Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-01-2005, 05:02 PM   #301
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Alan, the debate you are having with some of us isn't because we thing you are young and inexperienced. What makes you sound naiive is the content of your posts. Especially the claim that you could embarrass a professional, UFC level fighter. The claim that people who fight for a living don't know what they are doing. The claim that anyone who has studied Aikido for a good period of time should be able to beat a UFC fighter without problem (this is where your lack of experience in Aikido is a problem). No, people will not take your word on these things. Some claims seem so unlikely people need to see evidence to accept them. If I stated that I was actually George Bush posting under a pseudonym, people would want to see some evidence of that. Same thing here. Personally I think you need to find someone to test your claims against. I hope you manage to get in touch with Kevin Rosier. I think once you've really done this your training and approach to it will be better for it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2005, 05:08 PM   #302
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

two P.S.
1. I don't think anyone has claimed that Aikido is ineffective. Simply that it's not designed for, and would not be all that useful in, defeating an MMA style fighter. Which is quite different to saying it is not useful for self defence.
2. If you are a troll (which I'm still undecided on ) kudos, it's a good job.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2005, 10:24 PM   #303
Sanshouaikikai
Dojo: Kin Tora Martial Arts and Fitness Center
Location: Buffalo, New York
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

See...Mr. Fooks....that's my point....is not aikido made for a smaller person to ward off a stronger attacker with minimal effort and strength? So...if that's the case why is it not useful in MMA? How come Jason DeLucia can use Aikido techniques and even put out videos on how to use Aikido techniques for MMA and what not...and do it in an effective and successful way? I agree...if an Aikidoka wants to compete in MMA, he or she better learn how to punch, kick, ground fight, and take hits as well, you know? However...I think it's just as effective as any other art if applied properly at the right time...now...when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time. Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 01:52 AM   #304
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
See...Mr. Fooks....that's my point....is not aikido made for a smaller person to ward off a stronger attacker with minimal effort and strength?
Well yeah, but so is BJJ, and judo. and karate and....show me a martial art that *doesn't* claim that. Just because an MA was designed to do something doesn't mean you instantly have that ability after a bit of practice. Go back to my comments on strength - against skilled trained fighers size and strength matter.
Quote:
So...if that's the case why is it not useful in MMA?
Skilled trained fighters who are not assaulting you so much as fighting in a sparring mindset. Which is *not* what Aikido was designed to deal with
Quote:
How come Jason DeLucia can use Aikido techniques and even put out videos on how to use Aikido techniques for MMA and what not...and do it in an effective and successful way?
Well the jury is still out on Jason.DeLucia. We know he has had some degree of success in MMA. We know he studies Aikido (although it seems to difficult to find out under whom). But there's no evidence that I've seen to date of him *using Aikido tecniques in a competitive setting against MMAers* (let alone anyone at UFC level).
Quote:
when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time.
I agree with your use of "proper technique" where we disagree is that I would contecnt that an MMA fight is not the "right situation".
Quote:
Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
I'm still not sure whether you don't understand MMA fighting or you don't understand Aikido or both. Let us know when you find that school - hell it don't even have to be MMA, a decent BJJ school will do ya.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 08:12 AM   #305
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
However...I think it's just as effective as any other art if applied properly at the right time...now...when I say "properly" I'm not saying that you have to do certain techniques perfectly like you would do during a test...but "properly" as in the right technique for the right situation at the right time. Why is that such a bad and naive thing to say?
a) its not such a bad or naive thing to say

b) its not what you've BEEN saying

c) its really easy to say...not so easy to DO under PREASURE

d) the false bravado on the net is old...and getting older...

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 03:17 PM   #306
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I think you are splitting hairs. You will never have two people agree on exactly what aikido is or isn't, or what it can do, or was designed to do.

There are aikido techniques that will work in MMA situations. There are techniques that will not work.

It is up to the individual to find and discover what they want aikido to do for them.

What I believe you will find is that the aiki principles in aikido are universal principles, at least that is what I have heard Saotome sensei preach over and over and over...it is not about learning technique, but learning principles. I can say with 100% degree certainty that the PRINCIPLES of aikido can be applied 100% to MMA and must to ultimately be sucessful. Technique is complete a different matter.

What I think where things breakdown and get devisive is over technique. Strategy comes before technique. Most Aikido training methodologies, or strategy does not align very well with MMA, and therefore you find that many will say "no" aikido does not work...others say yes aikido works.

Both sides are missing the whole point. It is about learning principles.

If my focus was soley on MMA fighting, then I can think of much more effective training strategies/methodologies than wasting my time with aikido.

If my objective was self defense, I can think of many bettter ways than wasting my time with aikido. To include the proper use of pepper spray, a ASP baton, marksmanship classes etc.

If my objective was to be the baddest dude on the block and run around and tell everyone how I can beat everyone up and that every other style other than what I do is crap i'd spend my time surrounding myself with people and a system that supported and confirmed my delusional state.

If my objective was to understand dyanmics of movement, a better understanding of martial movement, balance, control, understanding the mind/autonomic nervous system, how perceptions, attitudes, and paradigms, emotions, personalities, egos, play into the whole of the human sphere...and how all that relates to the physical manifestation of conflict, well I would spend my time with an internal art like aikido or tai chi. Why? it helps me become a better person, resolve conflict at the lowest level, gain more subtleness in my martial abilities etc.

It simply is not very good at developing what I would call "short/direct/effective martial skills. Certainly the techniques are there, but we could argue all day about which ones are and are not right for what particular situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 05:57 PM   #307
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I think the issue of effectiveness has less to do with what techniques you know and a lot more to do with how you handle yourself when under serious pressure and how well you stick to the principles you've been training in all along (regardless of what system you do).

Anyone can put a few rounds into a paper target accurately or execute a certain strike or technique very well when not under extreme pressure. Do the same thing with someone rushing at you with full intent to seriously damage you and/or with a weapon to take you out and the accuracy and the effectiveness of something learnt under calm conditions may not be so guaranteed. Ron's point "C" above is very apt imo.

It makes no sense imo to learn an entire bag of methods to defend oneself with and have that bag removed from your grasp because your adrenaline dump caused you to freeze or lose motor control. To me the techniques are very secondary.

Part of why Judo, MMA and BJJ type systems work in reality to an extent have to do with the practitioner getting accustomed to applying techniques under pressure and adrenal stress. Aikido training done with similar methods regarding operating under pressure and this sort of stress can have similar results.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-03-2005 at 05:59 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2005, 11:00 PM   #308
Sanshouaikikai
Dojo: Kin Tora Martial Arts and Fitness Center
Location: Buffalo, New York
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I think the issue of effectiveness has less to do with what techniques you know and a lot more to do with how you handle yourself when under serious pressure and how well you stick to the principles you've been training in all along (regardless of what system you do).

Anyone can put a few rounds into a paper target accurately or execute a certain strike or technique very well when not under extreme pressure. Do the same thing with someone rushing at you with full intent to seriously damage you and/or with a weapon to take you out and the accuracy and the effectiveness of something learnt under calm conditions may not be so guaranteed. Ron's point "C" above is very apt imo.

It makes no sense imo to learn an entire bag of methods to defend oneself with and have that bag removed from your grasp because your adrenaline dump caused you to freeze or lose motor control. To me the techniques are very secondary.

Part of why Judo, MMA and BJJ type systems work in reality to an extent have to do with the practitioner getting accustomed to applying techniques under pressure and adrenal stress. Aikido training done with similar methods regarding operating under pressure and this sort of stress can have similar results.

Just a few thoughts.
LC
Good thoughts, Mr. Camejo! Considering that Law Enforcement personnel are taught Aikido techniques (of which I know many cops who are teachers of Aikido) just vindicates the fact that aikido works just as well as any other martial art under pressure...of course...if applied appropriately by the individual and what not and I know that we ALL can agree that cops can come under a lot of pressure!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2005, 04:24 AM   #309
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

good points Larry..this has been my experience too!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
failed? Leon Aman General 15 09-28-2006 05:15 AM
Aikido, the military and fighting Guilty Spark Spiritual 82 06-27-2006 05:26 PM
What is the nature of modern fighting Don General 10 11-03-2004 03:27 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:02 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate