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Old 09-03-2001, 11:32 PM   #26
daedalus
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Tohei Sensei whomped a professional fighter. Here's the story from an interview of Chiba Sensei on www.aikidofaq.com:

"What about Master Koichi Tohei of the Ki Society?

Yes, Tohei Sensei is very good. He is small but very powerful. I saw him take a challenge from a wrestler once.

Sumotori or Western style?

Western style. Two brothers - Germans I think from Argentina - and they were enormous! They had to bend over to avoid hitting their heads on the gate-post of the Hombu. This was the only time that O Sensei accepted a challenge for Hombu. These people were travelling the world with a film crew and were challenging different Martial Arts masters. They had been to the Kodokan (Judo HQ), but the Judo men had not been able to handle them. So they challenged the Aikido Hombu. When they arrived I met them and brought them in. Inside the dojo were O Sensei Kisshomaru Sensei, and Tohei Sensei who was then the Chief Instructor to the Aikido Foundation. O Sensei nominated Tohei to go first, as he was so strong. So the wrestler crouched in a low posture with his hands out stretched in front of him, and just moved in a circle around Tohei Sensei for a long time. Tohei Sensei was very relaxed and just followed his movement, and eventually cornered him. Just as the wrestler began to move Tohei leapt upon him, threw him to the floor, and bounced his head for him. Tohei Sensei then pinned him down with his hand blade extension, which, as you may have heard, is very powerful. This guy could not move, and his brother declined to try Tohei for himself, so that was that. Apparently at the Kodokan the Judo men advised them not to make a grab for an Aikido Master. That is why he circled Tohei Sensei for so long."


Just like to say that just because someone is huge, sweaty, and shirtless doesn't mean that their joints twist a different way then anyone else's or that the laws of physics simply don't apply to them.

Brian
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Old 09-04-2001, 02:42 AM   #27
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by darin
Aikido uses intricate locks and throws that are very difficult to apply to someone who is not wearing a gi, strong, very quick and is wet with sweat.
In Aikido that's being taught here, there's a specific emphasis on "not grabbing", so that the techniques (with a few rare exceptions) don't really depend on the attacker's sweatiness, or lack of clothes.
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Old 09-04-2001, 03:42 AM   #28
Kami
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Cool Legends from Aikido...

Quote:
Originally posted by daedalus
Tohei Sensei whomped a professional fighter. Here's the story from an interview of Chiba Sensei on www.aikidofaq.com:
KAMI : This story is just told there, I don't think anyone else confirmed it and it is suspiciously similar to the film "RENDEZ VOUS WITH ADVENTURE", where an american crew made a documentary with O-Sensei with Tohei Sensei acting as interpreter. A middle-aged american reporter, with a back up on grappling, wished to test Aikido and the Founder authorized Tohei Sensei to test with the man. Of course, Tohei Sensei couldn't use more violent techniques nor killing the man. All the "machismo" story there was absent, in reality. What we see, is a young Tohei Sensei struggling, with quite some difficulty, with the older guy. He couldn't use the majority of Aikido techniques and he finally won with much trouble, not "stomping the man's head on the floor"... Not a very good exemple of Aikido's superiority. By the way, O-Sensei didn't look very satisfied with this test.

Quote:
Originally posted by daedalus
Just like to say that just because someone is huge, sweaty, and shirtless doesn't mean that their joints twist a different way then anyone else's or that the laws of physics simply don't apply to them.
KAMI : Of course not...But if that man, besides huge, sweaty, and shirtless, is also a good technician in his chosen art, then, YES, if Aikido is totally unprepared, it will have trouble! Even men with no expertise, some times have very flexible joints and are very difficult to pin. If that man is an expert and also knows (Aikido isn't such a mysterious art anymore) those laws of physics, you'll have trouble applying them.
I'm not dismissing or thinking bad of Aikido. I'm just saying that Aikido is a wonderful and efficient art, considered under certain circunstances. It is not a magic art, perfect, created by a God and able to withstand any other art, under unprepared for circunstances. That's naive.
The same thing happened with brazilian jiu-jitsu. Initially, it was an unknown art and, in the 3 first UFC, it won easily against other arts (with the advantage that the rules were created by a BJJ man, Rorion Gracie). After the initial surprise was over, other guys from grappling, prepared specially for such events, began to won and today, BJJ is just one style from many others. No special advantage.
Just my opinion

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

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Old 09-04-2001, 05:14 AM   #29
ian
 
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Re: Legends from Aikido...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kami

It is not a magic art, perfect, created by a God and able to withstand any other art
I think this is where aikido differs from all other martial arts. Aikido is not a set of techniques but a set of principles. It is also a set of principles which ARE unbeatable, even though people may never perfect it (and thus it is unlikely that anyone is unbeatable). One of the main principles being blending.

Also, although there are many aikidokas who cannot punch effectively and who are unfit, that does not include all of us. I do a lot of quite intense fitness excercise and practise striking and kicking regularly. I don't look at this as 'seperate' from aikido - to me aikido not a series of ju-jitsu technqiues. Also, I don't do this 'cos I think aikido is rubbish. I do it because I think knowing how to strike effectively is an integral part to understanding aikido.

If you remember, Ueshiba's most important enlightenment was when he was being attacked by someone with a sword and avoided being cut, it wasn't that he managed to put kote-gaeshi etc on the man - he just completely avoided being hurt. i.e. it isn't about a set of techniques, it is about body movement.

I would think that any martial art would benefit from aikido training to improve their own art, and I'm sure many of these top athletes need to use 'aikido' principles to overcome the force of their attackers. Doing aikido has made me relaise the beauty of the body movement in boxing, and from what I've seen, whether they are taught it as 'aikido' or not, the concept of blending , timing, miai etc is very important in boxing.

Also, for me aikido is perfectly designed to protect yourself in real situations. This means i. you can have a graded response related to the aggressiveness of the attack, ii. it allows an instantaneous reaction from an unexpected attack.

In NHB fighting the attacks are pretty much expected, and as mentioned previously it is set up in such a way that certain martial arts are given an advantage. In real fights one of the most important skills is awareness 'cos you don't know who is going to attack you. I think aikido is excellent for developing this.

In conclusion, I think it is not very good comparing aikido to other martial arts since aikido is not so much a set of techniques as a way of doing techniques. Therefore any martial artist could incorporate aikido principles into their martial art (maybe some of the NHB lot already do this, and in some obscure way aikido is already in these fights).

Ian
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Old 09-04-2001, 07:29 AM   #30
L. Camejo
 
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Red face

Hi All

There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread. The fact is, as far as practicality in a fight is concerned, not all Aikido is created equal. So saying "Aikido" can and cannot win in NHB fighting is practically senseless, since there are MANY MANY forms of Aikido, some of which are devastatingly effective in self defence. Victory in a fight (especially in the UFC) can come down to everything from mastered techniques to sheer luck.

On another note, there is no such thing as No Holds Barred fighting in a ring with rules, such as in the UFC. As long as there are ANY rules, true NHB fighting is a myth. So, let's not get into debates as to whether "Aikido" (generalised) can or cannot stand up in these circus side shows. We all do Aikido for different reasons and obviously the one who is in it for character buiding may not be as effective in self defence as one who does it for the utilitarian purpose of self defence.

I agree with Ian on the topic of the Aikido "principles" however. These concepts are unbeatable, but the fact is, these principles are most powerful when applied with an empty mind i.e. no rules (hence they do not come into their own in so-called "No Holds Barred" fighting tournaments).

Martial arts, like any other arts are expressions of the individual, and that is where practical combat effectiveness or utter uselessness lies. It's the artisan, not the art.

Masakatsu Agatsu
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 09-04-2001, 10:47 AM   #31
Kami
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Cool IS AIKIDO UNBEATABLE?

[quote]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[b]Hi All

There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree partially.

[quote]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[b]The fact is, as far as practicality in a fight is concerned, not all Aikido is created equal. So saying "Aikido" can and cannot win in NHB fighting is practically senseless, since there are MANY MANY forms of Aikido, some of which are devastatingly effective in self defence. Victory in a fight (especially in the UFC) can come down to everything from mastered techniques to sheer luck.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree in part. There are many forms of Aikido but even Tomiki trains on its own rules and those are very different from the rules in NHB/UFC. The same applies to Jiyu Waza, more common in Aikido. Also, to be "effective in self-defense" means nothing in this scenario. Self-defense is not sport competition. Things you can do in self-defense you can't do in sport competition. And I don't discuss "sheer luck".

[quote]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[b]On another note, there is no such thing as No Holds Barred fighting in a ring with rules, such as in the UFC. As long as there are ANY rules, true NHB fighting is a myth.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : Yes, there is not, anywhere in the world, true "no-holds-barred" fighting...

[quote]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[b] So, let's not get into debates as to whether "Aikido" (generalised) can or cannot stand up in these circus side shows. We all do Aikido for different reasons and obviously the one who is in it for character buiding may not be as effective in self defence as one who does it for the utilitarian purpose of self defence.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : Or for sports competition, exactly what I said. You have to train specifically for sports competition or for self-defense (two different things) if you want to become good in any of them. Or in "character building"...

[quote]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[b]Martial arts, like any other arts are expressions of the individual, and that is where practical combat effectiveness or utter uselessness lies. It's the artisan, not the art. [END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree absolutely. That's why I said before that it's up to the individual. If you really want to go there, by all means do so. If not, don't. But be prepared for it!
Best

Last edited by Kami : 09-04-2001 at 03:18 PM.

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 09-04-2001, 02:53 PM   #32
Jim23
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*poof*

You called master?

I should probably change ny signature, as it is a bit of a generalization.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 09-04-2001, 05:40 PM   #33
mj
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And like that! (poof)
He was gone.

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Old 09-04-2001, 09:35 PM   #34
Mares
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Quote:
Originally posted by darin


Secondly, the style of fighting in these tournaments is very refined. Aikido uses intricate locks and throws that are very difficult to apply to someone who is not wearing a gi, strong, very quick and is wet with sweat.


Does this mean that Aikido is useless outside of a dojo because last time I checked very few people walk around the streets in gi's. Damn it, so I've wasted all these years.

Enough of the sarcasim, no offence intended darin but to me that appears to be a silly statement. Where I train there are some pretty strong guys with strong grips. I don't know how strong those NHB fighters are (and i imagine they are extremely strong) but I'd like to think Aikido techniques are powerful enough to get through strength. We are constantly reminded that if u require strength to power through a technique odds are you are doing it incorectly, ie not enough kokyu, wrong angle etc.

As far as speed is concerned alot of that has to do with your maai or distancing, reaction times and whether you pick up the attack early. I guess in a real fight it could be argued that it all comes down to luck. But dare I say it, if u believe they are faster than u, then they already have u beaten.

Wet and sweaty, all I have to say is, Have you done a Udansha class during summer? especially in Australia where it is usually in the mid 30s and even as high as 40 degrees.
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Old 09-04-2001, 10:51 PM   #35
darin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mares



Does this mean that Aikido is useless outside of a dojo because last time I checked very few people walk around the streets in gi's. Damn it, so I've wasted all these years.

Enough of the sarcasim, no offence intended darin but to me that appears to be a silly statement. Where I train there are some pretty strong guys with strong grips. I don't know how strong those NHB fighters are (and i imagine they are extremely strong) but I'd like to think Aikido techniques are powerful enough to get through strength. We are constantly reminded that if u require strength to power through a technique odds are you are doing it incorectly, ie not enough kokyu, wrong angle etc.

As far as speed is concerned alot of that has to do with your maai or distancing, reaction times and whether you pick up the attack early. I guess in a real fight it could be argued that it all comes down to luck. But dare I say it, if u believe they are faster than u, then they already have u beaten.

Wet and sweaty, all I have to say is, Have you done a Udansha class during summer? especially in Australia where it is usually in the mid 30s and even as high as 40 degrees.
No I didn't say that aikido is useless outside of the dojo. Its just my answer to why no aikidoka has gone in and won a NHB tournament using only aikido techniques. Same could be said for kung fu, tae kwondo and karate.

I think aikido is fairly easy to escape from. Once a person learns the kaeshi waza and is reasonably strong its very difficult for a technique to be put on him. Even Mochizuki Kancho said that aikido techniques are easy to escape from. I read somewhere that he had trouble using Daito Ryu techniques against savate and wrestlers in Europe. He would change to Judo and win easily. This is why Yoseikan style has many karate, jujitsu and judo techniques.

I have a 3rd dan in aikido and have trained with many yudansha in all seasons. Yes slippery in summer. Good workout!

Thanks.
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Old 09-05-2001, 01:37 AM   #36
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by darin

Once a person learns the kaeshi waza and is reasonably strong its very difficult for a technique to be put on him.
I thought that at shodan+ level of the art the practitioner understands that it's not him who's putting the technique on the attacker, but the attacker is putting that technique on himself with the assistance of the Aikido practitioner.

If the attacker gets out of a technique, good for him. If he is not retreating, use whatever energy he's investing, to slip him into another technique... what's the problem here ?
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Old 09-05-2001, 05:22 AM   #37
andrew
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
These kinds of dicussions are really pointless in a forum like this.
Absoloutely! (and I still haven't read past this message...)

However, somebody posted the rules of, I think it was, the UFC on a thread here a few months back. Effectively they said atemi are not allowed. I've got to go along with Ubaldos comments about entering a competition where somebody else made the rules here, then.

For the record, I actually read the last paragraph of Jims post (which I've not left above there). It's not sarcasm really- it's just plain english commonsense, isn't it?

andrew
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Old 09-05-2001, 10:01 AM   #38
arvin m.
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Hey all, having read this post i'm reminded of this documentary which i watched regarding muay thai fighters in thailand. Supposedly, a bunch of hongkong martial artistes wished to disprove the Thai claim that muay thai was the king of all martial arts...they got their asses whipped in five seconds flat against every muay thai chap they faced...they wnet back again several years later on a vendetta and still got thrashed...these muay thai fellows arent unlike the UFC chaps...but they come from much more impoverishd and brutal backgrounds...if u want brutal, see these guys in thailand folks!!

Anyways, i was just wondering...see when we stance we have one of our legs forward yes? Doesnt this expose that leg to a low kick or something?(K i alreadi see pple chanting ma'ai)

As always, thanx for the comments!! Great post by the way, made me think alot abt having to plummel my opponents to teach them a lesson...i'll remember to send them flowers when their in the hospital next time yah? hehe...take care folks
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Old 09-05-2001, 10:28 AM   #39
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by andrew
However, somebody posted the rules of, I think it was, the UFC on a thread here a few months back. Effectively they said atemi are not allowed. I've got to go along with Ubaldos comments about entering a competition where somebody else made the rules here, then.
http://www.ufc.tv/history/rules.html

Those are the rules of the UFC. They've added so many due to pressure from legislators in the US. The idea being to remove the brutality from it.

We're a strange country in some ways. We like our brain damage to be caused slowly and consistently rather than all at once. Less painful on the viewers I suppose.
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Old 09-05-2001, 10:34 AM   #40
mj
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I thought you meant the viewers were being brain-damaged Erik

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Old 09-05-2001, 11:52 AM   #41
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj
I thought you meant the viewers were being brain-damaged Erik
Nah, that's a foregone conclusion. The WWF (not the world wildlife federation) owns the top-rated cable programs in the USA. The viewer side of the house is already lost.

Actually, I've watched wrestling.....

Last edited by Erik : 09-05-2001 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 09-05-2001, 06:35 PM   #42
yoshi
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Quote:
What we see, is a young Tohei Sensei struggling, with quite some difficulty, with the older guy.
Though Tohei Sensei seemed to be struggling,he was still able to maintain his balance under such circumstances(i believe all of us had those playful struggles with friends before and it ain't easy to maintain balance ,taking to consideration that tohei sensei was actually 'sparring' with that guy.).And if you notice,the way tohei sensei brought the guy down to the floor was actually kinda amazing(it didn't seem so to me initially.).I don't think i would be able to bring the guy down the way he did.
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Old 09-05-2001, 10:39 PM   #43
guest1234
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I haven't seen the film with Tohei Sensei that you are talking about, but I do know that at 5'5" I am probably taller than he. I also know what it is like trying to do techniques on much larger male beginners who don't know how to fall, so you have to take into account not hurting them while dealing with someone larger throwing a lot of weight and force at you. I am happy then if I just avoid hurting them. I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.
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Old 09-05-2001, 11:33 PM   #44
SCAikidoka
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Hi im new to this forum but heres what I have to say. In NHB events such as UFC and pride Small joint manipulation and pressure points are illegal i believe. Now I really like watching these programs but in no way do I recognize what I see as budo or martial arts. These are athletes and their sport is fighting. They study fighting arts. An Aikidoka trains to protect themself, but these men practically live in the gym sparring, lifting weights, and increasing their ability to decimate someone. Now inside a ring or an octagon an aikidoka who trains practical real life techniques would definitly not stand a chance against one of these hurt machines. However, Im sure that there are many aikidoka that could alter their training and surely become very dangerous in one of these events. I train as hard as I can so I can have very effective technique, but I dont feel the need to ever have to prove it or the art i train to anyone.

-Jesse
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Old 09-06-2001, 05:11 AM   #45
Kami
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Cool Tohei Sensei's fight with a westerner

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.
KAMI : Exactly my point, Colleen! And the video is "RENDEZ-VOUS WITH ADVENTURE", part of a 6 tape series on O-Sensei commercialized by Stanley Pranin, of Aikido Journal. It's a very interesting tape. And I still think it was a mistake staging that match...
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 09-06-2001, 08:46 AM   #46
Irony
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Wow. I just looked at UFC rules, and KAMI's right, there's no way an aikidoka could win that. No "Small joint manipulation". No "Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury."

No avoiding contact? We'd have to chance! We'd try to keep ma'ai and be disqualified!

Chris Pasley
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Old 09-06-2001, 08:48 AM   #47
Irony
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I meant we'd have NO chance.

Chris Pasley
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Old 09-06-2001, 09:19 AM   #48
yoshi
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Quote:
I haven't seen the film with Tohei Sensei that you are talking about, but I do know that at 5'5" I am probably taller than he. I also know what it is like trying to do techniques on much larger male beginners who don't know how to fall, so you have to take into account not hurting them while dealing with someone larger throwing a lot of weight and force at you. I am happy then if I just avoid hurting them. I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.
You can see a short part of the clip here
http://www.aikidojournal.com/Video/index.asp
Initially i was kinda disappointed by the clip because it wasn't what i expected.I asked my sensei abt this before and he told me it was after this incident then did tohei sensei really started to focus on ki principles.Tohei sensei himself was troubled abt this incident himself.Anyway,he finally understood something which made a change.That's why while he was in hawaii,he did not have much difficulty throwing those wrestler or judokas though it was his first time doing the randori.I guess he's the only one(so far known to me)who did the multiple attack in public,throwing 7-8judokas(4thdan and above) ard like rag dolls.
Excuse me if i am wrong in any case or if i offended anyone.
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Old 09-09-2001, 08:52 PM   #49
Scott_in_Kansas
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The "small joint manipulation" in the UFC rules apply to finger and toe locks not wrist or arm manipulation. They still do armbar submissions and ankle submissions so those are legal.

I personally find the banning of "nerve strikes" somewhat troubling. You mean I can't strike a nerve on the guys neck and knock him out but I can strike him on the chin and knock him out and that's okay? Wierd.

Also there seems to be a lot of discussion about SIZE and STRENGTH aikido. Keep in mind in the UFC at least you fight in a weight class, so you are going to weigh within twenty pounds of your opponent. Nonetheless, I have two questions?

1. Do I need to be very strong to do aikido? I'm counting on this martial art to help me defend myself. I live in America and it is rare somebody small attacks someone larger. If some 250 pound ape attacks me (I'm only 175 lbs) is aikido ineffective?

2. Don't we use our opponents energy against themselves? Doesn't this nullify any size argument?

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas
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Old 09-09-2001, 09:06 PM   #50
Irony
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Being a 250 lbs ape, I have to say that size does matter... if your aikido is in any way lacking. There are many times that I could muscle out of things when nage is sloppy or careless. I think the size issue is nullified when aikido is done consistantly well, but I'd be afraid to go up against some one bigger than me. Even though at 6'6" and 260 lbs it would be diffucult to find someone to try it on.

Chris Pasley
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