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Old 11-16-2001, 10:30 AM   #101
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
Somebody told me that Daito Ryu doesn't have the tenchi principle, or rather that O Sensei came up with it himself.
From what I've felt, a good o-soto gari that doesn't rely purely on the leg sweep is pretty darned close.

-- Jun

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Old 11-16-2001, 11:05 AM   #102
andrew
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy

From what I've felt, a good o-soto gari that doesn't rely purely on the leg sweep is pretty darned close.

-- Jun
Perhaps it is. The teacher may have exagerrated a bit to focus our minds on the principle. (Random, verbatim quote: "So if he went to the trouble of including this, it must be pretty important...")

andrew
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Old 11-16-2001, 08:25 PM   #103
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Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?

No, I am not strictly or primarily concerned with fighting skill. Unfortunately, I have found no way to skip over this step and travel directly to an enlightened state. The evidence I have seen, suggests that it is impossible. Every person I have met who attempted this, has neither self-defense ability nor spiritual insight, only delusions. What a terrible waste.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train?...
It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE.


No. Life is a vicious circle, but this dialogue is not.

I am only reminding you that you are always in danger, even if you only venture outside your home once a month to practice the "gentle art". When trouble comes for you, would you rather meet it with skill and experience, or hopes and wishes?
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Old 11-17-2001, 10:27 AM   #104
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First I quickly say is I like this response very much - only pointing out that there are many paths to enlightenment beyond the martial. There are many other "Do" which have that goal in mind (ie. Chado) which have no connection to violence not to mention the various flavours of Bhuddism.

I agree completely that if you are going to take the martial way (Budo) you must grasp the devil by the horns. Talking about it is not going to get you there.

Peter (master of typedo)

Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?

No, I am not strictly or primarily concerned with fighting skill. Unfortunately, I have found no way to skip over this step and travel directly to an enlightened state. The evidence I have seen, suggests that it is impossible. Every person I have met who attempted this, has neither self-defense ability nor spiritual insight, only delusions. What a terrible waste.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train?...
It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE.


No. Life is a vicious circle, but this dialogue is not.

I am only reminding you that you are always in danger, even if you only venture outside your home once a month to practice the "gentle art". When trouble comes for you, would you rather meet it with skill and experience, or hopes and wishes?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-17-2001, 02:23 PM   #105
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I agree completely that if you are going to take the martial way (Budo) you must grasp the devil by the horns. Talking about it is not going to get you there.
But you have to talk about it, focus on it and work towards whatever it is that you seek. Otherwise, you merely bend wrists and fall down a lot.

Do you become a better father by swinging a bokken or do you become a better father by working at becoming a better father? If you hope for Aikido to provide a better something then you've got to work at, tailor and look at your Aikido practice in a way that is supportive of those efforts.

This means going into very uncomfortable places and it does not necessarily involve increasing the martial dose of the practice. That is actually very easy for most guys to do because it's very safe in that world. We're used to fighting, so we just refine our skills at it until it doesn't look like we are fighting anymore. You don't have to engage either your partner, the world, or yourself in any meaningful way. You get to do what you've always done, pretty much in the same way you've always done it.

The same thing applies to the other extreme where people go through happy motions because it's safe and comfortable. They refine that because it too becomes a way to avoid engaging in anything meaningful.

Terry Dobsen used to do an exercise where you had to stand in a circle while everyone outside the circle complimented you. As the person in the center you had to thank them for the compliment and remain centered while doing so. I've watched many people react to a compliment as an attack. They deflect it, block it, resist it, or whatever. It takes work, groundedness, and often courage to really accept the compliment and the person giving the compliment. In fact, it requires profound courage to engage another human being in this manner.

Are you saying that such a practice woven into an Aikido dojo's curriculum is not Budo? That it doesn't sharpen the spirit? That it would somehow weaken a student?

Waiting for the flamethrowers.

Last edited by Erik : 11-17-2001 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 11-17-2001, 04:28 PM   #106
Mike Collins
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You hippy dippy, new age sissy, Men's movement, John Blye listening, "touchy-feely" types tickle me.

Budo is about killing the ego, not letting it become healthy.

You gotta work, work and more work if you want results. This stuff is all about pain, mister. What are you anyway???

Oh sure, you say you want to be a complete person, well that ain't gonna feed the colonel's bulldog mister!!

More cuts, more pain, twist more wrists, make more people fall. Then and only then, will you be a martial artist.

Or maybe there is another way thats good. I don't know
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Old 11-17-2001, 04:46 PM   #107
tedehara
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
...Anybody got an opinion on this?

Scott in Kansas
Several years ago, there was a guy who already had a black belt in another martial art. He joined our dojo he said, because he had gotten beaten by someone who supposedly used Aikido on him in a mixed-styles tournament. He practiced for a few months and then disappeared. I just hope he got the training and answers that he wanted.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 11-17-2001, 05:46 PM   #108
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
But you have to talk about it, focus on it and work towards whatever it is that you seek. Otherwise, you merely bend wrists and fall down a lot.]
I agree completely Eric and in fact that is one of the reasons I am on these lists. It helps me articulate what I've learned from my teachers and opens my eyes to the wider Budo world. I will say that the physical and mental training in the dojo goes beyond merely bending wrists and falling down (I know you know that) and that participation on electronic forums is not necessary for the developement of ones Aikido. I think my original point was that the focus of your training should be on the dojo - what lies beyond mere technique - discussion is a minor part.
Quote:

This means going into very uncomfortable places and it does not necessarily involve increasing the martial dose of the practice.

Are you saying that such a practice woven into an Aikido dojo's curriculum is not Budo? That it doesn't sharpen the spirit? That it would somehow weaken a student?
I think I am agreeing with you again. Not exactly sure so bear with me. I am sure that going into non-Martial uncomfortable places can improve your Aikido - if they are designed to strengthen the students spirit. Some people find a lot of benefit to Misogi for example, the Do afterall is a journey of self perfection.

I must say that in all Japanese Do there is a complimentarity of thought and action. They really are not separate - it is how they are approached which defines the Do. In Chado self perfection is achieved by mixing a bitter green froth and then lying about how good it tastes . In Aikido it is learing a set of seriously dangerous techniques and the mental disapline to apply them. That is the path. Once the martial is removed from Aikido it is no longer Budo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-19-2001, 01:28 PM   #109
Erik
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Peter, I'm not arguing for the removal of the martial side, so we're ok there.

I grew up in Aikido, so to speak, in an environment that freely intermixed the martial with the touchy-feely. I see both as integral parts of developing my Aikido. I don't think, for instance, that you can be on the mat solely working on technique and have it produce anything other than technique. Conversely, touchie-feely by itself doesn't get you very far in producing technique either. My belief and experience tells me that both are a necessary part of the process and that they are complementary to one another.

So that's where I'm coming from.

PS: Touchy-feely in my world, isn't necessarily, "ooh, I sense your karma is out of balance and your aura reflects that with it's yellowish red tint". Rather, it's a way of enhancing empathy, awareness, sensitivity and more through the practice of Aikido. Things, which theoretically, should enhance one's Aikido not detract from it.

Last edited by Erik : 11-19-2001 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 11-19-2001, 03:51 PM   #110
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Thanks Erik

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-22-2001, 05:53 AM   #111
unsound000
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Quote:
Originally posted by daedalus
Ahem.


Aikido works.

Other arts work.

Aikido will work against ANY attack, even if YOUR Aikido or any Aikido that you have ever seen or dreamed of won't. It's not a set of techniques, it's a group of principles that are in most arts. These principles can be applied. YOU just have to learn how.

ALL arts are the same. There are many paths up a mountain, but everyone at the top sees the same sky.
I agree with everything you said except that last bit. All arts are not the same and many do not even focus on developing spirit. In fact, I'm not even sure what you mean by same sky...I think the thing that a master of the arts must have is lack of fear. They do not fear other people, pain, weapons, etc. Now, beyond that there is a shit load of difference in that sky. I've known a korean master that was like Darth Vader and other masters that were far less dark...They taught with totally different philosophies on life.
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Old 11-22-2001, 07:33 AM   #112
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Fear...

Lack of fear? I have to disagree with that. People who does not have fear or lack of it will act recklessly. It is because of fear that one is good in defending oneself.

The difference for the people that are experienced (I say experienced because I don't believe that anybody has mastered the arts, no matter what grades thay are), they have the ability to control their fear, fear does not control them.

Remaining calm in any situation is the key. Being calm is often mistaken that one is not scared of anything. In order to be calm, one has to recognize the fear, accept it, and reach a resolution. The fear is there but it doesn't bother that person, therefore he/she will remain calm and not panic.

The basic of all proper martial arts are the same, it's the people that teach them are different. I believe that Brian Lapins put it nicely... in the end we will all see the same sky.

Self-learning is just as important if not more important than in dojo instruction, in order to see this "sky". I, myself have experienced this, even though, I am still a beginner in the arts.
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Old 11-24-2001, 08:47 AM   #113
ivan
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There are always causes and results in this whole world, for example energy is everlasting and cannot be destroyed..
everything has a weakness and strength..
For aikido , scarifice some tactics..like dangerous killing and rough ones for a good point like the ability to protect ur oppnent..
A weakness which is also keeping mai [distance] from ur oppnent..
Wherelse NHB fighters train to kill or maine..
OF COURSE THEY WILL BE GOOD IN THAT!!
they chose their own road , by for that they lack the ability to keep peace with oneself and harmony..
THerefore i must say that u cannot put this two arts together , there have different directions for their art..
AiKIdo might not survive in a ring , which i must say is true ...for the enclose area, WHich is also a advantage of a nhb fighter ,
But do u think they can do better than a aikidoka in different suitatons?
So i must say nhb is better in the ring but they also lack in somethings which aikido is good in ..
ALso i must say that ever though aikido cannot be as effective as killing arts THATS ALSO ONE REASON WHY WORLD WIDE ARMIES DONT TRAIN THEIR UNITS WITH AIKIDO , but they can be the best supplement to a martial artists like for speed in they side stepping and throwing ways ..
So dont always think of desvasting arts , or what they can do ..
instead think of how u can improve urself by learning the various arts, taking alll their strength and leaving out their weakness,, thats a true all round martial artist..
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Old 11-24-2001, 09:19 AM   #114
Jim ashby
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Aikido "not deadly"

Iriminage will kill you. Forms of Kaitennage will kill you. Shihonage will kill you.Etc etc. There are some units in the armies of the world that do teach Aikido, they just don't advertise the fact.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 11-24-2001, 12:59 PM   #115
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If we're talking about the effectiveness of aikido. . .

Lots of people are claiming it takes a long time for there to be a fighting use for aikido. Well, I'm pretty new to it, but I would still disagree. First, aikido gives lots of self-confidence to a completely non-MA guy even after a few months of training. And you DO need confidence in fight. Second, at least me, it has given an idea of What Hurts. And most street thugs, at least here, in Latvia, are not really trained in Karate or Thaiboxing. What Hurts can do for them, even if it takes a lot of fumbling at first.

Everyone disagree?

Duarh
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Old 11-24-2001, 07:18 PM   #116
davem
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Ivan I have to disagree with you.
With more 'armies' switching to peacekeeping roles within the world more and more they are teaching their soldiers aikido tai chi and other so called "Non killing" arts.
Truly think about what aikido is teaching you, not only to be more centered physically and mentally, but if we look at just the techniques. Any throw where the person being thrown lands on their neck or skull can kill. Any pin can easily end in death, but... not every punch or kick can kill. Whether or not Aikido can work in a fight is irrelevant to the art, it is fully dependent on the practitioner. I feel aikido is much more closer to a fully lethal art then people would understand. I'm fialry new to it, but after examining the empty and non empty handed techniques it is plain as day. Without the centering or discipline... if this was taught like fast food tkd.... there could easily be legions of killers using these techniques. You learn to use sticks, knives, swords, baseball bats, bottles writing utensils among other things as killing weapons when you take this art.
So why couldn't this standup to nhb? Seriously, I think this art could put a real hurting on the nhb world.

-D

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Old 11-24-2001, 07:25 PM   #117
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After reading my post I have to add to it too.

Erik's previous posts are right. We strive to learn to be centered in mind and body. (personally I think the compliment thing is a great idea. I've learned I have to get rid of my ego in order to accept a true compliment.)
I you are centered, aware, and emphatic you can understand when someone is trying to cause a problem, and you can diffuse it before it happens. I don't like NHB I think it's lame. Personally, I think it is more impressive to make situations into non-situations. How can fighting be good if people get hurt? It can't be. Also anything that allows you to fully explore yourself is good, and for that reason I am in Aikido.

Good day folks. I'm going home.

-D

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Old 11-25-2001, 02:38 AM   #118
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Re: Fear...

Everything you said makes sense. I just don't know what you mean by proper martial art. What do you mean by proper? Maybe you mean moral? Who is Brian Lapins? Maybe I can read what he wrote and appreciate what you are saying better..

The basic of all proper martial arts are the same, it's the people that teach them are different. I believe that Brian Lapins put it nicely... in the end we will all see the same sky.

Self-learning is just as important if not more important than in dojo instruction, in order to see this "sky". I, myself have experienced this, even though, I am still a beginner in the arts. [/b][/quote]
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Old 11-25-2001, 05:39 AM   #119
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Fights are not good.

Quote:
Originally posted by Duarh
If we're talking about the effectiveness of aikido. . .

Lots of people are claiming it takes a long time for there to be a fighting use for aikido. Well, I'm pretty new to it, but I would still disagree. First, aikido gives lots of self-confidence to a completely non-MA guy even after a few months of training. And you DO need confidence in fight. Second, at least me, it has given an idea of What Hurts. And most street thugs, at least here, in Latvia, are not really trained in Karate or Thaiboxing. What Hurts can do for them, even if it takes a lot of fumbling at first.

Everyone disagree?

Duarh
Hey, I used to be a citizen of Moldova back when it was Moldavia and Latvia was also part of USSR, if I'm not mistaken
So we're kind of neighbors. Were. Sort of.

Yes I think that Aikido can be extremely dangerous... most of all to those Aikido practitioners who haven't ever been a target of a violent confrontation and so have developed false self-confidence about their physical ability to protect themselves.
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Old 11-25-2001, 09:03 AM   #120
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<Yes I think that Aikido can be extremely dangerous... most of all to those Aikido practitioners who haven't ever been a target of a violent confrontation and so have developed false self-confidence about their physical ability to protect themselves.>

1) I have (been)
2) I'm gonna run away if it's possible
3) In the worst case, it will work on the kind of 17-year-olds you get on Riga's streets

Regards,

Duarh
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Old 11-25-2001, 03:39 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duarh

1) I have (been)
2) I'm gonna run away if it's possible
It's good to know that.
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Old 11-27-2001, 05:01 PM   #122
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
That's the joke - its like "I always lie".

By the way I believe that the basic principles and effective self defense can be taught quite quickly in the Aikido context - it just boils down to training methodology.

The infamous KISS principle and a limited number of techniques. Expand slowly but surely into the entire repetoir over time but you really don't need a hundred variations and iriminage to defend yourself.
Boy, people here catch on pretty quickly.

Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.

*aikido* him
Verb. Similar usage to "I'll judo you" or "the police wrestled him to the floor"

Not to be confused with aikido used as an adjective. I have a nice aikido-gi.

Never mind.

Jim23

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Old 11-27-2001, 06:11 PM   #123
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23


Boy, people here catch on pretty quickly.

Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.
I believe that when you're thinking of "Aikidoing" someone, your attempts will fail miserably no matter how good you think you are.

I see Aikido as "helping" the attacker, not forcing him to do anything that he can resist to. The attacker is throwing himself, for as long as his attack is continuing.

I believe that at a certain level at least some Aikido practitioners realize that and actually start to physically manifest it - blending and what it's all about.

Last edited by shihonage : 11-27-2001 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 11-28-2001, 11:15 AM   #124
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.
The same can be said about any other martial art...
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Old 11-29-2001, 04:47 PM   #125
Jim23
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You mean that they can also aikido people?

Jim23

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