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Old 11-23-2006, 09:20 PM   #251
David Orange
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You basically just told me that your vision of Aikido is someone applying a technique well, David.
You have to start somewhere, Mike. Aiki can be done in the early stages with almost no kokyu at all. From there, technique advances as kokyu ryoku advances and sei ryoku advances.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I don't want to get off into a tangent from an otherwise basic discussion, David, but yes... "six directions" can be done and is done in "all directions", but the how's and why's are beyond this discussion. Let's just say that for training purposes, the progression normally goes 2 directions, then 4 directions, then 6 directions..... 3 planar directions which can be used to describe all directions.
I can appreciate it better as going back to basics to build up again to the limitless and omnidirectional. Definitely sounds like Akuzawa has found out how it works.

Happy Thanksgiving.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:56 PM   #252
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Just finished catching up on reading through the thread. More to think about ...

Well, I hope everyone had a wonderful day. Mine was.
Gochisousamadeshita.


Thanks, Jun, for providing.
Domo Arigato Gozaimashita

Mark
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Old 11-23-2006, 10:06 PM   #253
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Thanks Dan, for taking the time to gvie some very useful concrete description to these concepts.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
When you hear discussions of resistence, bouncing off, casting, disruption, etc, you are hearing discussions of the "affect" on the opponent apllying force on us due to the "effect" that bujutsu training -in-our bodes has on that force. ... blending ... is so basic a movement principle as to be insulting ...it is full speed...in the wrong direction.
You will forgive me, that all my Chinese sources on these points, academic though they may have been, were in line with Master Yao's statement explicitly predicating resistance.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
.... As you pull around you on the right you are "pulling" with a straight arm keeping the triceps slack. Pay attention to the spine; head erect, sacrum dropped spine being stretched open. You are pulling away with your spine and drawing in on the inside lines of your body. ... As you push on the ground with your right and drawing away with the spine you are pushing across your lower center into your hips and activating/joining your left side. ... your right lower center is now activating your left lower center and you upper center is joined- your pulling force is connected to a pushing force across your spine. you are now using the power on the right to do the opposite on the left. Allowing it to push forward with your left hand as you pull with the right.
This sounds like "prayer drum" motion, in slo-mo, with isometric attention to each joint force couple as it receives and is moved by the energy translated/trotated from the next joint in the path, and passes it on in turn. Because each joint is moved in translation and rotation slightly as it i movd by the impinging force, the line of force that each joint is responding to alters successively, forming a spiral of incremental translation/rotaiton. The same thing happens on the way back out from tanden to the point of extension, and this spiral, in both paths, is the shape of ikkyo.

In this mode of motion, as we use it, each joint in the path toward the tanden is progressively being moved, all the way to the tanden and then the tanden communicates that movement back along a path of extension. Sometimes the paths of connection and extension are in opposite sides of each force couple in the joints of the same limb. In others the points of connection and extension are in different limbs altogeher or merely the hips or belly, depending on technique.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Where you fall short Erik is thinking this work you see in testing is resistence training. When in fact the opposite is true its neutral training.
If by neutral you mean mere inertia, well, even passive inertia is reaction force opposng the impinging force and is thus, resistance. To not resist, you must be moved. That movement may occur in the manner I described that is quite subtle but it must be movement, however small, or else there is resistance.

If, instead, this is simply a sequenced way of accepting force and being moved by that force -- in each joint couple in turn -- from point of connection to tanden and then back out again to point of extension -- well, it is kokyu tanden ho, and we do it all the time.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
... you hear such critism of those Aikidoka who move all over the place just to "blend" and move an opponent.
That is the thing, though, I do not move my opponent at all, he does; I merely serve as the amplifying instrument through which his own action feeds back to disturb itself. It involves some "feed forward" actually, but the principles are the same. In training we must set up some of those preconditions to make it manageable fro a givne skill level and yet still well-mapped onto motion in actual attack -- but that is it.


And I hope that a Happy Thanksgiving was had by all!!

My center has certainly developed -- to dangerous proportions at this point ...

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-23-2006 at 10:15 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:19 AM   #254
DH
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Exerpt from an article in Aikido Journal online-
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=688

From Ikeda Sensei after hosting Karate teacher Ushiro at Aikido summer camp In Colorado for the second time. His excellent observations

.............Peace cannot be made unless we all come together - not just karate and aikido, but all budo.

The kind of power through kokyu that Ushiro sensei has been teaching is completely different from what is usually thought of as kokyu. All of the people who came to this camp experienced this. It may have been only an introduction to this kind of practice and this kind of power, but I think it was a real plus for people to be able to experience it.


There will be no growth if we just repeat what is currently being done. For ourselves and for the Aikido of the future, it is necessary to completely change the way aikido is practiced. I think we have come to this critical crossroads."

Needless to say, how to work through this crisis, as Ikeda shihan describes, is the next problem. Any practitioner can have as their goal controlling and overcoming the opponent without using strength, without touching. However, we must ask ourselves if practice that entails only technical explanations and mindless repetition provides us with the necessary tools for achieving such a goal. The circular movement of aikido at first glance appears to be soft, but the fact is, that there is still a collision of forces, and anyone who has practiced has felt this collision.

By seeing and experiencing Ushiro shihan's nullifying "zero power" techniques and feeling zero-power in their own techniques when Ushiro shihan extended his ki through them, many of the camp participants realized just how much they had been depending on strength in their efforts to make the techniques martially effective.

Many people called Ushiro shihan's instruction "eye-opening", "innovative", and "new territory". However, a way of training that would promise future progress along this same path was not so clear. The inspiration, and the accompanying uncertainty put us at the crossroads, and the beginning of a revolution in the way we think about training. Our challenge, then, is to take this inspiration and turn it into action. Isn't this the start of true shugyo (training)?


Nuetralization of opponent, nullifying of power, zero power, (I call it zero balance) floating,
I realize it is just a repeat of much that has been said on these boards over the years. Maybe the fact of "who" is finally saying it publicly and is now pursuing it himself will get more folks attention, and interest them in finding instructors capable of both doing and teaching it.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2006 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:59 AM   #255
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Exerpt from an article in Aikido Journal online-
Quote:
Aikido Journal wrote:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=688

The kind of power through kokyu that Ushiro sensei has been teaching is completely different from what is usually thought of as kokyu. ... The circular movement of aikido at first glance appears to be soft, but the fact is, that there is still a collision of forces, and anyone who has practiced has felt this collision.
By seeing and experiencing Ushiro shihan's nullifying "zero power" techniques and feeling zero-power in their own techniques when Ushiro shihan extended his ki ... ... Our challenge, then, is to take this inspiration and turn it into action. Isn't this the start of true shugyo (training)?[/i][/b]
Neutralization of opponent, nullifying of power, zero power, (I call it zero balance) floating,
Which is to say that there is a lot of BAAAD kokyu practice out there, a point I fervently agree with. Yes. Fine. What to do about it? One cannot rip and burn Ushiro Sensei's ki for general distribution. We need a more generally applicable condensation of this that can be interpreted properly, and consistently. In other words -- omote.

That is the reason for my approach from my own mechnical background (rotary and vibrational mechanics) to follow the physical intutiions that I have developed in my kokyu practice. It may not be as good or as consistent as some may have developed -- but I know what I am looking for when I feel it, and I can see it in others when it occurs, and it is very much what the article talks about. I am finding concrete (omote) ways of interpreting and communicating it

The following is also from the same article:
Quote:
Aikido Journal wrote:
Using ki, you can enter into the opponent's center instantly, directing them at will through the hips and knees. In the case of throws, too, it is not an external rotation that breaks the partner's balance, but an internal one. Because it is applied internally, the opponent cannot feel it.
There are two key points made here that I have written about elsewhere in this forum and which I am continuing to work out with greater rigor from an omote physical perspective:

1) gyrodynamics and the relationship of precession to O-Sensei's specific description of the art as "jujido" and

2) using sensation of the gyroscopic internal rotation/vibration of joints according to the principles of virtual work (ie. -- zero-motion).

Mike and others have (well, "derided" is a polite term) my thoughts on these issues -- but the idea of "six-direction springs" is a quintessential model of linear resistance (albeit in three axes) that Ushiro Sensei is very definitely NOT using. Whatever the usefulness of "six-directions" as a visualization tool or for other purposes, it is also and for that reason, most definitely NOT what Ikeda and Ushiro are speaking about and the participants have reported.

Juji presumes that interaction of forces occurs at 90 degree angles -- there is never any component of oppositional force if true juji is maintained. All forces developed by the human body rely on internal joint rotaiton and vibraiton (tone) to function. Even "explosive Okinawan punches" (as discussed in that article) involve necessary internal joint rotations, they are not immune to this approach at all.

That is also why I was intrigued by Master Yao's discussion of vibrations in the joints as a critical aspect of yiquan. Tone in a joint is a function of constant background neuro-muscular "buzz" of that joint's oppositional muscle groups oscilalting against one another. Vibration and rotation are equivalent for gyrodynamic purposes.
A gyro rate sensor can be made on the basis of either form of internal motion, to sense essentially infinitesimal induced precessions by an input force.

I interpret ikkyo (the first principle of aiki) as:

1) a spiraling chain of these physical joint precessions,

2) led by the "ki sense" (in this setting) disclosing by a complementary "virtual work" sensation of precession arising in each of the joints from the instant of connection (musubi) with the opponent's structure -- betraying its state and thus where the attack is prepared to go.

The first is seen (omote) -- the second is hidden (ura).

The overemphasis on omote in aiki practice ( a western prejudice, perhaps) has caused this, but it is also that same omote that has revealed the ura (hidden) problem. There is necessity, as in all things, for both an ura and omote approach, as there is necessity for balance in the binary vibrational tone of the joints

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I realize it is just a repeat of much that has been said on these boards over the years.
This is what I am trying to depart from. Ikeda and Ushiro are following ura waza (exploring the hidden) in dealing with these issues, and understandably so. Ura is a preferential response of Japanese culture. (not that there is anything wrong with that). But the problem has in part been created from the similiar omote preference of the West. I could be wrong, but I do not think that tendency is going to change any sooner than the ura preference of the Japanese. So, the remedy for us must also partake of something of the same thing as the disease -- the omote approach of the West. I am attempting that from my perspective. So are David, Ledyard Sensei and others.

There is no substitute for the necessary awareness, I agree. For practice purposes, this awareness classically progresses from seated kokyu tanden ho through kihon waza and on through full jiyu or randori application.

This, Dan, in an isometric form, is what I am seeing in the solo and partner practice as you you describe it. It is that similar isometric form that I interpret to operate in Shioda's heavy emphasis on kihon dosa. It is what I see in Akuzawa's demonstrations in a completely different sensiblity.

It is very much what I feel and work for in partnered kokyu tanden ho, techniques and jiyu waza.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-24-2006 at 09:02 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:03 AM   #256
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
David Orange wrote:

Quote:
Erick wrote:
All dangerous things are not dangerous for the same reasons...I do not deny the points Mike raises about internal arts (even while differing on our understadnig of the precise mechanics of them), they are just not aikido in the way he describe them and their use, and the way in which the nei-jia are typically explained to function.
Erick, you and I are definitely on the same page here. I've experienced things with Chinese martial artists that I never felt anything like from any Japanese artist. The nature of what they were doing was so completely different that I can't accept the idea that they are the same. I will admit that both work from the center and that there are some commonalities, but these are two very different cultures with very different attitudes and the martial arts are expressed in completely different ways, though we can find some common qualities at various points. But the concepts are not equatable. Relatable, but not equal.
I've got to disagree with both of you here. Although I haven't gotten to meet Mike, I did get a chance to meet Dan. And if you read through the posts, you'll find that Dan, Mike and Rob are pretty much on the same page when it comes to talking about this stuff.

And it is, IMO, most definitely what is missing from most everyone's Aikido. Read the entry on Aikido Journal about Ushiro. It's all internal stuff.

And from Ikeda sensei:
Quote:
Ikeda sensei wrote:
Even if the number of people practicing aikido reaches the tens of thousands, there is no meaning if we are fighting among ourselves. It only means we are moving in the opposite direction from O-sensei's philosophy. Peace cannot be made unless we all come together - not just karate and aikido, but all budo.

The kind of power through kokyu that Ushiro sensei has been teaching is completely different from what is usually thought of as kokyu. All of the people who came to this camp experienced this. It may have been only an introduction to this kind of practice and this kind of power, but I think it was a real plus for people to be able to experience it.

As a teacher, one of the most important considerations is how we are bringing up new people in the art, both now and into the future. There will be no growth if we just repeat what is currently being done. For ourselves and for the Aikido of the future, it is necessary to completely change the way aikido is practiced. I think we have come to this critical crossroads.
If you can argue with Ikeda against all this, I'd certainly like to be there. I felt Ikeda and he's very good. If he thinks that that our kokyu should be changed ... I'm nowhere near a level to argue that point.

Mark
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:02 PM   #257
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Exerpt from an article in Aikido Journal online-
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=688
Dan
Nice article.

The only person I have ever met who popped my abdomen is Terry Ezra Sensei in the UK, who has been doing exactly the kind of stuff in that article as long as I can remember. And the only other people I have met with something special do not do Aikido. It is nothing new. What is new is that people are beginning to realise that they may have spent their entire Aikido life barking up the wrong tree.

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Old 11-24-2006, 02:20 PM   #258
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you can argue with Ikeda against all this, I'd certainly like to be there. I felt Ikeda and he's very good. If he thinks that that our kokyu should be changed ... I'm nowhere near a level to argue that point.
Who's arguing with him?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=10

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:48 PM   #259
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Well, let's be honest, Erick. Essentially, you've posited that Ikeda's meaning is not clear and therefore his statement can be interpretted in terms of your "gyrational movement" theory, right? I.e., you're not "arguing", you're simply assuming, without support, that people are agreeing with you. Let's keep the conversation intellectually honest, please.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:17 PM   #260
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, let's be honest, Erick. Essentially, you've posited that Ikeda's meaning is not clear and therefore his statement can be interpretted in terms of your "gyrational movement" theory, right?
I've posited nothing of the kind.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
It is not what was said, on either reading.
I made a simple statement illustrating that a public statement made by a Japanese person of any significant authority hides at least as much as it reveals. He has been in the States a long time, but he was speaking of Ushiro Sensei -- in public.

It says what it says. More or less.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-24-2006 at 03:22 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-24-2006, 06:37 PM   #261
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
... a public statement made by a Japanese person of any significant authority hides at least as much as it reveals. He has been in the States a long time, but he was speaking of Ushiro Sensei -- in public.

It says what it says. More or less.
True. I can concede to your point here.

And I can say that we differ on our views of Aikido. Nothing spectacular there, though, since I'm pretty much a speck on a flea on the dog that is Aikido.

It'll be interesting, though, to see how we change as time goes by.

Mark
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Old 11-25-2006, 03:39 AM   #262
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

I really like Erick's attempts, because at one time or other, the understanding and thought he brings to the issues will be expanded and transferred to the exact same things Mike, Rob, and Dan are talking about. It's probably just a matter of time before a hand-on experience happens. I don't agree with Erick's views on juji (it's not as simple as you make out, I believe, but I'll leave Rob or Mike to comment on that), or on omote and ura, but I certainly agree that not much can be said in public by one senior about another. So that's just clues thrown out for the benefit of those who already know what's being discussed. How's this for a quote (from a section entitled "Judo and Jujutsu"):

"First, there is no se-oi [taking weight on the back]. There is no pull. One does not grip tightly the lapel or sleeve. Both feet must use fully the way of no-feet and therefore do not grip the tatami. One moves under those conditions. The other may be as strong or conditioned in a sports sense as can be, that only serves to accentuate his weaknesses. Just a drop in the hips takes his center without feeling his weight, and the other does not realize that his weight is no consideration as he falls head-first to the mat. This is dangerous so a supporting hand needs to be ready."

Thus, a way of training is emphasized here, more than a particular mindset of how the body movement can be rationalized (I think at present no theory can fully explain complex movements without actually duplicating them). Further quotes about the training is "the existing strength must be actively denied, refused to be used... the athleticism and mobility of the feet must be negated and not used.... a new body must be forged which does not look strong or conditioned... It looks like a normal body without excess muscles." Here we have Kuroda Tetsuzan talking about training in his book "Ki-Ken-Tai-icchi no bujutsu-teki shintai wo tsukuru" (On the creation of a martial body unifying Ki, Sword and Body.) The way of training he expounds comes from his family style, from the kata. Seated kata practice is the vehicle for creating a seichusen and floating body which then is present whether standing or lying down, sitting he says is a quicker way to learn and build-in the particular body coordinations. There's more, but this should do for now.
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:49 AM   #263
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

"First, there is no se-oi [taking weight on the back]. There is no pull. One does not grip tightly the lapel or sleeve. Both feet must use fully the way of no-feet and therefore do not grip the tatami. One moves under those conditions. The other may be as strong or conditioned in a sports sense as can be, that only serves to accentuate his weaknesses. Just a drop in the hips takes his center without feeling his weight, and the other does not realize that his weight is no consideration as he falls head-first to the mat. This is dangerous so a supporting hand needs to be ready."
Dizamn!
That's a good quote. Courtesy of Mifune??

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Old 11-25-2006, 09:00 AM   #264
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Dizamn! That's a good quote. Courtesy of Mifune??
Hey Rob, no, it's Kuroda himself, and gives examples of his deshi to boot (some of who were doing this at school against judo people long before Kuroda got clues himself, he's not shy about pointing out that he only realized this stuff in his mid thirties after wasting years on the wrong stuff). I'll lend you the book as soon as I'm done, sure you'll enjoy it.
It's pretty funny: he says even if Kito-ryu resurrected their kata today, modern Judo would never accept now as it's too different from what they want to do in a sporting sense
.
Any chance you can provide a better translation of 無足の法 ? I've
got the explanation (a page or so) but no good translation for here.

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 11-25-2006 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:22 AM   #265
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Ok...if you say so!

cheers,

Charlie

Charles Burmeister
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Old 11-25-2006, 12:39 PM   #266
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

I have moved the posts regarding "To Slap the Ground or Not" into a separate thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11360

If people could please start new threads when a new topic is being introduced, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 11-25-2006, 02:04 PM   #267
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Just thought I'd add this little bit of info.

From here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=98

Quote:
Ueshiba wrote:
O-Sensei: In aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in aikido.
Hmmm ... seems to me that Ueshiba could very well be talking about Internal Arts. It certainly does fit the concept of what I know about them so far. It's all about internal centering without relying on outside sources, it's about not really doing anything to uke so yeah that's absolutely no attack and it really is non resistance because you aren't doing anything to build any type of resistance.

Things that make you go hmmmm ...

Mark
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Old 11-25-2006, 04:01 PM   #268
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Mark,
It's never about the other guy... it's all about -you-. So, there is never really an opponent. When someone else's energy comes your way in the form of an attack, you enter it whole-heartedly and make it yours. There is never a time at which you are resisting the other person. You are just doing what the zen monk asked of the hotdog vendor: make you one with everything.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:04 PM   #269
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Just thought I'd add this little bit of info.
From here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=98
Quote:
O-Sensei wrote:
In aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in aikido.
Hmmm ... seems to me that Ueshiba could very well be talking about Internal Arts. It certainly does fit the concept of what I know about them so far. It's all about internal centering without relying on outside sources, it's about not really doing anything to uke so yeah that's absolutely no attack and it really is non resistance because you aren't doing anything to build any type of resistance.

Things that make you go hmmmm ...
To hazard a point on which Mike and I actually agree -- I do not think that aikido falls within "internal arts." I think this because my experience of aikido is open and receiving. And for this reason -- O-Sensei's sensibility was of very active engagement with the opponent -- but not in any spirit of opposition at all.

There are a number of accounts of his uchi deshi, especially in his later years, of him being rather -- well, really cranky -- until he stepped on the mat when he would immediately cheer up and be energized facing an opponent. It is a narrative that resonates for me perwsonally. The Doka echo this:
Quote:
O-Sensei wrote:
By means of the way
Call out the misguided enemy
Advance and persuade him with words of instruction
Through the Sword of Love.
---
Aikido!
With links and ties too numberless to be known
Is found in the body and souls of the people
They who will enlighten the world.
I like things to be judged on their objective merits, but subjectivity also has its place in qualitative judgment. Intuition from unconscious observations necessarily precedes both deliberated theory and evidence. Beauty may not be truth, nor truth beauty, but something that strikes one as just not pleasing always should cause a degree of reflection. One can be wrong objectively or subjectively, so it is important to critically view both aspects of judgment in looking at an issue.

One of the things in the discussion of these internal arts that puts me off (and has no basis in objectivity at all) is the sense of solipsism that I perceive in it. Being so internally oriented -- unaffected and unmoved -- in a sense that seems to bleed beyond the physical movement and into the spiritual movement.

That probably is an utterly and horribly wrong indictment of internal arts, from an objective standpoint, but one of the reasons I began the practice of aikido in the first place is to take me out of myself, and find humane connection even when in opposition to toher people.

It is a quality I have found that aikido, as it has been spread about the world so far, promotes remarkably well. The discussion on the application of the internal arts, with its internal orientation and movement, to aikido seems remarkably contrary to that spirit, at least to me. Aiki has been for me about expanding the sense and the meaning of the center of movement, physically, as well as spiritually, not turning it in further in upon itself. I would find deeply concerning anything that seemed to make a material change in that spirit.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 11-25-2006 at 09:10 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-26-2006, 05:45 PM   #270
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
One of the things in the discussion of these internal arts that puts me off (and has no basis in objectivity at all) is the sense of solipsism that I perceive in it. Being so internally oriented -- unaffected and unmoved -- in a sense that seems to bleed beyond the physical movement and into the spiritual movement.

That probably is an utterly and horribly wrong indictment of internal arts, from an objective standpoint, but one of the reasons I began the practice of aikido in the first place is to take me out of myself, and find humane connection even when in opposition to toher people.

It is a quality I have found that aikido, as it has been spread about the world so far, promotes remarkably well. The discussion on the application of the internal arts, with its internal orientation and movement, to aikido seems remarkably contrary to that spirit, at least to me. Aiki has been for me about expanding the sense and the meaning of the center of movement, physically, as well as spiritually, not turning it in further in upon itself. I would find deeply concerning anything that seemed to make a material change in that spirit.
Erick, you simply have some mixed up idea of what an "internal martial art" is ... you don't appear to understand. Let's say, for the sake of discussion that Aikido falls into being an "internal martial art" or an "external martial art"... take your pick. Let's say you decide that Aikido is an "external martial art". That puts it in the same category with Judo, Karate, Choy li fut, Pi Gua, etc., etc. None of those arts agrees totally in philosophy with Aikido. Some of the "internal martial arts" are actually very close in philosophy with Aikido, but they don't use quite the same body skills that Aikido does. So Aikido is not an "internal martial art", but that is solely because of the difference in body mechanics, not because of the difference in philosophy.

So what you're trying to say about Aikido and "internal martial arts" simply doesn't compute. You don't understand the topic.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-26-2006, 06:56 PM   #271
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Erick, you simply have some mixed up idea of what an "internal martial art" is ... you don't appear to understand. .... So what you're trying to say about Aikido and "internal martial arts" simply doesn't compute. You don't understand the topic.
無 .

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:00 PM   #272
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

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Erick Mead wrote:
無 .
Cool, but I made a very valid point about what "internal arts" means and you can't address it. Your ideas of "resistive", etc., as applied to "internal arts" are ludicrous and ill-informed. If you have something to repudiate that, fine. As it stands, you're still mixing some kind of "philosophy of Aikido", the training/conditioning that Ueshiba used, and CMA misunderstandings into one erroneous batch of vague ideas.

"Natural" movement, has, as noted previously, a connotation with the "natural laws of the universe"... and that includes the jin/kokyu forces/skills. "Jin" is not "li", whether there is force involved in either one, nor is there any reasonable cause to think that "jin" points to either a resistive on non-resistive philosophy. If you can't argue those points with support, then you shouldn't assert them.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:21 AM   #273
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Cool, but I made a very valid point about what "internal arts" means and you can't address it.
Won't address any more, at the moment -- not the same thing, on several levels.

I am dealing in mechanics and mechanics only, at the moment, so as to have no further cause for these pointless semantic disputes between three language systems and three distinct banks of cultural assumptions underlying the points in question that have severe problems for mutual mappig of concepts.

We have more than proven here, I think, that the same law holds for argument as holds for orbital mechanics -- three body problems do not have discrete solutions after only a very few iterations.

When I have fleshed out the mechanics of the aiki interactions in those terms with those two reference systems to my satisfaction, I may get back to your system of references.

Until then, if you have anything to add along these lines, please do, or not, as you wish.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:43 AM   #274
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

I think I've presented the "mechanics" as well as can be presented in a useable, general format. Obviously, resolving the full mechanics would be absurdly complicated, so a general idea is optimal.

In terms of the conventions I use and the terminology, it doesn't matter too much. I've found (and still have a few examples in my files) Asians who use the same examples and illustrations of forces that I do, so I'm not off on a limb by myself... I'm simply trying to voice the *general* mechanics of paths and sourcing forces that they do. I don't know what else to tell you. The key to understanding starts with mentally controlling your force-sourcing.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:30 PM   #275
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
I have moved the posts regarding "To Slap the Ground or Not" into a separate thread.
If people could please start new threads when a new topic is being introduced, I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
-- Jun
Thank you Jun, great new thread.

I'm way too shy to actually start new threads myself ...
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