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Old 06-01-2005, 05:02 PM   #301
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Alan, the debate you are having with some of us isn't because we thing you are young and inexperienced. What makes you sound naiive is the content of your posts. Especially the claim that you could embarrass a professional, UFC level fighter. The claim that people who fight for a living don't know what they are doing. The claim that anyone who has studied Aikido for a good period of time should be able to beat a UFC fighter without problem (this is where your lack of experience in Aikido is a problem). No, people will not take your word on these things. Some claims seem so unlikely people need to see evidence to accept them. If I stated that I was actually George Bush posting under a pseudonym, people would want to see some evidence of that. Same thing here. Personally I think you need to find someone to test your claims against. I hope you manage to get in touch with Kevin Rosier. I think once you've really done this your training and approach to it will be better for it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-01-2005, 05:08 PM   #302
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

two P.S.
1. I don't think anyone has claimed that Aikido is ineffective. Simply that it's not designed for, and would not be all that useful in, defeating an MMA style fighter. Which is quite different to saying it is not useful for self defence.
2. If you are a troll (which I'm still undecided on ) kudos, it's a good job.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-02-2005, 10:24 PM   #303
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

See...Mr. Fooks....that's my point....is not aikido made for a smaller person to ward off a stronger attacker with minimal effort and strength? So...if that's the case why is it not useful in MMA? How come Jason DeLucia can use Aikido techniques and even put out videos on how to use Aikido techniques for MMA and what not...and do it in an effective and successful way? I agree...if an Aikidoka wants to compete in MMA, he or she better learn how to punch, kick, ground fight, and take hits as well, you know? However...I think it's just as effective as any other art if applied properly at the right time...now...when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time. Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:52 AM   #304
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
See...Mr. Fooks....that's my point....is not aikido made for a smaller person to ward off a stronger attacker with minimal effort and strength?
Well yeah, but so is BJJ, and judo. and karate and....show me a martial art that *doesn't* claim that. Just because an MA was designed to do something doesn't mean you instantly have that ability after a bit of practice. Go back to my comments on strength - against skilled trained fighers size and strength matter.
Quote:
So...if that's the case why is it not useful in MMA?
Skilled trained fighters who are not assaulting you so much as fighting in a sparring mindset. Which is *not* what Aikido was designed to deal with
Quote:
How come Jason DeLucia can use Aikido techniques and even put out videos on how to use Aikido techniques for MMA and what not...and do it in an effective and successful way?
Well the jury is still out on Jason.DeLucia. We know he has had some degree of success in MMA. We know he studies Aikido (although it seems to difficult to find out under whom). But there's no evidence that I've seen to date of him *using Aikido tecniques in a competitive setting against MMAers* (let alone anyone at UFC level).
Quote:
when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time.
I agree with your use of "proper technique" where we disagree is that I would contecnt that an MMA fight is not the "right situation".
Quote:
Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
I'm still not sure whether you don't understand MMA fighting or you don't understand Aikido or both. Let us know when you find that school - hell it don't even have to be MMA, a decent BJJ school will do ya.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-03-2005, 08:12 AM   #305
Ron Tisdale
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
However...I think it's just as effective as any other art if applied properly at the right time...now...when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time. Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
a) its not such a bad or naive thing to say

b) its not what you've BEEN saying

c) its really easy to say...not so easy to DO under PREASURE

d) the false bravado on the net is old...and getting older...

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-03-2005, 03:17 PM   #306
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I think you are splitting hairs. You will never have two people agree on exactly what aikido is or isn't, or what it can do, or was designed to do.

There are aikido techniques that will work in MMA situations. There are techniques that will not work.

It is up to the individual to find and discover what they want aikido to do for them.

What I believe you will find is that the aiki principles in aikido are universal principles, at least that is what I have heard Saotome sensei preach over and over and over...it is not about learning technique, but learning principles. I can say with 100% degree certainty that the PRINCIPLES of aikido can be applied 100% to MMA and must to ultimately be sucessful. Technique is complete a different matter.

What I think where things breakdown and get devisive is over technique. Strategy comes before technique. Most Aikido training methodologies, or strategy does not align very well with MMA, and therefore you find that many will say "no" aikido does not work...others say yes aikido works.

Both sides are missing the whole point. It is about learning principles.

If my focus was soley on MMA fighting, then I can think of much more effective training strategies/methodologies than wasting my time with aikido.

If my objective was self defense, I can think of many bettter ways than wasting my time with aikido. To include the proper use of pepper spray, a ASP baton, marksmanship classes etc.

If my objective was to be the baddest dude on the block and run around and tell everyone how I can beat everyone up and that every other style other than what I do is crap i'd spend my time surrounding myself with people and a system that supported and confirmed my delusional state.

If my objective was to understand dyanmics of movement, a better understanding of martial movement, balance, control, understanding the mind/autonomic nervous system, how perceptions, attitudes, and paradigms, emotions, personalities, egos, play into the whole of the human sphere...and how all that relates to the physical manifestation of conflict, well I would spend my time with an internal art like aikido or tai chi. Why? it helps me become a better person, resolve conflict at the lowest level, gain more subtleness in my martial abilities etc.

It simply is not very good at developing what I would call "short/direct/effective martial skills. Certainly the techniques are there, but we could argue all day about which ones are and are not right for what particular situation.
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Old 06-03-2005, 05:57 PM   #307
L. Camejo
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I think the issue of effectiveness has less to do with what techniques you know and a lot more to do with how you handle yourself when under serious pressure and how well you stick to the principles you've been training in all along (regardless of what system you do).

Anyone can put a few rounds into a paper target accurately or execute a certain strike or technique very well when not under extreme pressure. Do the same thing with someone rushing at you with full intent to seriously damage you and/or with a weapon to take you out and the accuracy and the effectiveness of something learnt under calm conditions may not be so guaranteed. Ron's point "C" above is very apt imo.

It makes no sense imo to learn an entire bag of methods to defend oneself with and have that bag removed from your grasp because your adrenaline dump caused you to freeze or lose motor control. To me the techniques are very secondary.

Part of why Judo, MMA and BJJ type systems work in reality to an extent have to do with the practitioner getting accustomed to applying techniques under pressure and adrenal stress. Aikido training done with similar methods regarding operating under pressure and this sort of stress can have similar results.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-03-2005 at 05:59 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-03-2005, 11:00 PM   #308
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I think the issue of effectiveness has less to do with what techniques you know and a lot more to do with how you handle yourself when under serious pressure and how well you stick to the principles you've been training in all along (regardless of what system you do).

Anyone can put a few rounds into a paper target accurately or execute a certain strike or technique very well when not under extreme pressure. Do the same thing with someone rushing at you with full intent to seriously damage you and/or with a weapon to take you out and the accuracy and the effectiveness of something learnt under calm conditions may not be so guaranteed. Ron's point "C" above is very apt imo.

It makes no sense imo to learn an entire bag of methods to defend oneself with and have that bag removed from your grasp because your adrenaline dump caused you to freeze or lose motor control. To me the techniques are very secondary.

Part of why Judo, MMA and BJJ type systems work in reality to an extent have to do with the practitioner getting accustomed to applying techniques under pressure and adrenal stress. Aikido training done with similar methods regarding operating under pressure and this sort of stress can have similar results.

Just a few thoughts.
LC
Good thoughts, Mr. Camejo! Considering that Law Enforcement personnel are taught Aikido techniques (of which I know many cops who are teachers of Aikido) just vindicates the fact that aikido works just as well as any other martial art under pressure...of course...if applied appropriately by the individual and what not and I know that we ALL can agree that cops can come under a lot of pressure!
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:24 AM   #309
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

good points Larry..this has been my experience too!
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:43 PM   #310
SlowLerner
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I realise this is an old thread, but it is a topic I have been considering lately.

I think the problem with applying Aikido in NHB comps is the goals are totally different.
NHB is about dominating someone, Aikido is about keeping yourself and others out of harm.

On the technique side of things, the objectives of the UFC is to either knock someone out with a strike, choke/strangle them out or make them submit with a joint lock.
Traditional Aikido doesn't teach you any of these things in my experience.

It is like bringing a cricket bat to a tennis match.
(Although if I had a tennis racquet and Roger Federer had a cricket bat he would probably still beat me at tennis..)

I realise Aikido has throws and pins, but they dont fit with the objectives of the UFC.
Some Aikido techniques will only be practical if weapons are involved...

Does this make Aikido useless in 'real life'?

On the application side of things, the techniques aren't necessarily meant to 'work' in all situations (although they might), but are just tools to teach you Aiki. Like a cookbook is used to teach you how to cook.
If you try to apply a specific technique at a specific time, it's like trying to bake and eat the cookbook.
This is what I believe the 'formless' (Takemusu) side of Aikido is about; applying principals, not techniques.

Perhaps some of the underlying principals you learn from studying the techniques can be carried across, but fighting people is different to controlling people / staying out of harm.

I feel people need to consider the context they want their personal style to be effective in and train accordingly.

Last edited by SlowLerner : 02-11-2016 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:28 AM   #311
SlowLerner
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

BTW. When I refer to joint locks above I mean arm bars etc applied as an end goal. Of course there are joint locks in Aikido but I believe they are used for kazushi and to allow transition to other techniques.

Last edited by SlowLerner : 02-12-2016 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 02-12-2016, 05:17 PM   #312
earnest aikidoka
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Scott Walton wrote: View Post
Everytime I watch one of those No Holds Barred Fighting Tournaments (UFC, Pride, Extreme Fighting) I always wonder how a seasoned aikido practitioner would do. A skilled aikido practioner should be able to defend against type of attack reasonable well and a master should be able to fend of even skilled attackers quite easily. So why haven't we seen one?

I know that as aikido practitioners we use our art for self-defense so seeking a fight is kind of against our creed, but I get frustrated when I see all these mixed martial artists claiming their fighting system is supreme and that the traditional arts are outdated and ineffective. Most of these fighters aren't even martial artists but wrestlers with a few months of boxing training. Are they more effective than an aikido practioner with years/decades of training under his belt?

Anybody got an opinion on this?

Scott in Kansas
Aikido would not work in NHB fighting, but not for the reasons you would think.

The difference between the two, I would think, can be expressed between competitive and combative shooting.

A soldier would shoot differently from an Olympic marksman. A soldier would utilize different shooting techniques and principles geared towards a high-stress, instinct heavy environment. Which could vary from shooting to kill, to defending a vital objective or person, sometimes under situations where the soldier is weighed down by armor, gear or civilians.

An Olympic Marksman would shoot to score points, in a controlled environment where the focus is to place their shots to get their points. The stress, while present, would significantly differ from the kind of stress a soldier would be subjected to. As a result, their preparation would also be different.

Now aikido is a budo, akin to military shooting. It is a skill devoted to training a person to act calmly in situations that could provide great challenges. Multiple opponents, weapons, hostages, the situations an aikidoka would face can be compared to a battlefield. Let your guard down, and death occurs.

NHB is fighting in a controlled, competitive environment. Just like an Olympic Marksman. A stressful yet static situation that necessitates intense focus on the objective of victory against an opponent in an generally unchanging situation. Aikido, in contrast demands an open, flexible mind and broad focus, aware of any potential dangers that could harm you or loved ones.

The competitive shooting and military shooting are two different beasts, requiring different methods of taming. Aikido and NHB fighting is the same thing, an Aikidoka would likely not have much success in a ring. At the same time, a NHB fighter would probably be the worst off if he attacked an Aikidoka in a bar or street. Both are effective in their own way, in their own times and their own environments.

An Aikidoka could survive in a cage, but he would likely not win. A NHB fighter could escape a knife attack, but he would likely not have known how to defuse or avoid an attack altogether. Which is better?
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:46 AM   #313
Michael Douglas
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Steven Wright wrote: View Post
I realise this is an old thread, .
2005 is almost last century.
I have a child younger than this thread!
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:46 PM   #314
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
2005 is almost last century.
I have a child younger than this thread!
Your child is certainly a lot more interesting, too. But I guess all worn debates need rehashing for new generations...
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Old 02-13-2016, 07:57 PM   #315
SlowLerner
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Steven Wright wrote: View Post
applying principals, not techniques.
Might work in the school yard. LOL!
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:20 PM   #316
kewms
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
An Aikidoka could survive in a cage, but he would likely not win. A NHB fighter could escape a knife attack, but he would likely not have known how to defuse or avoid an attack altogether. Which is better?
Fighting in a cage is optional. Dealing with real life is not.

Also, I'd much rather describe the events in question as "mixed martial arts." It's pretty silly to call any event with a referee "no holds barred."

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 02-13-2016 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 02-14-2016, 07:42 AM   #317
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Old thread, same old arguments... nihil sub sole novum.

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Old 02-14-2016, 07:51 AM   #318
dps
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Probably has been posted before:

http://aikido-mma.blogspot.com/

dps
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:36 AM   #319
earnest aikidoka
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Fighting in a cage is optional. Dealing with real life is not.

Also, I'd much rather describe the events in question as "mixed martial arts." It's pretty silly to call any event with a referee "no holds barred."

Katherine
OP's post, OP's rules, OP's definitions. And some people fight because that's how they put food on the table. To them, that ain't much of an option.
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Old 02-14-2016, 04:48 PM   #320
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Fighting in a cage is optional. Dealing with real life is not.

Also, I'd much rather describe the events in question as "mixed martial arts." It's pretty silly to call any event with a referee "no holds barred."

Katherine
Fighting is a cage is totally stupid and for the most part creates stupid people. I can't even watch that crap. Aikido is far better than that; We aim to avoid trouble so walking into a cage to fight is about as stupid as you can get.

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Old 02-14-2016, 07:29 PM   #321
rugwithlegs
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Wow, lotta people came out on Valentine's Day for this.

MMA is a business and sport venture. Many other arts now are, and they want money and food on the table. Letting some arts and schools tell you what is reality is, is like asking a used car salesman what he thinks the best cars are, and if he thinks you need to buy a new car. Yes, we are all where we are because we have a bias and a preference.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:17 AM   #322
sakumeikan
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Re: Groundwork

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote: View Post
Jim, aikidoka are NOT capable of groundwork.
(Newaza)
Of course, neither are boxers, kick boxers etc. It doesn't detract from their ability, but it certainly means that they will NOT win a fight on the ground against a groundwork fighter.
However, suwari-waza will give aikidoka an advantage on the ground against an opponent who does not know groundwork.
I would like to add that I agree with the fact that arts come and go. Arts, lately, seem designed to beat the last art that was the fad.
See where you are weak, strengthen, move on.
Personally I think aikido is for people who have decided not to fight. For whatever reason.
Groundwork is not very aiki, until you can do it.
Then it IS aiki. But you still have to learn it to do it. Get ready for pain and exhaustion if you do...
Dear Mark,
Having practiced with a lot of Aikidoka I can say that your syayement about aikidoka not being able to do newaza is incorrect. The late Chiba Sensei was not only tremendous at suwariwaza he also was quite formidable in groundwork.His father in law;Sekiya Sensei \ was also very good a holddowns.He held me down with Kesa Gatame and despite my experience of Judo I could not budge him.You seem to believe that aikidoka are somehow passive .Not in my book .You might want to meet some guys I know who you would not want to tangle with.Hery Ellis is always saying that there are too many people promoting aikido as flowery stuff.I tend to agree with him.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:17 AM   #323
rugwithlegs
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'd much rather describe the events in question as "mixed martial arts." It's pretty silly to call any event with a referee "no holds barred."

Katherine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixe...ial_arts_rules

The rules governing most MMA associations.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:49 AM   #324
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Groundwork

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
The late Chiba Sensei was not only tremendous at suwariwaza he also was quite formidable in groundwork.His father in law;Sekiya Sensei \ was also very good a holddowns.He held me down with Kesa Gatame and despite my experience of Judo I could not budge him..
I believe both Chiba and Sekiya had years of Judo expereince before starting Aikido.

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Old 02-15-2016, 06:02 AM   #325
rugwithlegs
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Judo experience before Aikido? Yeah, so did Shioda. So did Tomiki. So did Morihei Ueshiba.
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