) or the True Self according to other more psychological interpretations.

According to one interpretation (Stevens) Izu and Mizu symbolized by the joined lines are the male and female principles, in/yo, Mother and Father figures of creative aikido technique. According to another ( Abe Sensei) Izu and Mizu are the ura and omote principles of the Ichi-rei - Mizu is principle manifest, Izu is principle hidden. An image of Earth/Heaven or Tenchi intersecting at the center.

Juji can thus also be metaphysically (or psychologically) considered (based on the second Doka) to represent the intersection of the Shikon (four souls) as one Spirit. The four souls can be mapped onto the eight powers as an in/yo exposition.

The four souls are:

Ara-mitama -- prinicple of boldness, willingness, resolve, perseverance, diligence, and fortitude.
Nigi-mitama -- priniciple of affinity, peace, discipline, order, governance and association.
Sachi-mitama -- prinicple of love, benefit, creation, production, evolution, and nurture.
Kushi-mitama -- princple of wisdom, skill, sensibility, observation, awareness, and enlightenment.

The eight powers are (in roughly the same order as their relationship to the four souls)

Moving -- Stilling
Contracting -- Expanding
Dissolving -- Congealing
Combining -- Dividing

The sangen (three origins) in Omoto thought are aspects of this cyclic connection function of musubi:

Iku-musubi: harmonization, vapor, fluidity;
Tara-musubi: inhalation, liquid, unification;
Tamatsume-musubi: exhalation, solid, solidity;

O Sensei identified the image of juji with the concept of musubi "connection"

These map onto another formula of O Sensei's "Masakatsu Agatsu Katsuhayabi." "True victory. Self victory. Day of swift victory."
Quote:
O Sensei "Take musu Aiki" wrote:
Masakatsu represents the masculine fire element of the left; Agatsu stands for the feminine water element of the right; Katsu-hayabi is the perfect combination of both that empowers the techniques.
Musubi takes "self" (vertical) and "other" (horizontal) and joins them into a whole (juji) without destroying the essence of either.

Understood in this way, the juji + image ties the whole "Ichi-rei ..." formula together and links it with several other of O Sensei's prominent teaching concepts.

So to comport with the principle of juji from the metaphysical or pscychological interpretation - aikido movement and technique must be at once bold, orderly, accommodating and calculated.

Or expressed differently, determined, non-conflicting, accepting of change, and subtle.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:58 PM   #330
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Note the winking "smiley," Mike.
Yeah, but I was replying to your initial post, before you editted it, suggesting Dan or me.

Mike
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Old 12-01-2006, 06:07 PM   #331
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Oh. Oops. Sorry about that. The wink was indicating that either of you would likely not care for the prospect of going-round-in-circles chatter on the mats. I just yanked Dan on second thought because he wasn't part of this discussion. I see the discussion is still going on without either of you now...
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Old 12-01-2006, 07:14 PM   #332
David Orange
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Um, I'm pretty familiar with the term "Ki" and it's applications to martial arts........but what in the sam hill is Jin? Just another name for it?
Mikel,

Jin is a Chinese concept of martial strength. It refers to a combination of muscular power and ki.

It's a core concept of Chinese martial arts and relatable to Japanese arts.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 12-01-2006, 07:57 PM   #333
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Juji [ ? ? ] is the "cross shape." It means perpendicularity; the number ten; symbolizes connection without conflict; complementarity; the meeting of of heaven (vertical) and earth (horizontal), which intersect at the center.
Mochizuki Sensei used to talk about that, too. He phrased the vertical as the relation between Heaven, Earth and Man and the the horizontal as the relation between people.

He also had an interesting idea about yin-yang, expressed by triangles. Yang was the up-pointing triangle and yin the downward-pointing triangle. Combined, the form the star of David as a depiction of yin-yang.

Showing this, he mimed astonishment. He liked to clown around a little when telling stories, but he had an interesting one about Sarutan Hiko and the tengu.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 12-01-2006, 08:36 PM   #334
David Orange
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China as the Source of Japanese Martial Arts

Several posts back, the idea was brought up by Mike Sigman that China is the source of all things Japanese. Some others picked up on it with a few comments but I didn't have a chance to address those things at that time.

Since then, I got an advertisement from Amazon for a book on Judo and when I followed up on it a bit, it lead to a book called "Mind Over Muscle: Writings from the Founder of Judo ," in which Jigoro Kano dismisses the idea of Chinese martial arts being the source of Japanese arts:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/4770...45#reader-link

on that page, look to the box on the left and click on "excerpt" to read that section.

Also, undermining the idea of China as the source of the aiki arts is Ellis Amdur's blog on Aikido Journal called "Genesis - A Speculative History of Daito-ryu, Part I: That Dog Won't Hunt," by Chris Laughrun and Ellis Amdur at:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2610

I won't summarize either argument but will give some comments of my own.

First, Japan was a very closed society and when they did go out, they usually went out to attack another country. And, most often, they conquered that nation. How many times did the jump on China and dominate it? And Korea?

Even if there were some technical martial influence from China, they would have modified it extensively for two reasons: first, to make it more powerful and effective; second, to make it inscrutable to the Chinese and Koreans, so that those nations would not know how to fight it.

Another very good reason is that the Japanese of that era really did believe themselves the land of the Gods and the people of the Gods. They believed that what the created was superior to anything anyone else had created. I believe that the greatest part of the Chnese influence on Japanese martial arts was purely philosophical. Samurai generals studied I Ching and Sun Tzu, but they created their own sword and their own way of using it, plus their own hand-to-hand fighting, based on an oponent wearing armor and with a first consideration that that oponent would be using a samurai sword.

Where is the Chinese equivalent of Sumo?

Mochizuki Sensei went to great lengths to state that jujutsu was an original, indigenous creation of the Japanese, illustrating how a "smaller people" used the cultural traits of "perseverence and creativity" to produce a means of overcoming and controling larger, stronger oponents.

In addition, I still maintain that I have never seen or experienced anything in Japanese martial artists like the things I have seen and experienced from Chinese martial artists.

Some people have referred to O-Sensei's and Shioda's chest-push as an equivalent to tai chi's push-hands maneuver which commonly sends the oponent up and backward several feet. While I will agree that there is some similarity there, the fact remains that these methods have very different qualities. For one thing, the aiki-influenced attackers generally go up, point head-down and fall to the floor, while the recipient of a Chinese-style repulsion tend to fly up and backward in an upright position, as if standing in the air, and they land on their feet, even if they have to take several staggering steps back to dissipate their momentum. Aiki recipients dissipate their momentum instantly in the ground.

Along with this, there is a different quality to their paths through the air. I once was repelled by a Chinese stylist and the feeling was like being picked up by an ocean wave, moved back several feet on a smooth curve, and deposited back on the ground. Obviously, he could have used a shocking method, but I have never felt anything like that from a Japanese martial artist in 34 years of meeting many, many of them.

Another example, I tried to enter for seoi nage on a Chinese stylist and felt something within him drop several inches. It felt as if an iron ball, weighing 80 or 100 pounds, dropped straight down inside him, about 24 inches, from about his upper chest to the bottom of his abdomen, and he was immovable.

I've never felt anything like that from a Japanese artist.

But using Chinese approaches from tai chi, I have "popped" a fellow effortlessly up and back across the hallway, just as I've seen in tai chi video clips, as if he were standing in the air, flying backward.

Another time, using a tai chi tactic in an aikido class, I received a middle punch with a rollback kind of shifting the weight to the back foot and moving my torso back several inches. I caught his punching wrist with my rear hand and looped my forward hand over his neck. I then moved his punching arm across his body as I turned his head in the same direction so that he was leaning forward with his arm crossing his body and his head turned in the same direction. To be able to continue those motions, I shifted my weight back toward him. His body popped off the floor and the coiling "unwrapped," so that he spun around horizontally as he rose up, then fell straight down. It was spontaneous improvisation on my part, but it was straight out of tai chi movement. And everyone who saw it knew that it wasn't aikido.

I once believed that the Japanese arts did sort of migrate from China, but after living in Japan, knowing and training with Mochizuki Sensei and understanding Jigoro Kano's ideas through him, I am well persuaded that the Japanese arts express completely different approaches to human movement and owe only a general philosophical approach to the Chinese arts.

Other than that, to get back to a common root, it's that both approaches can be seen in the movements of toddlers when they learn to stand and walk.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:51 PM   #335
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Re: China as the Source of Japanese Martial Arts

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Several posts back, the idea was brought up by Mike Sigman that China is the source of all things Japanese.
David, if you want to debate the issue, move it to another thread. And don't start off with "the idea was brought up by Mike Sigman"... let's see the exact quote. And put on your padded underwear, because you're about to get spanked again.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:53 PM   #336
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Being that this thread is on learning natural movement,
In an aikido forum, I might add.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
... might I offer that physical arts such as aikido, Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, taiji and pretty much any other such discipline should be experienced, hands-on, before proceeding to analyze them?
You may. I may not however, since I practice aikido and have struggled to keep the discussion of natural movement in that context. I have not ( and would not attempt) to analyze these other arts -- I have only noted that some reported differences between them and aikido demonstrate consistency with my understanding of the distinguishing features of aikido.

At the same time, I have attempted, at some length, to get their perspective of the finer points of taiji, the qigongs, and other arcane Chinese topics (for the average aikidoka), on some neutral cultural common ground -- such as physics or mechanical concepts, precisely to get apples to apples comparisons without the heavily culturally conditioned terms of art intervening or obscuring. To little avail with the acolytes of peng-jin, I might also add.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Intellectualizing in a vacuum is a kind of mental-verbal masturbation.
To paraphrase Diogenes -- if only rubbing my stomach would likewise end my hunger...
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
You have only your existing experiences from which to draw.
A limitation which I happily do not observe. Only the fool learns only from his own mistakes.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
There is no common ground on which others can connect with you.
Physics is probably a good idea. Worked for the Chinese space program ...
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Feel, do, learn.
Yeah. Have done. in Aikido. Since about 1985.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Then talk. Probably, your posts will then be more questions than statements.
Careful now. You are talking to a lawyer. You don't want me asking serious questions, them's the sharp knives.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:22 PM   #337
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Re: China as the Source of Japanese Martial Arts

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Several posts back, the idea was brought up by Mike Sigman that China is the source of all things Japanese.... Jigoro Kano dismisses the idea of Chinese martial arts being the source of Japanese arts.
...
Where is the Chinese equivalent of Sumo?
...
Mochizuki Sensei went to great lengths to state that jujutsu was an original, indigenous creation of the Japanese, illustrating how a "smaller people" used the cultural traits of "perseverence and creativity" to produce a means of overcoming and controling larger, stronger oponents.
Japanese language is related, if is related to anything, to the Altaic tongues of Mongolia. Korean is likewise uncertainly placed in a language family but the Altaic languages are generally deemed to be most likely closest relation to it as well. The Japanese and Koreans have a consitutional dislike of each other that is just too intense for there not to be some close relation back there.

And oddly enough one can see in the movements of Boke, traditional Mongolian wrestling, strong elements that hark to both sumo and judo/jujutsu, and very much in line with David's observations on the differences between Chinese and jujutsu lineage arts.

Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB6WISba5M

It is not hard to see in this a harking back to some common progenitor.

There is even a very short tag clip, at the very end, of some of European sumo matches for comparison (Russian, by the look of it, I think).
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Other than that, to get back to a common root, it's that both approaches can be seen in the movements of toddlers when they learn to stand and walk.
Of course, Mongolians ride before they walk -- so that can't be it ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:14 PM   #338
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Erick,
I come from a family of lawyers, including my mother. Believe me, I know. Western law attracts the verbose.

Anyway, here's a tidbit of related advice from my notebook -- it's from Dong YingJie (T'ung Ying-chieh), one of two top disciples of taiji master Yang Chengfu. We may substitute "Taijiquan" with aikido or any other discipline:

Talking about Taijiquan in lieu of practicing apparently is not restricted to the state of the art here today. Tung Ying Jie advised students several decades ago that, in the beginning, a student should concentrate on listening and learning the correct forms from a competent master before getting too involved in pointless discussions on theory or the philosophy of Taiji. A certain maturity of practice is needed for one to be able to comprehend and discuss principles of the practice.
There is no shortcut around long, hard, lonely practice.
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:37 PM   #339
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
I come from a family of lawyers, including my mother. ...
Then you must have a lovely mother ..
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Western law attracts the verbose.
The lonely words need friends, too ...
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Anyway, here's a tidbit of related advice from my notebook ...
A certain maturity of practice is needed for one to be able to comprehend and discuss principles of the practice.
There is no shortcut around long, hard, lonely practice.
And your assumption underlying that bit of advice, would be???
Do speak plainly.

On your main point, I simply refer you here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=34

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-01-2006 at 10:47 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:27 AM   #340
Mike Hamer
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Basically, "Ki" is a pretty generic term that can include doing things with no physical aspects, within the body. However, if you do something with a bona fide use of ki and someone can feel or test it, that physical manifestation is known as "jin" in Chinese. I use the term because "ki" is so non-specific it gets the anti-woo-woo guys all frothed up if I say something like "Tohei stopped the push with his ki".

Mike

Thanks, kinda like the unbendable arm then, gotcha.

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 12-02-2006, 08:02 AM   #341
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quoting myself:
Quote:
Beautiful explanation sir. But, as in the example of the reversible efficiency of engines being used to describe thermodynamic properties, can you build a bicycle that will Not stay up to prove your principle?
I asked that obtuse question to make a point:

Some fields of inquiry do not lend themselves to objective analysis. When you remove the principles from their context they lose their meaning. This is so true that, to my knowledge, no one has been able to Describe the Principle of why bicycles stay up well enough to Remove that principle from a "working" model such that the bicycle can not be ridden.

Many people call such fields of inquiry Arts.

David
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Old 12-02-2006, 08:46 AM   #342
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Quoting myself:
Quote:
as in the example of the reversible efficiency of engines being used to describe thermodynamic properties, can you build a bicycle that will Not stay up to prove your principle?
I asked that obtuse question to make a point:

Some fields of inquiry do not lend themselves to objective analysis.
But aikido is an objective art as well as a subjective art. He left guidepposts of that endeavor as well, but it was never divorced from his objective art. O Sensei did not stop practicing the objective forms even while he delved into their subjective depths in his later years.

To extend your metaphor -- you need both wheels to stay up, both must be turning together and they must be in line with one another.
Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
When you remove the principles from their context they lose their meaning.
If that were so, then they would not be principles -- they would be mere description, limited to the things they specifically describe.

Valid principles are applicable well beyond the immediate context of their development.
Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Many people call such fields of inquiry Arts.
Yes, science and mechanics are among those Arts. Not everything, even there, has ben reduced to mere computation.

The principles of aikido and physical mechanics have much to inform one another. Neither is, by any means, limited to that context.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-02-2006, 01:02 PM   #343
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Eric

I can't even slog through one of your descriptions. I left my slide rule at the office.
Without debating semantics and the varying cognative abilities to extrapolate just what the heck it is you are saying as oppossed to actually doing, I usually offer a simple test.
Its not high level or anything and it keeps the conversation friendly in regards to just who is understading what. I posted this on E-budo last year to try and end some squablling.

Kidding aside, and for curiousity sake.
1. Can you stand in a room and have a 225 pound guy push on your chest without you moving?
2. Can you let someone push on the side of your head while you stand there?
3. Let somone pile drive into you and they bounce off?

Again these are just some simple things I do at the gym and at constructions sites. How about at a dojo?
1. Can you let a judoka try and play you without you using any technique at all and when he tries to throw you he gets a feeling that he is locking himself up and he can't throw you?
2. give somone and arm and try to lock you up and they canlt do anything with it?

In the nicest, friendliest way....and I trust in most folks Honesty in these....If you can do these simple things, then I don't care who we are or what we do we... perhaps we are doing similar things. If not we shoud be asking more questions or visiting folks to find out it.

No lawyer speak now, I get enough of that at the office as well.

Mike
No mentioning they can be undone ...we both know that. But, thats not the point of the quesiton to Eric.
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-02-2006 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 12-02-2006, 01:12 PM   #344
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Kidding aside, and for curiousity sake.
1. Can you stand in a room and have a 2225 pound guy push on your chest without you moving?
Unashamedly, I have to admit that this one I can't do. You obviously have bigger guys in Massachusetts than we do here in backward, ignorant Colorado. Oh pooh, you caught your error and eitted it.
Quote:
Mike
No mentioning they can be undone ...we both know that. But, thats not the point of the quesiton to Eric.
Here's my problem, Dan. You know as well as I do that I can move you in these positions without any big deal.... and so can a number of other people. What you need to do is assume that the person you're talking to has reasonable intelligence and honesty (someone like Erick may try to split hairs, but that's just something you gotta live with).... when you say that you can stand there and a 225-pound man can't move you, etc., you need to simply say that it's a 225-pound person that doesn't understand jin.

Think of it like this: I happen to know a lot of people with jin skills and if I posted something like you did where I didn't stipulate that someone understanding jin could probably move me, etc., they'd think I'd lost myself deep inside my own press. Just state things straight-out and honestly. Everyone will appreciate you the more for it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-02-2006, 01:51 PM   #345
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Erick,

I'm the fool, because I went around with you about this on another thread and in some private posts.

I'm trying to get across that it simply is not practical to delve into this topic at the level of analysis to which you are carrying it. Did I forget to capitalize Meaning when I mentioned the problem of pulling principles out of context? Diagramming sentences is fine, and art appreciation classes are fine, but there is a time to simply listen to the poem, or go to the museum and not read the titles or descriptions of the paintings on the wall -- something is lost when you do.

Fool that I am I'll try again - electricity can be mathematically described and used at very refined levels - but science can not really describe how it works, or even which way current flows in a wire.

Honor intuition. Understanding at detailed levels is not required for many things in life. I never took physics, but I'm a good driver.

How'm I doing? Still sounding foolish?

David

ps - Hope to see you at winter intensive in St. Pete.dk
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:14 PM   #346
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Mike
Duh...Of course thats what I'm talking about!

Do I find IMA guys at the gym? Thats playing.
Playing (with two guys who use internal skiills) is a different topic.
I have two guys who are a handful when we go at it. I still win, but not for long I'd bet. And further still I can teach someone to uproot a simple rooting test anyway, and better still ways to connect in motion that are pretty potent. My point is never about that. Its not about comparing or drawing you into it. I'm arguing for those who don't believe they exist at all.

Internal to internal becomes a test of who can use them better. But even then....TheSkills are the superior entity......... not us.

I applaud the skills,Mike... not us ....who are simply learning them.
In grand scheme... we don't matter

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-02-2006 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:24 PM   #347
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mike
Duh...Of course thats what I'm talking about!

Do I find IMA guys at the gym?
Playing (with two guys who use internal skiills) is a different topic.
I have two guys who are a handful when we go at it. I still win, but not for long I'd bet.
Internal to internal becomes a test of who can use it better. But even then..They are the superior skills......... not us.
I applaud the skills not us who are learning them.
Dan
Hi Dan:

A couple of comments:

Many of your early examples indicate that your own students, etc., could not move you... in which case you were either not showing them how to do something or you were magical or they are slow-witted, etc. The "of course you're showing" has been obvious to me, but not to the dear readers of the forum.

It's not a case always of "who can do it better", because there are levels of skills and various tricks .... it's not some simple subject that someone can learn and add to their already fine martial arts. In many cases it takes a number of years to get beyond these simple jin tricks, so maybe "who can do it better" is sometimes applicable, but often it's "who knows how to do more skills with these things.... skills that are difficult to find out how to do, etc.".

My point is that, depending on what you know, you should at least be careful not to leave the impression that this is indeed some minor subset of skills. One would get the impression, for instance, that your skills were equal to Wang Hai Jun's because of the way you usually discuss what you can do and not what others can do. Of course, maybe I misread your intent.


FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-02-2006, 03:26 PM   #348
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Stands to reason that students learn to do the stuff first, before they learn how to un-do them, Mike. Depending on their particular level of skill, they can reverse and un-do various things; others will take more time. It's not that students "aren't shown," but that they're not at that point of training yet. You know that, though.

In pretty much any art, skilled practitioners get to the point where they can "play" with others of their skill level, and it becomes a matter of who gets in first, who gets in the quickest, who's on his game better that day, etc. Just like chess masters. Sometimes you play to a draw, sometimes you win, some times you lose.

As an aside, why do you call everything "tricks," which implies some kind of deception. These are all viable exercises to develop skills and resources that can be applied to combat (or non-combat), not parlor games. Though of course they can be presented that way. Do you see them as deceptions, games and entertainment, or as part of viable integrated fighting skills? Or both?

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-02-2006 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 12-02-2006, 03:52 PM   #349
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Stands to reason that students learn to do the stuff first, before they learn how to un-do them, Mike. Depending on their particular level of skill, they can reverse and un-do various things; others will take more time. It's not that students "aren't shown," but that they're not at that point of training yet. You know that, though.
Hi Cady:

Well, I'll certainly consider your opinion. You have to understand that while I know what Dan, Rob, Ushiro, and others are doing in a general sense (because the basic principles can't be avoided), I don't know each person's general area of skill-levels unless I look, see, or get some clue, to some extent. It's fairly easy to rule out the ones who don't really have any skills in this area and it's fairly easy to tell who does have *some* skills. Exactly what those level of skills are can only be extrapolated by the things they claim, who they go see, tangential remarks, etc.... not desireably precise. What someone really knows and what their insight is into the training is a big guess. Take, for instance, Ushiro Sensei's approach through the Sanchin kata. I understand that approach, but I don't think it's sufficiently de-mystifying that a lot of people are going to get much useable out of it. So if you say that I understand generally what a westerner who is going to be *shown* the Sanchin approach will know at a given time, all I can say is "maybe" or "generally", depending on a few factors. Same with Dan's understanding... other than the indication that he has some grasp of jin skills and body structure, I really don't know much about his level. From a few things he has said, I would surmise (to a reasonable probability) that he has a different approach and interest than I do, overall. In short... no, I don't know what you're saying and it shouldn't take long at all to learn how to do and to defeat some of the things Dan has mentioned, *in my opinion*.
Quote:
As an aside, why do you call everything "tricks," which implies some kind of deception. These are all viable exercises to develop skills and resources that can be applied to combat (or non-combat), not parlor games. Though of course they can be presented that way. Do you see them as deceptions, games and entertainment, or as part of viable integrated fighting skills? Or both?
I use the term in the sense that "many people can punch hard, but if they learn a few tricks of the trade they can learn to punch even harder". I.e., I don't use the term to imply a deception. HOWEVER.... if someone is dangling jin tricks as something otherworldly and as a "koryu secret", etc., I use the term to minimalize the importance. I am admittedly irreverent, sadly.

Mike
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Old 12-02-2006, 04:10 PM   #350
David Orange
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Re: China as the Source of Japanese Martial Arts

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, if you want to debate the issue, move it to another thread. And don't start off with "the idea was brought up by Mike Sigman"... let's see the exact quote. And put on your padded underwear, because you're about to get spanked again.
Mike, I don't know what you're spanking but it's not me.

I don't know why that idea should be taken to another thread since you and others have already commented on it extensively on this thread--after hijacking it, as usual, from its true topic.

But here are the quotes to which I was refering:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Even the "demo's" of qi abilities are the same in Chinese and Japanese. Every demo Tohei and Ueshiba did has an obvious counterpart in China. You simply are missing the obvious, no matter what you think you know of Aikido. How do you explain Ueshiba's demo's being pretty much exactly the same as the Chinese coincidence in every case? Coincidence?...You seem to want to forget the almost complete dependence in Japanese lore and cosmology on the Chinese way of doing things.... including in the Kojiki. Not "equatable"????? This is crazy.
So that's exactly what I was refering to and I gave examples countering your claims. I don't see anything more than passingly similar in Ueshiba and Tohei's demos and Chinese-style exhibitions.

Now go spank yourself.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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