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Old 11-30-2006, 08:51 AM   #301
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

The movement, and more importantly the body method behind it is expressed in Shiodas technique ...ala Daito ryu. In fact the rebounding is from an establishment of a current- the same as Mike's "ground path" (can't find a TM font) description and using that path as an internal spring. It is a training tool in DR. Which Ark knows about as well.
Whether it is Hiriki or chest matters not. So is the knee technique he uses. Its DR. and.......its in Tai chi.Gee what a surprise.
It also fits in with Hongs quote
"Without peng-jin, there is no taiji."

Sometimes I wish I were shorter though
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-30-2006 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:11 AM   #302
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
The movement, and more importantly the body method behind it is expressed in Shiodas technique ...ala Daito ryu. In fact the rebounding is from an establishment of a current- the same as Mike's "ground path" (can't find a TM font) description and using that path as an internal spring. It is a training tool in DR. Which Ark knows about as well.
Whether it is Hiriki or chest matters not. So is the knee technique he uses. Its DR. and.......its in Tai chi.Gee what a surprise.
It's in most Chinese martial arts. It's the basis for "Swallow and Spit". I could point out 3 or 4 ways to really boost that power... i.e., there are variations of that one technique. Some of the variations are very powerful, some wind, etc., etc., etc.... that's where the names for the different jins come in. Variations of the core jin technique.

The core jin force that O-Sensei used is also the correct force that should be used in a "Kokyu Throw". As a matter of fact, this utilization of jin should be in ALL Aikido throws, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The force O-Sensei carries through to his chest from the ground is exactly the same type of force/jin that Tohei uses in his "ki tests". A jin/kokyu-force deriving its support from the solidity of the ground (while the body simply channels that solidity) is what I tend to call a groundpath. A jin/kokyu-force that derives its power from the weight of the body (the body channels the center of weight over to where it's need... more 'mind-body' skills) is the other type of force and sometimes it is complementary (a "push" can be "out of the ground" and "down" at the same time, for instance).

The trick is often in the reflexes and in the methods that power is stored along the path. O-Sensei used a mild bounce into the floor, coupled with his forward, ground-driven body movement in his response to the chest attack (the one he signalled for, so he had plenty of time to set things up, BTW).

In other words, I'm saying that in that simple demo that Ueshiba did, you can see the core force of all of Aikido, Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, Sword arts, Calligraphy, Ju-Jitsu, Daito Ryu, Ushiro's karate, and so on. It's a good thought starter for someone who thought all of this was a complex issue. Look at that video and learn.... all things are the same thing.

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:14 AM   #303
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
"Without peng-jin, there is no taiji."
It's the exact same meaning as Ushiro saying, "No kokyu, no Aikido".

In fact, most western versions of Asian martial arts are mainly external replicas of the techniques (no matter how smoothly done, good timing, etc.). However, we're on the cusp of seeing more and more of these skills returned to the Asian arts. Right now, it looks like Aikido may actually be in the forefront, if things continue.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:30 AM   #304
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

For those who care to follow along or check me in my mechanical analyses of the foregoing videos, the physiological interpretation of postural control I have used is that of active, intermittent, cyclic exploitation of natural static instability for actively dynamic control.

My working mechanical model of natural movement and its relationship to aiki tai-sabaki and technique is along the lines of a double inverted pendulum, dual-eccentric center pivots, and a chaotic, cyclically actuated and damped balance system.

A nice summary of the state of knowledge I am relying on with regard to contending physical theories of human posture and balance control is found here (with further references cited):

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1456057

The state of the art described in that summary challenges seriously the thoughts that fascial mechanical stiffness or manipulations of tensions (respectively, -- passively, the "spring" model -- actively, the "actuated spring" model) can physically explain what some claim that it does in a static equlibirum forces model. There is diminishing support and increasing experimental contradiction of the mechanical stiffness or spring model as a physical theory of postural control.

The mind is an unavoidable component of the postural system's effectiveness, so as useful training imagery that model may well do the trick. A singing coach talks about singing "from the head" and "not the chest" (exceedingly useful stuff, BTW), to enable an unconscious kinesthetic adjustment by means of conscious imagery -- but it has no connection to anything physical that is occurring.

The more I look at it, the more I find that understanding how uchi and soto variations operate in performing responsive jiyu-waza technique, fundamentally illustrate how the kokyu principles tutilized in aikido operate -- at both an isolated joint/limb scale and at a global whole-body scale. (I do not debate that there may be other uses of kokyu principles, but that is not my concern). There are responsive and complementary rotations that can be met (irimi), matched (tenkan), re-oriented (juji) then driven (either tenkan ir irimi) -- to cascade through the entire system of articulation.

The observations from uchi and soto turn variations in tai-sabaki for given techniques are directly cognate (although different in detail) to the tanemura-ha and shimamura-ha variations in sword work. These also manipulate the dual eccentricity of the hip joints, and a complementary rotation cascade in the joints. Suri-age and suri-otoshi are ikkyo variations that play on these differential and eccentric rotations with an additional joint/limb extension (the blade).

That is why I see aiki principles and their intimate relationship with the innovative nature of Japanese sword-work parting company, at the very least at the descriptive level, from the interpretations according to traditional Chinese natural philosophy.

A very successful, and commonly used image (along the lines of the model I am using) is of performing technique "as if holding the sword" It usually corrects a host of problems with a given technique in a very intuitively satsifying way for the student. It can also typcially be demonstrated -- with the sword in hand.

I can see why the image of spring (fascial) tensions and manipulations is temptingly suggestive in interpeting action from grasp-to-joint-to-tanden. There is no such temptation in interpreting the sword-work, where there is only contact and differential rotation(s). The last thing I want my blade (or my connection with it) to become is any kind of "spring."

A significant problem with the fascial tensions or "springs" model is that it seems not to be intuitively obvious or easily described. Perhaps for this very reason, it is not very easily communicated conceptually. I do not debate that the "feel" of it as promoted by its various advocates here may be very effective in translating the imagery that they use, but it also has serious conceptual problems as a physical model, as critically illustrated in the summary cited above.

The imagery and the physicality along the lines of the rotational motion and cyclic stability control model allow for a closer to one-to-one comparison of image to mechanical theory, and which is not linguistically or culturally colored. That is very much not the case in attempting to utilize Chinese natural philosophy concepts and its attendant imagery, back-translated through two other languages (Japanese an English) and the attendant (and sometimes contradictory) imagery of those two other cultures, and the frequently arcane or specialized usage (compared with ordinary Japanese usage) of terminology of the martial arts (whether in Chinese, Japanese or English).

Whether a technical rendering of the physical model is more or less complex as the Chinese natural philosophy rendering is, is quite beside the point. The simplistic fact is that the imagery model of sword-work illustrates the kokyu principles of aikido better and more clearly, in ways that students find more intuitively obvious, and which corrects critically important, rotational and orientational control problems in movement and technique. This may be, quite simply, because they map better onto the actual physical interactions in the employment of kokyu principles in aikido tai-jutsu, in the first place.

I know, I know .. it's just "relaxed jin"... that explains everything.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:38 AM   #305
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

In other words, you don't understand what jin is or you wouldn't be off into these lengthy diatribes? It's just simple jin manipulation (although there are some cute ways to accomplish jin manipulation and there are some simple, less-powerful ones). Mind controls the sourcing and application points of a jin path. Too many people reading this forum and others can do this to make it such a lengthy, torturous process, Erick.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:35 AM   #306
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Dan, don't worry. If it's any consolation, Kuroda Tetsuzan writes in his books that body shape and composition become irrelevant once the body has learnt the correct kata motions. :-) The same thing applies to weapon length...

Mike, I hope this isn't a tangent. But most of the JMA people who've displayed skills haven't been particularly large fellows - Ueshiba was reputed to have been very strong, but Shioda doesn't come across as a weighty man, nor does Sagawa (nor Abe Seiseki or Kuroda Tetsuzan, but I am not sure how "good" they are compared to the well-known guys). Akuzawa is pretty strong in the lower body, and you've mentioned the CMA people being very big there too. Do you think this is a variation/specialist use of the body that is making a difference here, or more simply a matter of us seeing the good people when they were already old and had lost a lot of muscle mass? (maybe in Japan although one can add and use extra muscle if one has the movements correct, it wasn't needed and emphasis was on technique, particularly sword?)
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:57 AM   #307
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Mike, I hope this isn't a tangent. But most of the JMA people who've displayed skills haven't been particularly large fellows - Ueshiba was reputed to have been very strong, but Shioda doesn't come across as a weighty man, nor does Sagawa (nor Abe Seiseki or Kuroda Tetsuzan, but I am not sure how "good" they are compared to the well-known guys). Akuzawa is pretty strong in the lower body, and you've mentioned the CMA people being very big there too. Do you think this is a variation/specialist use of the body that is making a difference here, or more simply a matter of us seeing the good people when they were already old and had lost a lot of muscle mass? (maybe in Japan although one can add and use extra muscle if one has the movements correct, it wasn't needed and emphasis was on technique, particularly sword?)
I dunno, Gernot. I think a variety of factors enter here. In a lot of ways, we could say that the use of jin and ki-development is a sort of trick that gives you strength without requiring bulk and it utilizes highly efficient body-mechanics. So a person who is "not too physically big" only tells you something if you instinctively relate "strong" and "bulk", the way most of us automatically do.

The big thing is jin, in terms of a rapid advantage. If you know how to manipulate jin, even rudimentarily and with the addition of a lot of muscle, you have an advantage that the uninformed can't understand very well. This is a key point.... the reluctance to show people how to do the ki/kokyu things has to do with not giving away the edge to just anyone. Notice that Ueshiba famously didn't share how to do these things except with a very select few, and even then, I'd bet he kept a number of the skills to himself.

There are some pictures of some Chinese guys with "qi skills" that I think of. A surprising number of them are skinny (although an appreciable number can be bulky, too). The real ki skills can be thought of as necessarily tied to the type of fascia development done through breathing, beating the body, stretching (yes, that's almost definitely a part of the real Yoga tradition, Japanese dance, etc., etc.), and so on. If we make a sort of general comparison of the "fascia" as related to a piece of rawhide (the semi-translucent scraped raw hide that is stretched, for example, over the head of a drum), we can intuitively understand that for the toughest rawhide, we want a range-fed steer, not the plump, grain-fed family pet that live in the feed-yard. Fat in the tissue weakens the ki/fascia structure, so the really strong guys are almost always unusually thin, by most comparisons. It's that type of thinness that enters into the equationof what you're asking. Old age, deliberate thinness, etc., etc., is a question I often have when I'm trying to evaluate some "old master". Are they just atrophying or are they exhibiting the deliberate thinness of some of the qigong/martial practitioners who have sinews like steel?

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:08 PM   #308
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Um, I'm pretty familiar with the term "Ki" and it's applications to martial arts........but what in the sam hill is Jin? Just another name for it?

To speak ill of anything is against the nature of Aikido
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:17 PM   #309
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mikel Hamer wrote:
Um, I'm pretty familiar with the term "Ki" and it's applications to martial arts........but what in the sam hill is Jin? Just another name for it?
Basically, "Ki" is a pretty generic term that can include doing things with no physical aspects, within the body. However, if you do something with a bona fide use of ki and someone can feel or test it, that physical manifestation is known as "jin" in Chinese. I use the term because "ki" is so non-specific it gets the anti-woo-woo guys all frothed up if I say something like "Tohei stopped the push with his ki".

Mike
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:34 PM   #310
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In other words, you don't understand what jin is or you wouldn't be off into these lengthy diatribes? It's just simple jin manipulation (although there are some cute ways to accomplish jin manipulation and there are some simple, less-powerful ones). Mind controls the sourcing and application points of a jin path. Too many people reading this forum and others can do this to make it such a lengthy, torturous process, Erick.
My issue is not applicability. I have great respect for Chinese traditional knowledge in application. Maybe we are talking about the same things, maybe not, but jin (as you describe it) does not appear from all evidence I can gather to be mechanically sound -- if it is intended to be a mechanical concept.

I don't think it has to be in order to be useful as a concept, but I question the limits of it usefulness, either way. That does not mean that your imagery does not teach or that your methods are ineffective. I don't have to agree with one voice coach's imagery to learn to sing well, either.

The point is two fold --

1) Utility -- What is better to aid in teaching and transmitting the aiki concepts to the widest possible audience?

2) Corroboration -- Does the concept have corroborational support in a widely-understood field for reference to illustrate concepts in physical application, or to check or to suggest novel ideas of application?

In Shanghai, I might defer to you and the Chinese traditional approach on both points, (although, the Chinese do not fly planes that way). I am very sorry, but the concept and operation of jin as you describe it is not mutually intelligible to the concepts and operation of Western mechanics, and fails on both points when used over here.

Your "chest push" description approached it but then veered back in to the terms of art, instead of describing plain motion. There is another video of the same demonstration (maybe later on in the first one I linked) in which O Sensei is doing the same thing but nearly up on tippy-toes, so the "rooting" ground path you are talking about is not operating, or at least, not in the same way.

The rotational moment model I am talking about explains, mechnically, technique performed with nothing but one the ball of one big toe in contact with the ground. I think Shioda had some thing important to say about that in reference to chushin-ryoku, actually. The "center axis" image running though his works is much more in line with this mechanical concept than the jin model is.

Maybe you or someone else can persuade me from this model. I do many of the things you describe and have represented in various videos in this and other discussions as "relaxed jin" in operation. Whether I do them as well as, or better, or worse than others remains to be seen (as if I were competing here.). But that is hardly the point, either.

I just differ with you on my understanding of how or by what means they are done, or the means to describe or analyze how they are done. If I were not convinced that you all do them and have information to aid me in my attempts to better describe them I would, quite frankly, ignore you. Why the resistance to an expansion of knowledge or its comprehension in this manner?

I could be wrong in my assesment of the mechanics, but so far I see no evidence of it. I have said that my understanding of the Chinese concepts is academic, and my understanding of movement is mostly from aikido. While I understand the academic concepts you present, your images do nothing for me in terms of what I feel when I do the types of movements you speak of and which have been illustrated. What likelihood should I then ascribe to any other person, without such cultural familarity, ever finding them uesful in learning?

This is very much in keeping with the objections stated here about the uses of "kokyu" in common Japanese usage differing from its usage in martial arts circles. Terms of art require definition to be intelligbile outside the sphere of their application. The same is true in all three languages, much less between them. I doubt seriously you know what vortex ring state is either, but it will surely kill you just the same.

As some of you have described your reaction to such training, I, too, walk and feel very differently having handled a sword for lo these fifteen years, too. Is it the same as you feel differently from your jin training? Maybe, maybe not, as I have never understood what I know how to do in those terms, and find them less than useful in either furthering them in myself or in teaching them to others.

Notwithstanding these observations, if you or anyone else is willing to do so, I would love to engage the jin concept as you understand it to operate physically, in terms of its mechanics in this forum.

If not, by all means, please talk amongst yourselves in whatever terms seem pleasing to you.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-30-2006, 05:09 PM   #311
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The point is two fold --

1) Utility -- What is better to aid in teaching and transmitting the aiki concepts to the widest possible audience?
Hands on with clear instruction. Common sense. Not mathematics.
Quote:
2) Corroboration -- Does the concept have corroborational support in a widely-understood field for reference to illustrate concepts in physical application, or to check or to suggest novel ideas of application?
I think it's been pretty obvious to a number of people over a number of disciplines for many years, Erick. Of course, not everyone has the common sense to see beyond their own perspectives, so 100% is not the claim.
Quote:
Notwithstanding these observations, if you or anyone else is willing to do so, I would love to engage the jin concept as you understand it to operate physically, in terms of its mechanics in this forum.
I dunno. I think you've seen reasonably clear explanations and you've also seen Rob, Dan, me, others, others by inference (like Ushiro) indicate fairly clearly that you need a personal hands on. Your focus on a mathematical or physics breakdown that will go hand in hand with your own perceptions is just more than I can respond to. This has dragged on too long. Maybe if you brought in someone like Akuzawa, Ushiro, etc.?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-30-2006, 07:50 PM   #312
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I dunno, Gernot. I think a variety of factors enter here. In a lot of ways, we could say that the use of jin and ki-development is a sort of trick that gives you strength without requiring bulk and it utilizes highly efficient body-mechanics. So a person who is "not too physically big" only tells you something if you instinctively relate "strong" and "bulk", the way most of us automatically do.
Fair enough, I wasn't expecting a simple answer :-) I had the naive idea that once one develops jin and emphasizes the much higher ROI type training, then one can learn to "use one's body weight" more efficiently. So I assumed that meant one could use extra muscle better too in the paradigm of the jin training (but see below).

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The big thing is jin, in terms of a rapid advantage. If you know how to manipulate jin, even rudimentarily and with the addition of a lot of muscle, you have an advantage that the uninformed can't understand very well. This is a key point.... the reluctance to show people how to do the ki/kokyu things has to do with not giving away the edge to just anyone./../

There are some pictures of some Chinese guys with "qi skills" that I think of. A surprising number of them are skinny (although an appreciable number can be bulky, too). The real ki skills can be thought of as necessarily tied to the type of fascia development done through breathing, beating the body, stretching /../ and so on. If we make a sort of general comparison of the "fascia" as related to a piece of rawhide (the semi-translucent scraped raw hide that is stretched, for example, over the head of a drum), we can intuitively understand that for the toughest rawhide, we want a range-fed steer, not the plump, grain-fed family pet that live in the feed-yard. Fat in the tissue weakens the ki/fascia structure, so the really strong guys are almost always unusually thin, by most comparisons. It's that type of thinness that enters into the equationof what you're asking. Old age, deliberate thinness, etc., etc., is a question I often have when I'm trying to evaluate some "old master". Are they just atrophying or are they exhibiting the deliberate thinness of some of the qigong/martial practitioners who have sinews like steel?
Aha, now I am beginning to feel the void :-) That there is a point of no return - you never go back to the previous type of body, ever! One continues to further and further develop these "ki" aspects of the body. Does that start to approach the "flip in thinking" and lifestyle that people mention when they progress on this path?

It's funny, because last month in ballet class I was mentioning how strong one of the young dancers is (hip, leg development). The reply from my senior was that yes, strong, but wrong: the "stretch training" of ballet needs to take over, and the muscle mass will shrink and his body will become thin - but much stronger. NOt "ki" or "jin" by any means, but certainly tendon and sinew-focussed training.

Thanks for the eye-opening pointers.
Gernot
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Old 11-30-2006, 08:03 PM   #313
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
Aha, now I am beginning to feel the void :-) That there is a point of no return - you never go back to the previous type of body, ever!
Exactly. That's why someone is being ludicrous if they say that they "do these things sometimes when everything clicks", etc. It doesn't work like that. You either do it or you don't. A guy doing obviously external karate can't seriously be "teaching Tai Chi" on the side.
Quote:
One continues to further and further develop these "ki" aspects of the body. Does that start to approach the "flip in thinking" and lifestyle that people mention when they progress on this path?
Personally, I think some people change, but a lot of people are still forever locked in the "Look at Me! Look at Me!" world. These things are skills... anyone can learn them. I know some very big name "masters" who are also self-centered people with "bad heart". I think we begin to grow up when we realize that life is not a fairly tale and there will always be good and bad.
Quote:
It's funny, because last month in ballet class I was mentioning how strong one of the young dancers is (hip, leg development). The reply from my senior was that yes, strong, but wrong: the "stretch training" of ballet needs to take over, and the muscle mass will shrink and his body will become thin - but much stronger. NOt "ki" or "jin" by any means, but certainly tendon and sinew-focussed training.
I've thought about that sort of thing a bit and I agree that the tendon/stretch strength is not something that can only be developed one way. However, I think the Asians systematized it so that they found the most complete and effective ways to develop it all over and inside.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:44 AM   #314
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I dunno. ...you need a personal hands on. ..... Your focus on a mathematical or physics breakdown that will go hand in hand with your own perceptions is just more than I can respond to.
Hm. I gathered that. The same criticism may just as easily be made of the focus on Chinese natural philosophy "that will go hand in hand with your own perceptions."

I give the Chinese systems of knowledge credit on their own terms and that they can and do relate deeply to other spheres of knowledge. Chinese methods with mechanical effects ought to have mutual benefit by exploring them from a mechanical perspective to find those points of relation.

The point was about broadening and finding connections between very differing terms of reference. The point was to increase the possibilities of common understanding and communication of the basis of these types of movements.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hands on with clear instruction. Common sense. Not mathematics.
The thing about common sense is that it's not. Common. Whose terms of art are necessarily "better," or, for that matter, better for what purpose, which I think I made fairly clear, is a pointless debate. Every system of reference works in its own terms -- that's why they come into existence.

Breaking down categorical assumptions underlying any system of references is the way that knowledge expands. Physical mechanics has expanded its scope and depth in just that way. So has traditional Chinese knowledge, for that matter.

Given the responses refusing conceptual discussion of these issues in any terms other than your own and, from the first instance to the last, favoring of direct experience as the only guide, I seriously wonder why you are having any discussion at all.

"I know that you know that I know that you know that I know ... "

What can possibly be learned in that ?? It seems vain and pointless in that light.

But, do carry on. Please don't mind my occasional foreign-sounding noises over here in the corner. I am quite sure nothing that I say is likely to inform a discussion of that kind, anyway.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-01-2006, 08:59 AM   #315
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The point was about broadening and finding connections between very differing terms of reference. The point was to increase the possibilities of common understanding and communication of the basis of these types of movements.
Erick, I personally think that the point is to convey as much useable information as possible in the simplest terms. For the most part, my opinion is that the basic ideas can be conveyed with the ideas of "force vectors" ('jin', BTW, can also be translated as "force vector") and mental sourcing. I think that's really the first problem.... since you want to see your own theory reflected back to you in some form, you simply don't want to look at a simpler discussion of force vectors. To compound the problem, you want some form of mathematical modelling so that we can discuss this on some form of elitist plane. I simply avoid trying to describe relationships that get into orders of variable that go beyond common understanding... this is not the "let's impress 'em with mathematics" forum.

You need to find someone that can show you how to do these things correctly. And it's sort of like riding a bicycle.... trying to describe how to do it on paper is futile, even though it can be taught fairly easily.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-01-2006, 09:40 AM   #316
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Erik, I agree with Mike here: these things have nothing to do with mystical "secrets," they are technical skills that can be learned. People have varying degrees of talent for learning them, but these biomechanics are within the realm of pretty much any normally-formed human body.

Michael McCaslin's basic, simplified overview of structural integrity and conveyance of energy through the bones (Training forum, "Opening the Joints" thread) might be a good starting point for you in understanding some of the fundamentals.

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Old 12-01-2006, 01:32 PM   #317
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... the basic ideas can be conveyed with the ideas of "force vectors" ('jin', BTW, can also be translated as "force vector") and mental sourcing.
That is better. And this is how I have understood what you are talking about. I get your position, and I'll explain why it is right as far as it goes and why it cannot be applied to address the problems that concern me.

I get, and have always gotten, the points you have made about how this functions in jin terms, and my own conception of it in mechanical terms. I can do many of the things you represent as jin manipulation in just this way, understood mechanically. I have no problem generalizing the mechnical description of it in common terms. I just wanted your mechnical description for comparison. I would still like to hear your description of the manner of propagation or conversion of those vectors from input to output, if I have assessed your position incorrectly below.

We continue to talk past one another, nonetheless, because you all seem to equate these uses of kokyu and ki to their use according to the principles of aiki or aikido, as O Sensei developed it. And that just is not so.

As I was saying before, we are dancing around a category argument. Just because what you are doing is an exercise of kokyu and ki (or jin) -- does not mean, ipso facto, that it is sound as a desciption, mechnically or otherwise, of aikido or the aiki principles by which techniques function, even though they may incorporate some of the kokyu (jin) skills you are training in. This is so even if Daito-ryu or Angier Sensei teach related techniques from their branches of the jujutsu arts that do function in that way...

In that context, the kokyu practice you are illustrating with force vectors has a great deal of relevance, which I have never disputed. It is channeling the reaction of the ground from joint to joint according to the middle third rule, as an catenary (or inverted catenary) profile across linkages.

It would thus use, as you say, the inherent material tension strength or "spring" potential of the ligatures to constrain the forces ( like a hanging cable or catenary arch) within the equilibrated tension sheath of the joint connections, and thus guide the ground reaction directly back at the input vector - thus avoiding any force couple rotation at the point of contact, and keeping any mechanism (rotating hinge) from forming between the two bodies.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Michael McCaslin's basic, simplified overview of structural integrity and conveyance of energy through the bones (Training forum, "Opening the Joints" thread) might be a good starting point for you in understanding some of the fundamentals.
Tohei Shihan supplied a number of ki exercises and related explanations of them for improvement of aikido training. That does not mean that the ki exercises, which do very well in training ki and kokyu skills, are themselves necessarily aikido technique, or that they themselves necessarily apply aikido principles when developing appropriate ki or kokyu skills. I will describe below my mechanical interpretaiton of the "opening the joints" image as the formation of a catenary path.

Weight training and stretching, and dancing for that matter, certainly all improve critical physical elements of the game of basketball and help increase the level of play. They are not basketball. That does not denigrate either weight training, stretching or dancing, each of which have merits in their own right.

Aikido is a particular applicaiton of ki and kokyu. Gravity is the same everywhere, but the uses of it differ markedly. A 747 and the Empire State Building both allow one to reach a height of some 1250 feet, so they are obviously equivalent, neh?

The problem with this as aikido is not with the channeling and intergation of the path of forces toward the center (which are very much part of kokyu and good training), but with the use of the ground reaction from the center by that means.

If O Sensei is to be believed, the practice you describe is certainly training in kokyu (or jin) and certainly ki -- but it is not based on aikido principles. Aikido does work on the basis of the proper shape and control of forces in the manner by which Mike seems to suggests in channelling ground reaction. Aikido just doesn't operate on the basis of ground reaction.

To do so requires there to be in-line resistance at the point of contact to oppose the input force. The rooting, grounding and vectors references seem to strongly suggest that. If you all mean otherwise, please elaborate. Ultimately, as you describe the grounding of forces or channeling the ground reaction -- there must be linearly opposed forces at the point of contact, and thus --- resistance.

In aikido there is no resistance. This statement is the key to the problem and the solution to it. If there were not this direct opposition, there would be a force couple, rotation and mechanism. And if there is rotation then the input force cannot be met with the ground reaction; there can be no ground reaction because there is no longer any direct force path to ground. That is where the aikido comes in, and what it in fact exploits.
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
... these things have nothing to do with mystical "secrets," they are technical skills that can be learned. People have varying degrees of talent for learning them, but these biomechanics are within the realm of pretty much any normally-formed human body.
We agree on this.

Aikido technique and the kokyu involved there just isn't a statics ground reaction problem, is it is a dynamic angular momentum problem. There is turning about a center -- many centers, individual joints and tanden, and on more than one axis simultaneously since we have (relatively) flexible connections to work with.

Joints are tension strap-linked mechanisms. Those linkages are mostly all actuated on opposed ligatures (on several axes of different linear input capacities). They all form a number of potential force-couples at a joint. If there is a force couple it has a center of action, there is either a torque or angular momentum there, and it has an vector of orientation.

If there is any offset in the opposing forces at the point of contact (and thus no direct resistance), there is a force couple and a rotation occurs. There is, accordingly, no transmission of the input force linearly in the static middle-third path through the joints toward the ground since that force is being applied to the rotation of the joint couple.

If a torque (vice free rotation) is experienced in the joint, because the force couple is being countered by muscle or tissue tension, then the force is transmitted not linearly through the bone, as with the ahngin chain or stable arch, but by a lever moment from one joint to the next, which is created by the resistance of each joint to the applied lever moment.

If the joint maintains the catenary (or parabolic) path by means of the middle third rule (which you are training for in "opening the joints") then it produces no leverage or counterforce but merely communicates the free rotation along a progessively larger moment arm. That means more inertia for the input force to have to rotate, or conversely it diminishes the effective moment of the input force couple at the other end of the moment arm it is rotating.

Essentially, this uses the integration of the individual joint moments according to the training you are talking about but by moment conversion, not ground reaction -- distributing the applied moment to a progressively larger inverse moment arm on the other side of the force couple -- which it has to rotate. It is working towards the "whole-body" tanden-centered motion that requires but a very small out of plane moment to radically displace the incoming moment along that very large whole-body moment arm, and in a plane that the input force couple does not act on at all.

The final reversal of the moment arm occurs in the change of eccentricity from one hip to the other, either in the uchi or soto (tanemura-ha /shimamura- ha) motion of the technique. Thus the input moment is effectively reduced to nothing at the tanden of the intended victim, and reversed to transmit the moment back to the attacker from a different axis without any resistance developing anywhere, and without any resistance by the attacker because his force is necessarily occupied elsewhere.

Imagine a giant sphere in the bottom of a large bowl. If you try to push it straight out of the center it will freely rotate and roll up the side of the bowl as far the input force allows up the slope of the bowl. But if in the course of that push an internal mass damper inside the sphere shifts just slighty off-center, the new center of rotation causes the sphere to rotate laterally one way or the other as well as vertically and basically deliver all the pushing power back onto the pusher from the side, where he has no resistance, as it rolls around and spirals back into him toward the lowest point of potential energy, but all the while it is still rolling away from his push and not resisting at all.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... sort of like riding a bicycle.... trying to describe how to do it on paper is futile, even though it can be taught fairly easily.
By definition, no forces involved in the couple operate in the plane of the torque or angular momentum vector. The angular momentum of a coupled rotation creates inertia about this axis vector that resists displacement in the plane of the axis vector -- even though no active forces operate their directly.

That is why a bike does not fall down and can be steered without hands, by the way. And that fact -- that riding bike can be learned easily says there is a fundamental relationship between the stability systems involved in both bicyclic and bipedal motion.

There is something exceedingly useful to be learned there about how ikkyo works , for instance, in communicating displacements through joint articulations without direct forces (resistance) being employed at any point -- even while standing (like a top) on the ball of one foot, a la Shioda's conception of chushin ryoku and the importance of the big toe as the axis of the chushin power. The mechanical "power" on that axis of the body is either applied torque or angular momentum about the tanden.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
To compound the problem, you want some form of mathematical modelling so that we can discuss this on some form of elitist plane. ... this is not the "let's impress 'em with mathematics" forum.
That's not what I'm talking about, nor is it necessary to get into diffy-q or higher algebra. What I have done here is the classical narrative approach to these types of mechanics. It is essentially a narrative form of dynamic geometry, more than anything. To see how that tradition has been revived in the feild of plastic mechanics and architectural engineering. read Jacques Heyman's "The Stone Skeleton" or "The Masonry Arch" That precise analysis according to Coulomb's method addresses what you are doing in channeleing ground reactions through an inverted catenary path formed at each joint successively. It has a definite shape, equivalent to tegatana, which you can manipulate mentally.

Heyman's approach, extended to the mechanisms of collapse, allows essentially non-linear moments and plastic mechanics to be assessed within useful confidence limits in situations where FEM or differential analysis cannot easily, if at all, generate instantaneous solutions across the same range.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-01-2006, 01:39 PM   #318
billybob
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Hi Erick,

have you studied tensegrity principles or examples of tensegrity structures to help you understand human physiodynamics?

david

ps. challenge yourself to prove why a bicycle works. attempts to isolate 'the principle' have resulted in some comical bicycles - eg. a machine with a ridiculously small front wheel (moment of force principle) - the front wheel caught fire, but the bicycle stayed up. Good luck sir! dk

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Old 12-01-2006, 02:24 PM   #319
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
That is better. And this is how I have understood what you are talking about. I get your position, and I'll explain why it is right as far as it goes and why it cannot be applied to address the problems that concern me.
Yeah, but I'm not sure that you DO understand my position, Erick. You have said nothing to encourage me toward that conclusion. For instance, your unnecessary addendum of "how" a bicycle might work in usage does nothing to assure me that you can actually ride a bicycle. I'm talking about what "time" is; you're talking about how to build a watch. And I'm not being contentious... you're attempting to establish some terms to form a common vocabulary, which is fine, but I have seen nothing yet that indicates you really understand the subject yet, so your terms simply hang there neither accepted nor rejected because they appear to be, IMO, off the point.
Quote:
I get, and have always gotten, the points you have made about how this functions in jin terms, and my own conception of it in mechanical terms. I can do many of the things you represent as jin manipulation in just this way, understood mechanically. I have no problem generalizing the mechnical description of it in common terms. I just wanted your mechnical description for comparison. I would still like to hear your description of the manner of propagation or conversion of those vectors from input to output, if I have assessed your position incorrectly below.
You seem to be saying that you understand my position (which implies my communication hasn't been in vain)... why is it that you can't simply start there and then work toward whatever your unclear goal is? What do you mean "propagation" or "conversion"? I've specifically laid out several attempts, including Inaba's which concurs with the way I look at it, of descriptions about how forces are used in "Aiki". I will take his concept of "Aiki", Sunadomari's concept, Abe's, and others, because they all generally agree with the way I look at it, over yours. They all were in a much better position to say what O-Sensei meant than you are.
Quote:
In that context, the kokyu practice you are illustrating with force vectors has a great deal of relevance, which I have never disputed. It is channeling the reaction of the ground from joint to joint according to the middle third rule, as an catenary (or inverted catenary) profile across linkages.
No, I disagree with that description and some of your others, including the necessity for a catenary arch to be involved in the description. The mind leads the ki. I can form resultant force-vector paths that go out across the gap from my middle to my forearm and then, without moving shift it to my shoulderblade or to the sole of my foot, or whatever. I don't "resist" an incoming force; I simply vector-add to it in order to give me a resultant commensurate with what I want to do with Uke. Because he becomes a part of my force equations, he is part of my movement and we don't conflict. "Resistance"? I think at most you're quibbling with the idea that there is an origin to forces; they don't resist each other unless they are zero-sum equilibrium.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:25 PM   #320
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
have you studied tensegrity principles or examples of tensegrity structures to help you understand human physiodynamics?
Statically, I know they have obvious application as to the integrity of limb structure and static stability, and much that seems counter-intuitive because most people's "force path" assumptions tend to be all of one sign rather than merely of one sign "on average" along any arbitrary load path as in tensegrity structures. They are really just complex space frames with dedicated tensile or compressive components, which can be seen if you recognize the irregular but still tetrahedral and octahedral nodes in those structures. Dynamically, I think other principles predominate.

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
ps. challenge yourself to prove why a bicycle works. attempts to isolate 'the principle' have resulted in some comical bicycles - eg. a machine with a ridiculously small front wheel (moment of force principle) - the front wheel caught fire, but the bicycle stayed up. Good luck sir! dk
Bicycles stay up because they have sufficent angular momentum to slow (but not eliminate) lateral tipping forces caused by a certain allowable range of eccentric lateral loads from the rider, which allows the rider sufficent reaction time to adjust the load profile to maintain stability.

The slowing moment is provided because the input lateral tipping moment is translated gyroscopically by the momentum of wheel rotations from the transverse axis into the yaw axis and thus is mechanically countered by a moment arm of the frame formed between one wheel and the other, and a torque resistance against actual yaw rotation from friction with the ground, and the countering reaction forces created by that torque are translated back to the lateral axis by the same path.

QED

Turning is left as an exercsie for the class...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:33 PM   #321
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Erick,

Beautiful explanation sir. But, as in the example of the reversible efficiency of engines being used to describe thermodynamic properties, can you build a bicycle that will Not stay up to prove your principle?

David
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:08 PM   #322
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
For instance, your unnecessary addendum of "how" a bicycle might work in usage does nothing to assure me that you can actually ride a bicycle. ... What do you mean "propagation" or "conversion"?
Read above how the bike works ...
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The mind leads the ki. I can form resultant force-vector paths that go out across the gap from my middle to my forearm and then, without moving shift it to my shoulderblade or to the sole of my foot, or whatever.
Of course -- like riding a bike --
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I don't "resist" an incoming force; I simply vector-add to it in order to give me a resultant commensurate with what I want to do with Uke.
I thought we wanted to skip the higher maths. Will it be tensor equations next?

If I have your and Dan's description of the exercises right you are basically doing drills in using the joints' tensions as a kind of analog vector abacus. My issue is not with your method of computation or arrival at resultant, but the formal structure of the solution that you intend to compute.

If any component of your vector sum is parallel to and of opposite sign to the attacking vector you are addressing, you create one of two things:

1) If parallel but offset, a force couple in the plane (and either rotation or torque (if you apply countering leverage moment)), or

2) If parallel and in-line, a linear resisting thrust.

The principle of juji tells me that aikido technique is applied without any component of force in-line and directly resisting. Additive is permissible in linear parallel but not negative. A negative parallel componet of force (irimi) is not allowable unless it induces rotation (tenkan), ie. - is offset and forms a couple and thus potential rotation. Perpendicular components are allowed to directly engage to counter as they originate in rotation (tenkan). Negative parallel components (irimi) must be allowed to engage free of resisting moment or torque against the couple that results. Thus, are the two fundamental priniciples linked in my mind.

Potential rotation can be converted gyrodynamically if angular momentum in a complementary (90 degree) plane can be developed. (See the bike again). It can also develop torque if reaction force is allowed to develop. Axial torque resistance is the weakest aspect of almost any structure. As I interpret this, Aikijujtsu may well allow for the provocation and exploitation of that damaging axial torque -- and thus ground reaction is certainly in play as the reaction forms that torque against the rotation potential that is developed.

Aikido, in my mind, would interpret the sensation of developing torque as reaction or resistance, and once provoked, would shift juji (90 degrees) to convert that rotation potential (tenkan)or to initate further positive offset rotation (irimi) in a complementary plane.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:19 PM   #323
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Read above how the bike works ...
Of course -- like riding a bike --
I thought we wanted to skip the higher maths. Will it be tensor equations next?

If I have your and Dan's description of the exercises right you are basically doing drills in using the joints' tensions as a kind of analog vector abacus. My issue is not with your method of computation or arrival at resultant, but the formal structure of the solution that you intend to compute.

If any component of your vector sum is parallel to and of opposite sign to the attacking vector you are addressing, you create one of two things:

1) If parallel but offset, a force couple in the plane (and either rotation or torque (if you apply countering leverage moment)), or

2) If parallel and in-line, a linear resisting thrust.

The principle of juji tells me that aikido technique is applied without any component of force in-line and directly resisting. Additive is permissible in linear parallel but not negative. A negative parallel componet of force (irimi) is not allowable unless it induces rotation (tenkan), ie. - is offset and forms a couple and thus potential rotation. Perpendicular components are allowed to directly engage to counter as they originate in rotation (tenkan). Negative parallel components (irimi) must be allowed to engage free of resisting moment or torque against the couple that results. Thus, are the two fundamental priniciples linked in my mind.

Potential rotation can be converted gyrodynamically if angular momentum in a complementary (90 degree) plane can be developed. (See the bike again). It can also develop torque if reaction force is allowed to develop. Axial torque resistance is the weakest aspect of almost any structure. As I interpret this, Aikijujtsu may well allow for the provocation and exploitation of that damaging axial torque -- and thus ground reaction is certainly in play as the reaction forms that torque against the rotation potential that is developed.

Aikido, in my mind, would interpret the sensation of developing torque as reaction or resistance, and once provoked, would shift juji (90 degrees) to convert that rotation potential (tenkan)or to initate further positive offset rotation (irimi) in a complementary plane.
Like I said, you need someone to show you what we're talking about. If I wanted to, I could insist that all this stuff is related to molecular vibration and I could prove my case in an explicative way to any solution you present me. But it's beside the point. If you understood the basics, there would be no need to focus on the exceptions and how they are contained by movement, technique, etc.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:20 PM   #324
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
David Knowlton wrote:
Erick,

Beautiful explanation sir. But, as in the example of the reversible efficiency of engines being used to describe thermodynamic properties, can you build a bicycle that will Not stay up to prove your principle?
Two words.

Square wheels.

More seriously, wheels on the same axis -- no moment arm in the yaw axis, or more accurately, no torque can develop along the moment arm between the wheels along the axle offset, because there is (virtually) no frictional resistance in their line of roll.

No matter how fast they spin -- you will still face plant (forward moment from induced friction torque in the wheel axis. So buy a face guard.

And engine efficiencies are not reversible -- unless you have a pocketful of anentropy.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:25 PM   #325
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

[quote=Erick Mead]
...
The principle of juji tells me that aikido technique is applied without any component of force in-line and directly resisting. ...QUOTE]

Erick,

Could you give a little background on the principle of juji? New term for me and google wasn't giving anything that helped.
Thanks,
Mark
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