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Old 11-13-2001, 07:18 PM   #76
PeterR
 
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That's the joke - its like "I always lie".

By the way I believe that the basic principles and effective self defense can be taught quite quickly in the Aikido context - it just boils down to training methodology.

The infamous KISS principle and a limited number of techniques. Expand slowly but surely into the entire repetoir over time but you really don't need a hundred variations and iriminage to defend yourself.



Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.

Does it? The statement negates itself.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-14-2001, 04:34 AM   #77
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Some things to consider...
The book, "Angry White Pajama's" raises the 'UFC/aikido debate'. In one part of the book, the author explains a defeat of the aikidoist in the octagon with the following reasons.

1. This is not a multi-attacker situation.
and
2. The environment is controlled i.e. you will not be able to use aikido to escape, change attitude, etc.
The ring is an environment more suited to confrontation and fighting whereas, aikido is really more about redirection and creating harmony.

If there was ever a competition to see how many multiple attackers a martial artist could defeat at a time, then I think aikido would do very well. This is a more realistic situation.
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Old 11-14-2001, 04:51 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000

1. This is not a multi-attacker situation.
and

That's a really bad excuse.

andrew
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:53 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrew



That's a really bad excuse.

andrew
Andrew,
Haha. My bad. The author wasn't saying that the aikido guy would have done better if there were more attackers. He was just making the point that this situation does not really test what the aikido person trains for. Other martial artists train for only single attacker sparring. Also, the aikido student trains to be aware of what's going on around him. Again, this training is not utilized in one on one sparring. It's a good book despite my bad expanation of it.
* * * *
Andrew brings up a good point about making excuses. Do we have to excuse aikido for not being a perfect art? Sometimes I get the sense from reading these threads that some in aikido feel a sense that aikido may be inadequate to other martial arts. No other discussion forums really question "Is karate or judo or jujitsu or kung fu effective in a real fight?" I feel as if some aikido practicioners don't want to learn other MA because of the violence involved in them. I think this is out of fear sometimes rather than a total moral choice. I find the same MA principles in every art I study, just the techniques change. Am I wrong? Is aikido perfect? Totally different principles? Do more people go to aikido than other MA because they fear violence? Is there more of a sense of inadequacy because of a fear of violence i.e hurting others or getting hurt?
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:55 AM   #80
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I hate to add to this ramblingly long thread, but I think Mike has a very good point. The more I learn about aikido the more I learn how realistic it is (and also how deadly it can be if used inappropriately). What a lot of beginners might not realise, is that many of the techniques put you in ideal positions to actually kill or disable your opponent both through strikes to vital points (sternum, back of neck) or to nerve centres (around neck, on spine, other areas).

As a case in point, someone was saying about ikkyo, apart from the obvious pressure that can be applied on the elbow, there is also a knock out point on the back of the upper arm. Now obviously pressure points etc aren't always good, but Aikido puts the praactitioner in a safe position WHILST allowing them to (potentially) do considerable damage to their attacker. - what more to people want?

Ian
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Old 11-14-2001, 06:00 AM   #81
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I think one reason why many aikidoka are very poor at defending themselves is that many use aikido as a cop out from other martial arts which demand more severe training.

When Ueshiba first taught aikido it was very severe and he expected a good level of body conditioning (and he himself was enormously strong). Obviously Aikido is designed for everyone, but knowing how to strike, kick effectively is important as well as being fit, strong and fast. I don't know why many people in Aikido balk at the thought of serious excercise. During classes I do very little physical excercise, and the aikido is generally not intensive enough as an excercise in its own right, so I think (daily) conditioning training is essential if you are to fully utlise Aikido's potential.

Once again, its not the martial art thats the problem, its the martial artist.

Ian
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Old 11-14-2001, 09:05 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000

inadequate to other martial arts. No other discussion forums really question "Is karate or judo or jujitsu or kung fu effective in a real fight?" I feel as if some aikido
You'll find it a lot, but I never really see "Your art is crap, look at my aikido!"

My current teacher told a few of us once, in the pub after a misogi, that he thought aikido wasn't really effective at all until he'd been doing it for about four years. (He'd done six years of kempo before that.)

Actually, I'd heard of angry white pajamas before and it is a book I want to read. (And a course I'd love to do... heh heh..)

It's a redundant question. Give a long sword to a maniac and ask him to attack a shihan and a UFC/NHB fighter. Who do you think is more likely to disarm him? Why don't we ask questions like that? (How about five guys with swords?)
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

andrew
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Old 11-14-2001, 04:37 PM   #83
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Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.
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Old 11-14-2001, 04:50 PM   #84
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I think Andrew makes a valid point that when one talks about dealing with a NHB compeditor - the chance that we would run into that sort is pretty low. We may run into the Saturday afternoon Thai boxer wanna be or some violent git who does a bit of Karate training but there is no way they are in the same class.

But how his argument does fall apart is adequetly pointed out by Chris. Even if self defence is not your primary motive for studying Aikido, it sure isn't mine, to take your technique to the higher levels you must understand dealing with aggression and what works under pressure and how it works. Aikido can never be just dancing or moving meditation for then it becomes something else.


Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.
Quote:
To which Chris [hate that Censored moniker] replies
By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:03 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.
Distance is everything. Also, this thread is silly.
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Old 11-14-2001, 06:59 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Aikido can never be just dancing or moving meditation for then it becomes something else.
I had to reread this a couple of times. The word just makes a whole bunch of difference.

I would also say that Aikido can never be just throwing and falling for then it also becomes something else.
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Old 11-15-2001, 04:49 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.
And if a comet should hit the earth......

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. If I did, I would have to be considered paranoid. If you train to prevent this, where does it stop? Could you ever feel satisfied that you were safe? I don't think so, and I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it.

It should be pointed out also, because it is implied otherwise, that enjoying training does not necessarily make it ineffective. I would imagine that anxiety over being attacked is not going to result in a training that is necessarily more effective. (Please observe that a few test cases and some generalisations do not a rule make or prove.)

andrew
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Old 11-15-2001, 07:16 AM   #88
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Ian [/b][/quote]
Quote:
Obviously Aikido is designed for everyone, but knowing how to strike, kick effectively is important as well as being fit, strong and fast. I don't know why many people in Aikido balk at the thought of serious excercise.
Kenpo was my first art. The guys on these threads that talk as if aikido can easily handle any combative situation need to wake up. There are a lot of other arts out there that have things to offer and many of the same principles as aikido regarding balance, economy of motion, centerline, joint manipulation, harmony, etc.
If you want to flow and fight from any distance then you're going to have to know hitting, punching, etc. I think people that balk at serious exercise are lazy and afraid that there is more to learn. They don't want to admit that they might be missing something
by choosing aikido but every art has it's weaknesses.
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Old 11-15-2001, 02:14 PM   #89
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And if a comet should hit the earth......

If the probability of your being attacked is the equal to the probability of being hit by a comet, then I expect quite a few New Yorkers will be moving to Galway, Ireland.

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. If I did, I would have to be considered paranoid. If you train to prevent this, where does it stop? Could you ever feel satisfied that you were safe? I don't think so, and I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it.

Yes, I train to prevent it.
No, it will not stop anytime soon.
No, I have no illusions of safety.
No, I don't lose sleep over it either. Why would I, when I've done everything I can do?

It should be pointed out also, because it is implied otherwise, that enjoying training does not necessarily make it ineffective. I would imagine that anxiety over being attacked is not going to result in a training that is necessarily more effective. (Please observe that a few test cases and some generalisations do not a rule make or prove.)

Who is anxious? If you are not willing and able to save yourself first, you will be in no position to save your friends and family, much less an attacker.

Here's a test case. I hope it never becomes relevant to you. Dismiss it if you like.

You are on a business trip to a neighboring town. While you are there, you decide to take in a class at the local Aikido school. One of the skirts there considers himself an expert in martial arts, and he doesn't like the way you fall. How dare you waste his valuable time? So he puts you in position to land directly on your head. You have 1/3 second before it's all over.

All your best intentions, and your reasonable precautions, weren't quite enough.

Are you trained for the best case, or the worst case? How will you enhance your life, here and now?
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Old 11-15-2001, 02:30 PM   #90
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There are a large number of poeple practicing Aikido that are not really concerned with anything but the collection of fighting principles and techniques.

There are others where the Do is important but little difference is seen between Aikido and other Do.

There are those that are into how Ueshiba's take on religion was interpreted.

The common denominator is the martial technique. I would never tell any of the above that they are not doing Aikido.

Quote:
Originally posted by Erik


I had to reread this a couple of times. The word just makes a whole bunch of difference.

I would also say that Aikido can never be just throwing and falling for then it also becomes something else.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-15-2001, 05:40 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
There are a large number of poeple practicing Aikido that are not really concerned with anything but the collection of fighting principles and techniques.

There are others where the Do is important but little difference is seen between Aikido and other Do.

There are those that are into how Ueshiba's take on religion was interpreted.

The common denominator is the martial technique. I would never tell any of the above that they are not doing Aikido.
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?
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Old 11-15-2001, 05:53 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik


So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?
Well that is a whole new can of worms.

Differences in history, emphasis, and influences.

I would toss in a whole rash of other budo into the question including judo and kendo.
No great expert on the various arts but it has been pointed out that there is nothing particularily unique about Aikido both in the techhnical and philosphical sense.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-15-2001, 05:59 PM   #93
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So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.
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Old 11-15-2001, 06:06 PM   #94
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Beautiful - can I adopt that as my own.

Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-15-2001, 08:10 PM   #95
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Quote:
[i]Originally posted by [Censored]So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido? [/b]

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.
Ouch!
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Old 11-15-2001, 09:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Well that is a whole new can of worms.

Differences in history, emphasis, and influences.
Ah, therein lies the answer: Emphasis and influences. The great mystery in all this is what was Ueshiba's intent in creating Aikido?
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Old 11-15-2001, 10:25 PM   #97
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Ahem.


Aikido works.

Other arts work.

Aikido will work against ANY attack, even if YOUR Aikido or any Aikido that you have ever seen or dreamed of won't. It's not a set of techniques, it's a group of principles that are in most arts. These principles can be applied. YOU just have to learn how.

ALL arts are the same. There are many paths up a mountain, but everyone at the top sees the same sky.

Brian
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Old 11-16-2001, 07:28 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by unsound000
Ian
Kenpo was my first art. The guys on these threads that talk as if aikido can easily handle any combative situation need to wake up.
[/b][/quote]
The same goes for one of my teachers, who did six years of kenpo before he took up aikido. He did aikido for four years, he says, before he actually accepted that is could be very effective.
He also says that not long before he was due to start thinking about his first dan grading he went and trained at another school (in another town) and realised that most of the 4th kyus were better at aikido than him. (He.. em... postponed going for shodan for awhile and started training there too)

What you're saying is quite true (for instance, aikido does not as far as I can gather prepare you for NHB) but I get the feeling that you're blaming the art for the a lot of the artists...

andrew
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Old 11-16-2001, 07:34 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.

I only know aikido novices, but I'll take you word for it.

Somebody told me that Daito Ryu doesn't have the tenchi principle, or rather that O Sensei came up with it himself.



andrew
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Old 11-16-2001, 07:47 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. .

Yes, I train to prevent it.

Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?
For me it's not, and I don't think training in Aikido chiefly for these benefits makes sense. There's better, faster arts for these results. Which is not the same as saying you can't use aikido for this, obviously.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train? Your arguments logical conclusion is not to train in aikido because you may train with somebody who will injure you. The paradox, of course, is that a trained attacker will apparently go for me oneday and disenfranchise my life pleasure by crippling me. It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE (and so is this post.)

Agggh!

andrew
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