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Old 05-29-2005, 08:43 PM   #276
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
The only point of breaking down a fight into "ranges" is for training
Wow...was that obvious or what? That's exactly what I meant when I said;"That's why the techniques are broken down into "ranges" to better understand the science of fighting." The approach to trapping in Jeet Kune Do is an approach that one would use on the type of fighter you mentioned when you said: "...opponent keeps their guard by their face and punches like a boxer (pulling their hand back to their face immediately after the punch)."
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Old 05-30-2005, 04:59 PM   #277
Pankration90
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Sanshouaikikai,

Have you read "Jun Fan Gung Fu Seeking the Path of Jeet Kune Do" by Kevin Seaman? Even he admits that trapping is difficult against a boxer. This quote reflects my experiences exactly:
Quote:
Jun Fan Gung Fu, page 143 wrote:
Q. My brother does Amateur Boxing. He moves so quickly, I can't seem to trap his hand. Does trapping really work?

A. A boxer's structure makes trapping very difficult. When a boxer hits, they bring their hand right back to their head and usually follow up immediately with a combination. This structure is difficult to trap. Bruce Lee knew this and adapted Jun Fan's kickboxing to handle this problem. In some cases, the best you can achieve is to momentarily trap their punch in flight or capture it in the chamber.
Do you know how it was adapted to deal with a boxer? Bruce Lee incorporated boxing.

From what I've seen, a lot of JKD guys don't have a scientific approach to fighting. They have a theoretical approach. A scientific approach would be based on empirical evidence, which would require everything to be pressure tested. The stuff that failed would then be thrown out the window. If you want to see scientific JKD, look at the straight blast gym.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 05-30-2005 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 05-30-2005, 07:39 PM   #278
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
momentarily trap their punch in flight or capture it in the chamber.
You CAN do it...it just takes some time and work...but of course...no one on the streets is going to box you anyway and if they do then they're not good enough boxers so it would be easy anyway, LOL! Why would a boxer or any martial artist be trying to mug people on the streets? Their career must really suck or something! LOL! So it wouldn't be much of a challenge then.

Quote:
From what I've seen, a lot of JKD guys don't have a scientific approach to fighting. They have a theoretical approach
Like you said..."from what I've seen..." I quite frankly don't know who YOU'VE seen that's a JKD guy that has a theoretical approach to fighting and not a scientific approach. Read "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" which was written by Bruce himself...it'll tell you how scientific and "clinically proven" Jeet Kune Do is. So...as far as I'm concerned you most likely weren't looking at REAL JKD guys or something....and if they were then they are a very rare case of JKD people!
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:54 AM   #279
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
. Read "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" which was written by Bruce himself...it'll tell you how scientific and "clinically proven" Jeet Kune Do is. So...as far as I'm concerned you most likely weren't looking at REAL JKD guys or something....and if they were then they are a very rare case of JKD people!
Umm....I think this is kind of the point. You're basing the scientificness of it on what burce lee wrote in a book. First of all, you need to stop quoting Bruce Lee as if his work is scripture, it makes you sound, well...young. He's not the final word in martial arts, not even close.

The question that's being raised is one of training methodology. What Phillip is saying is that much of the JKD he has seen (SBG notwithstanding) has been in the form of one step sparring type stuff (much like Aikido) as opposed to pressure tested, full resisting sparring matches. Now are you saying that at your JKD school you do go full contact, full resistance and pressure test or are you saying that you beleive the techniques work because bruce lee said so in a book?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-31-2005, 10:32 AM   #280
rob_liberti
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I keep reading this "pressure testing" idea in aikido threads, and I'm starting to get the idea that many people training aikido are not pressure testing their techniques. I guess I don't really understand their process of training then. Isn't the point to continually add power, intensity, drama, etc in a level appropriate way so that the nage can continue to improve? I do this in a coorative model and I got the idea that others in something called a competitive model prettty much do the same thing. Has my aikido gotten to the point where I can sit blind folded in a room and avoid rocks thrown at me by students - most likely not; we'll leave that up to theory because of the whole level-appropiate thing. I do think that my sankyo works a whole lot better because people were challenging it and defeating it for a while until I figured out how I had to change and relax, and hold just so, etc to make the improvements. The challenge should get you thinking and looking to change. If you can't pick it up from class, then it's time to go work with sempai who can help appropriately pressure test your ideas about how to improve things and maybe even give you a pointer or two if your ideas are missing something a bit more fundamental.

My problem with the too fairly exclusive pressure testing approach is that people tend to throw things out before putting enough real time into figuring things out more fundimentally. In some cases this works out really well on the surface level and even helps people get some depth based on their more realitic experiences. It's just that with every pro there is a con. Some of those discarded things might have been REALLY helpful if you had a bit more stick-to-it-ness. YMMV.

Rob
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Old 05-31-2005, 12:50 PM   #281
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
First of all, you need to stop quoting Bruce Lee as if his work is scripture, it makes you sound, well...young. He's not the final word in martial arts, not even close.
Because he's right about everything he said about traditional martial arts...doesn't mean you have to despise his work as not being the final word in martial arts! How is it not? Considering the fact that all these MMA styles and junk came AFTER he died and invented JKD...doesn't that sound like maybe what Bruce Lee wrote and said had a lot of significance to the point where now...you have almost everyone saying how pointless classical styles are? I think you should re-think that quote there Mr. Fooks.

Quote:
The question that's being raised is one of training methodology. What Phillip is saying is that much of the JKD he has seen (SBG notwithstanding) has been in the form of one step sparring type stuff (much like Aikido) as opposed to pressure tested, full resisting sparring matches. Now are you saying that at your JKD school you do go full contact, full resistance and pressure test or are you saying that you beleive the techniques work because bruce lee said so in a book?
Jeet Kune Do is about absorbing what is useful and discarding what is useless. It is about being direct and to the point rather than spinning around like an idiot with your opponent like you're in some ballroom dance like some Aikido techniques I've seen and have been taught. I'm not saying Aikido is ineffective because I will never say such a thing...but...there are some[u] techniques that WE ALL KNOW wouldn't work unless you're a 4th degree or something. Anywho...that's way besides the point...JKD has and always will be about pressure tested, fully resisted, all out sparring. Maybe the one step sparring stuff people have seen is because the schools and/or instructors may come from a more traditional wing chun background or something like that and use that kind of sparring...I don't know...but...from what I've been taught, what I have done, and what I have read...has been true scientific fighting.
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:35 PM   #282
Adam Alexander
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Agreed, I think this is where some have issues with aikido. It simply doesn't necessarily have the right technique for all occasions, especially when a fight goes to the ground, or from the clinch.
I thought that if you applied the techniques we do have (around 3,000 if I understand correctly), you shouldn't be on the ground?

As far as, from the cinch, I thought (again, if I understand correctly) there's LOTS of techniques that still attack the wrists, elbows and shoulders.


Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
You do need to be very careful not to judge aikido from the "game" aspect of MMA since there are many effective techniques that would be negated outside of the NHB "rules".

It is important to keep everything in proper perspective.

Interesting you mention strikes to back of head. They are illegal in most NHB rules. I find that many good fighters will "turtle" or turn there back to you as a strategy. Not good in a "real fight" (whatever that is).
Very true. I guess, from that perspective, why would any of you care about the games in that case?
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:07 PM   #283
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I agree you shouldn't be on the ground, and certainly that is a worthwhile goal to strive for, and I believe ultimately this is what you should be training for. I think in the "DO" arts, you must study this way in order to be reaching for the right goal.

However, once you start looking at the reality of the situation, things don't always go as you plan and the "fight chain" is much more complicated and things become unbalanced, and yes, you do sometimes end up on the ground or in really close like the "clinch".

The problem I have had with aikido wrist, arm, and shoulder techniques as traditionally studied in aikido, pretty much requires your hips to be free from your opponents in order to create the proper dynamic movement for them to work. For the most part you pretty much have to irimi and tenkan or perform kokyu to get them to work. (sorry this is hard to describe here and I know over generalistic).

When someone is controllling your hips or body in a guard or clinch...or even holding on to your clothing/gi, it becomes very difficult to do these movements. Ground fighting jiujustsu systems such as BJJ and Judo have adapted variations and strategies that allow for arm, leg, shoulder techniques that can be done in these close quarters. Fulcrum and leverage points are created using various body parts, like "figure four" etc.

I think it is important to consider many different perspectives and strategies depending on the situation or goal you want to achieve. Aikido certainly is a mature, and comprehensive martial art and given the "DO" nature of it, is correct and complete within the context of it's goals.

It is not necessarily a "complete" art when you consider the other goals such as becoming an martially effective fighter. There certainly are other arts that offer things that aikido does not.

Being an infantryman that may have to go into close quarters combat in dark alleys and houses where many suprises lurk, I certainly do not find aikido to be the answer to martial effectiveness.

I do think however you are missing the point when you look at aikido against MY "yardstick" and say it is not complete or lacking. As a "DO" art, it is fine. 99% of the public simply does not need to martial effectiveness of a police officer or a soldier.

A true martial art today considers modern weapon systems, night vision, kevlar armor, stun guns, technical non-lethal weapons..these things replace classical weapons such as tantos, katanas, muskets etc.

It would be illogical to consider these things apart of a traditional martial art, so why would you even judge aikido against other grappling styles that were designed for a particular reason that may not have anything to do with the goals of aikido?

Hope this makes sense...my 5 year old is sitting here bugging me to "wrastle" with him!

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 05-31-2005 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:10 PM   #284
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Jeet Kune Do is about absorbing what is useful and discarding what is useless.
of course the problem will always be - useless as defined by who ?

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Old 05-31-2005, 02:18 PM   #285
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I pretty much thought human evolvement was about absorbing what was useful and discarding what is useless!
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Old 05-31-2005, 03:05 PM   #286
Tony Hudspith
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Hi
As a 3rd Dan Aikidoka of many years practise and also a cagefight practitioner I can see the views of many on both sides. I agree that Aikido should not be competitive and that the way of harmony is the right and just way. However, I felt as though I could with testing my skills (Not just Aikido) and therefore took part in a cagefight. Before the fight I got the rules and many of the Aikido techniques are not "legal" moves as they are "too" effective. Work that one out. I have had to change my game plan and have successfully tapped out a few people in practice with a simple nikyo. The "referee" was quick to jump in and stop this with a frown on his face but let it go.
In a summary Aikido is effective given the opportunity but when it comes down to it, no-one wants to try it out for real do they?!?!?!
Practice with Aikido in your hearts

Tony

Last edited by Tony Hudspith : 05-31-2005 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Taking incorrect info out
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Old 05-31-2005, 10:26 PM   #287
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Before the fight I got the rules and many of the Aikido techniques are not "legal" moves as they are "too" effective.
That's exactly my point! Wow! Of course...no one's going to believe that 'cause they can't possibly pay tuition to a dojo that teaches an effective style of fighting/ self defense!
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:47 AM   #288
Roy Dean
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Alan M. Rodriguez = Troll of the Year

You ride the line between naivete and martial zealotry with brilliant balance. Well done!
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:54 AM   #289
Talon
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Agreed completely!!

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Alan M. Rodriguez = Troll of the Year

You ride the line between naivete and martial zealotry with brilliant balance. Well done!
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:53 PM   #290
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Alan M. Rodriguez = Troll of the Year

You ride the line between naivete and martial zealotry with brilliant balance. Well done!
Thank you! Thank you! I'm honored to have at least won some recognition in so little time! I can agree totally with the zealotry part...however...I did not intend to be zealous about anything...that all came with the frustration of finding it so difficult to get through everyone's narrow minded and thick skulls something so simple! The naivete part...I totally disagree with...of course...you're obviously going to say something full of prejudice like that 'cause none you guys can handle an 18 year old or any younger person for that matter speaking the truth. Like they always say...the truth hurts...I think it hurts even more when it comes from someone that's not experienced or high ranking in Aikido! However, thanks again!
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:05 PM   #291
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

By the way...calling me a troll was very accurate! For as Webster defines it is, "any of a race of supernatural beings, variously conceived of as giants or dwarfs, living underground or in caves." The only thing I would disagree with is "the underground or in caves" part...I am quite seclusive to an extent...but I do get out a lot...so..that last part doesn't define me ALL that well...but then again...I'm even more honoured in being called "Troll of the Year" or as according to Websters definition, "Supernatural Being of the Year!" Thanks again!
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:14 PM   #292
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Can't believe I am even going to entertain responding to you at this point...oh well, I am in a mood so, might as well.

I have been on here for a few years and have not found the majority of the people here to be thick headed or narrow minded, frankly I find you more in that category. If you'd stop talking so much, sorry preaching...then you might find that there are some really good people on here that have years of experience from both doing the right things and making mistakes.

The only truths that I have seen on here from you is that you like to talk. Many people have patiently responded to your post, many people have attempted to present you with opporunities, to help educate, and assist you in understanding things, to challenge you...and you fail to respond PERIOD.

Mr Delucia, a well respected fighter, has presented you with an opportunity.

Mr Seiser, presented you with evidence that a guy you quoted as an expert is a witnessed fraud.

I could go on.

I really, really wish I were close to you so I could come train with you and give you the OPPORTUNITY to SHOW me the TRUTH. I think with my background and experience I'd be able to handle it physically and emotionally. (I do have a thick head though...that much is true!).

I am not into putting people into ignore mode, but you my young friend do not impress me with your level of maturity in the least! Hope this helps you find a way to get along with others here on the board.

Get back to me when you can send us a video of your superior training and THEN I will be impressed and respect you as a man.
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:22 PM   #293
Ron Tisdale
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Nah....superior training doesn't make someone a man...taking care of your responsibilities and behaving like a man does that. He could be the best fighter in the world...wouldn't change my opinion though.

Ron (might change whether or not I say it to his face...)

PS Nah....I'd just have to take the beating...

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:29 PM   #294
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Thanks Ron...that is basically what I meant to say, but of course didn't!
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:36 PM   #295
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Aikido sucks for fighting. If you want to learn to kick some serious butt you HAVE to take BJJ....those guys can beat up WILD BEARS

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:41 PM   #296
Ron Tisdale
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

LOL...saw that on ebudo the other day! Yah, just what *I* want to do...grapple with bears!

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:51 PM   #297
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
none you guys can handle an 18 year old or any younger person for that matter speaking the truth.
I found this quote on the DROPKICK MURPHY'S website at a time in my life when I needed to read it. It helped me re-examine my life and how I interacted with people; perhaps it can help you too.

Quote:
When you're young you think you are invincible and you know everything. Then sometime usually during your late 20's you wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night and realize you're an asshole!
Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:54 PM   #298
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
and you fail to respond PERIOD.

Mr Delucia, a well respected fighter, has presented you with an opportunity.

Mr Seiser, presented you with evidence that a guy you quoted as an expert is a witnessed fraud.
First of all...I do respond...y'all are just too ignorant to understand! (Like how I put the "y'all" in there?) Secondly, I have spoken with Mr. DeLucia (or a representative of Mr. Delcuia [Ms. Rowe]) about that fighter in my area...I'm still trying to get in contact with that individual. Third...I never disagreed with Mr. Seiser...I had just asked him what happened in the Expo and why he thought that way about Mr. Tennenhouse. For...it seemed to me that Mr. Tennenhouse was making some good points there...apparently...according to Mr. Seiser and other reports about the Expo that I have read...made me change my mind on Mr. Tennenhouse...however, not on what he believes. For...Mr. DeLucia does just what Mr. Tennenhouse "hypothesizes" about. Does he not? Is Mr. DeLucia not a well accomplished NHB fighter who incorporates Aikido into his Kung Fu and MMA repetoire and uses it effectively?

Quote:
THEN I will be impressed and respect you as a man
As far as I'm concerned...before I came out with that post that said I was a white belt in Aikido and have been training in it for 3 months now...everyone including Mr. Leavitt here was saying how they wanted to train with me and learn somethings and what not...however...after the "white belt comment" everyone starts the name calling and the "teaching" and what not. So...how am I the immature one? I have been honest with everyone here from the start and you guys are all getting bent out of shape because I say what I say...and it's not so much what I say...but because I don't have the rank to say it! LOL! That sounds immature to me! Just to let you know...I am quite accomplished as a general martial artist in Muay Thai and Kung Fu/JKD...so...I don't see what the big deal is! I think I have just as much "authority" to talk as any black belt here! Especially since I actually have been in REAL altercations before unlike a majority of the black belts here! Also what Mr. Leavitt says here, "Get back to me when you can send us a video of your superior training and THEN I will be impressed and respect you as a man" vindicates what I'm saying! He's basically saying that I have to "prove" myself (even though I have done that many times in many real life altercations as well as challenge matches) to him and the people here in order for them to believe me! Wow...that sounds VERY childish! Can't take someone for their own word these days, huh? I'm a hispanic-american man who lives in a rough neighborhood and I do the best that I can to meet my responsibilites as a Christian, an older brother, and an example to the kids in my community. Often I have had to defend myself against people...and all I wanted to do was share that REAL experience with the people here...and if I had never said that I had just started in Aikido...I guarantee you that no one would have that much of a problem with me...would they? So...again I stand on what I know and believe to be true and no one is going to make me change my mind because they think that they know it all and I don't because I'm 18.

P.S.- One of the teachers in my dojo who is a black belt in aikido is 18 years old. Is he naive and inexperienced? Would you listen to him? Are you guys going to say that he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's young? I guarantee you as well...that me and him share the exact same ideas! So...what do you think?
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Old 06-01-2005, 02:07 PM   #299
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Quote:
When you're young you think you are invincible and you know everything. Then sometime usually during your late 20's you wake up in a sweat in the middle of the night and realize you're an asshole!
I agree with that quote very much, Mr. Bronson...however...that does not apply to me...'cause I know that I don't know it all...in fact...many times on this thread I have said that I am not an expert. In fact...I believe that martial arts like music is an ongoing thing like some of the other guys on this site have said...I think that just because you're an expert and know ALL the techniques in the art does not mean that you stop learning the art. It's all about how one applies their knowledge of the art...not so much how much they know. I know how to apply the techniques that I have learned in other styles including aikido...to real situations. In contrast...I have heard many, many, many stories about black belts of high rank in the martial arts that have been beaten senseless in street fights against 1 person (who was unarmed and unskilled in the MA). However, me and other people...when I was beginning in the martial arts have used my knowledge of it in many of my altercations that I have been in...and I was always the victor!!! So...is rank and "dojo" experience really all that important?
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Old 06-01-2005, 02:29 PM   #300
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

My problem with you lay not in your age, level of knowledge or experience, but your general overall attitude that comes across and level of respect for others. It has nothing to do with rank or age.

In the short few days you have been here you have called people "narrow-minded", "thick-headed" and "igonorant". Of course you did not direct it at any one person, as such, I must assume you mean "us" as a group.

You are not the first person to come to aikido with REAL martial experiences, there are many of us out there that have experiences such as yours and then some. They/we just tend to be a little more humble of them, or sometimes even embarrassed by some of the things we did in our youth that at the time seemed like the thing to do, but as we got older and gained perspective, realized the naivity, foolness, and immaturity of our actions.

It is because of these actions, that we may tend to be patient with you since we have been there done that ourselves.

It may be wrong of me or slightly immature of me to "bait you" into proving yourself via video or other such methods, but frankly sometimes it is the only way to help someone look in the mirror and gain some introspect.

At this point, my prediction is that you probably not "get it" and will grow board with us ignorant, thick-headed, narrow-minded types and simply go on your way like many do that come into this art. Or maybe you will prove me wrong and grow as a person.
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