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Old 05-25-2005, 02:04 PM   #251
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
The only way to substantiate your claims is to do it and show us the video. Don't fight some deadbeat either. Fight someone with a good record and possibly a good street fighting video!

All right, Texas Tim...I will do so...when I have not only the time...but...the opportunity...I WILL do it...here in WNY there's not a lot of MMA stuff, you know? I have actually called and looked up a lot of places to see if I could get into competitions...and there are none! No opportunities for competition for ANYONE interested in that sort of thing. So...if anyone is willing to help me out with that I'll be more than glad to sign up and invite you, Mr. Jester to the fight as well as everyone on this thread!

Quote:
Don't fight some deadbeat either
I would LOATHE the idea of fighting a deadbeat and/or mediocre guy! I always aim for the biggest, toughest, baddest guy out there 'cause you really can't humiliate a deadbeat, LOL!
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:41 PM   #252
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
All right, Texas Tim
I'm from Jersey, just ended up here.

I knew Roy Harris was a BJJ guy but I looked him up for JKD since you mentioned him, and his site is full of really good things. His JKD clinch drills video clip was pretty good. He seems to focus on solid basics.

Good luck in your NHB debut.

p.s. Don't grapple in a public restroom if possible
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Old 05-25-2005, 05:04 PM   #253
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Alan. First of all wrt boxing. The feints, jabs, footwork etc are exactly the things that cannot be safely preserved going from a boxing environment to an MMA one. Read some of Bas Ruttens comments on effective striking in MMA - basically every strike has to be thrown with bad intent.
But lets get to the two broader points which I think are at the heart of what we're talking about.

1. Strength. I think you misunderstand the use of strength in some arts. Wrestlers use technique as much as any martial artist. But they also spa at 100%. Technique is superior when there is a good difference in skill levels. Strength can be used to assist technique that isn't perfect or that is being well defended against. Strength doesn't matter a whole heap when one of the parties is highly skilled and the other isn't. But when skill levels are very similar, attributes (strength size speed endurance) play a major part. This is the same in any art. A skillfill aikidoka can make me hit the mat hard with irimi nage. A strong and skill aikidoka, who is using his strength skillfully, can absolutely bury me in the mat.
The reason why it *seems* that strength is less important in Aikido is that we don't spar with fully resisting opponents (because that's simply not how aikido was designed to work). So we never get to that point where, between similarly matched opponents strength makes the differece.
In short no - wrestling does not rely purely on stength. There is a heap of technique involved. But on a stage like the UFC they are up against other skillful people, so strength is an asset you need to have. As someone said earler - watch high level judo competition. Alot of it looks strength based because the competitors skills cancel each other.

2. "just because most altercations end up on the ground...does not mean that we ALL have to be MMA grapplers who go around tackling people". I know where you're coming from here. But you've made the mirror image of the mistake usually made by the BJJ crowd.
I spend alot of time debating with MMAers and BJJers who think that because say, a BJJer can take out most other martial artists, those martial arts are a waste of time and everyone should do BJJ. There are of course two obvious flaws in that argument.
a. not everyone trains for combat efficiency
b. even if I do train for combat purposes, the fact I can be beaten by a BJJer only bothers me if it's a BJJer I think I'm going to be attacked by. Provided I'm convinced my stuff works against the attacks I'm most likely to face, I'm happy.

Yes, you need to have some knowledge of ground fighting so you can get out of trouble, as you've said. No you don't need to have a "go around tackling" people mindset, just because that's what works in the UFC. BUT, to argue that. and feel the arts you are doing are legitimate DOES NOT mean you have to go around thinking you can beat up UFC fighters. Unless you plan on being attacked by them. Simply put,
What works in the UFC will work in real life BUT that does not imply that what doesn't work in the UFC will not work in real life.
Aikido does not work in UFC type settings. Absolutely not. It would be of limited use against a UFC fighter in a real life setting. But it can be very effective against typical assault type attacks in real life. Isn't that enough?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:50 PM   #254
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Aikido does not work in UFC type settings. Absolutely not.
I'm sure Jason DeLucia will disagree with you.
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:56 PM   #255
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Heh, I wondered if that would come up. I've had a look around Jasons site and downloaded a bunch of the video. I like alot of what he does, but alot of it looks like Aikido mixed with BJJ (which is dear to my heart). The BJJ stuff looks like BJJ, the aikido stuff looks like Aikido and the stuff in between looks...suspect (eg the "ikkyo" approach to guard passing). Jason is from what I can see an aikido enthusiast with a respectable record in MMA. Which is different to saying he's someone who has effectively used identifiable Aikido in MMA matches. If you think he has indeed done that, I would be very keen to see any footage demonstrating it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:11 PM   #256
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Heh, I wondered if that would come up. I've had a look around Jasons site and downloaded a bunch of the video. I like alot of what he does, but alot of it looks like Aikido mixed with BJJ (which is dear to my heart). The BJJ stuff looks like BJJ, the aikido stuff looks like Aikido and the stuff in between looks...suspect (eg the "ikkyo" approach to guard passing). Jason is from what I can see an aikido enthusiast with a respectable record in MMA. Which is different to saying he's someone who has effectively used identifiable Aikido in MMA matches. If you think he has indeed done that, I would be very keen to see any footage demonstrating it.
He's a lot more than just an "enthusiast" -- it's more like a life's work. He's very serious about his aikido, studying and refining his technique and using primary sources (such as O'Sensei's videos) for inspiration.

Ideally, our groundwork's more upright than BJJ (more seiza, less sprawling) -- it's very clear in Jason's Combat Aikido DVDs/tapes but we don't have footage of it on aikidog.com yet and don't have much from his Pancrase fights. It's on the list, but the guy who'd been putting up the footage got a new job and that's really cramped our style. We should be able to get some good stuff up in the next couple of months.
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:20 PM   #257
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Well keep us updated, I know alot of people on this forum (and others) would be keen to see aikido in mma (as opposed to an aikidoka doing bjj, or indeed a bjjer doing aikido ). I many are also curious about Jason's experience in Aikido. Do you know who he learned his aikido from or has it been mainly from the types of primary sources you describe? (BTW if any readers are curious about the quality of his Aikido you can download clips specifically of him doing aikido techniques from the aikidog site).

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:24 PM   #258
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

As a BTW Wendy, I've looked at purchasing some of his DVDs out of interest, but because I couldn't see any examples of Aikido-as-MMA on the site, was hesitent to fork out the $ - particularly when I earn NZ pesos :-) I suspect I'm not alone in that. So if you can get some samples from the dvds on the site it could help him gain a wider audience. MTCW

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:32 PM   #259
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
basically every strike has to be thrown with bad intent.
Faking somewhat out like they do in boxing is a good intention?
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:41 PM   #260
wendyrowe
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
As a BTW Wendy, I've looked at purchasing some of his DVDs out of interest, but because I couldn't see any examples of Aikido-as-MMA on the site, was hesitent to fork out the $ - particularly when I earn NZ pesos :-) I suspect I'm not alone in that. So if you can get some samples from the dvds on the site it could help him gain a wider audience. MTCW
Check the Century website centuryfitness.com -- they've been on sale for a few months and might cost less than you expected. (Jun, if that's considered advertising my apologies and feel free to delete it.) As one of the reviewers on aikidog.com said, they really do show aikido rather than MMA training. But his uke is a fighter who was really resisting and didn't fall to avoid atemi; and uke wasn't an aikido guy so he also didn't take ukemi to avoid getting struck or thrown. There's good full-resistance randori, with my favorite by far at the end of the 5th (final) DVD/tape. We'll try to get some clips from it up on aikidog.com -- I'm sure everyone will enjoy watching it, and Jason told me when I asked recently that we've got permission. So now all we need is some free time to spend on the site's computer and we'll put it up.
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Old 05-25-2005, 09:49 PM   #261
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Cheers, I'll check it out.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-26-2005, 01:57 PM   #262
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Thanks for the info Wendy. I will be sure to purchase one of the videos. I am very interested since I am a somewhat traditional Aikido guy that is now doing MMA and struggling to make much of it work. (doesn't mean that it doesn't, just that I am struggling!).
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:04 PM   #263
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Alan M. Rodriguez,
I don't know how much experience you have with wrestling, bjj, mma, etc. but you make a lot of generalisations and it sounds like you have little experience with those styles.

Wrestling is not about strength. If it is, then why have I been able to successfully use it against people 80 lbs. heavier than me?

MMA isn't about strength, either. If you don't want to bulk up and get huge, compete at a lower weight class. That's what they're for. People compete against people their own size. Big guys fight big guys and small guys fight small guys. There are no big size or strength advantages.

If you really want to prove that mma fighters can't fight, I'll help you find someone to compete against. A guy who lives in Buffalo posts on another forum and he might know someone that you could fight. IMO you are seriously underestimating everyone who doesn't do aikido...
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:44 PM   #264
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Alan M. Rodriguez,
I don't know how much experience you have with wrestling, bjj, mma, etc. but you make a lot of generalisations and it sounds like you have little experience with those styles.

Wrestling is not about strength. If it is, then why have I been able to successfully use it against people 80 lbs. heavier than me?

MMA isn't about strength, either. If you don't want to bulk up and get huge, compete at a lower weight class. That's what they're for. People compete against people their own size. Big guys fight big guys and small guys fight small guys. There are no big size or strength advantages.

If you really want to prove that mma fighters can't fight, I'll help you find someone to compete against. A guy who lives in Buffalo posts on another forum and he might know someone that you could fight. IMO you are seriously underestimating everyone who doesn't do aikido...

First of all...I have much experience with people who practice grappling styles and have defeated all of them. They weren't deadbeats either. So...my so called "generalizations" are not just generalizations and they do not undermine my experience at all and I will agree that it's not all about strength 'cause I too have defeated grapplers much heavier than I through properly applying technique at the right time however...there is a lot of struggling...hence...it requires strength! Secondly, your comment about people competing against others their own size and weight TOTALLY vindicates my viewpoint! What do you think would happen if...a smaller guy (in PRESENT DAY UFC fighting) went up against a bigger guy? The smaller guy would lose 'cause he would be using his strength and what not because they're simply not complete fighters hence they will use techniques that are going to make them lose! However, if they were to keep the bigger guy at bay and use a very good countering strategy that wouldn't require much of their strength but merely speed and timing they would win! However...from what I've seen in a lot of present day UFC and MMA matches are that they just want to wrestle and grapple and what not and EVERY fight is the same fight...so...they don't use many good and/or innovative techniques that will work if it were to be used by a smaller person against a larger person in a real life or death situation. The third point I want to make is this...I'm originally a JKD guy...I will ALWAYS be a JKD guy. I'm not underestimating people who don't do aikido...I'm telling you that fighting incompletely and saying that it's effective is a lie! Aikido is also an incomplete style...however...for some reason...aikido is the best incomplete style I've ever seen and practiced! This is what ticks me off about the people on this thread in particular...they'll go around saying that aikido is good for self defense and what not and how it's good for smaller people against bigger people but...they don't think that it's effective against guys who "shoot" at your legs even though aikido has many techniques against that (moving out the way is one!)!!! Why practice a fighting style if you don't believe in it's effectiveness? Also...it's not so much the style that's ineffective...it's how the person applies their style to a situation...so...if you think that aikido is ineffective against other people from other styles...then you're not applying correctly and you flat out suck! Go do yoga or something else...don't bash your own style and discourage other people from doing it!
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Old 05-27-2005, 02:33 PM   #265
Pankration90
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
What do you think would happen if...a smaller guy (in PRESENT DAY UFC fighting) went up against a bigger guy? The smaller guy would lose 'cause he would be using his strength and what not because they're simply not complete fighters hence they will use techniques that are going to make them lose!
It depends on the experience of the fighters. If Genki Sudo (a skilled grappler who isn't that big) went up against a huge guy who didn't have the same amount of experience I would put my money on Genki Sudo.

Quote:
owever...from what I've seen in a lot of present day UFC and MMA matches are that they just want to wrestle and grapple and what not and EVERY fight is the same fight...so...they don't use many good and/or innovative techniques that will work if it were to be used by a smaller person against a larger person in a real life or death situation.
Being a small person myself, if I were in a true life or death situation against a single opponent and I couldn't run away, I wouldn't stand there and try to strike with them. Bigger guys hit harder. I would try to wrap the opponent up in a clinch, break his balance, and take him down where I can use gravity, leverage, and the fact that he is now pinned to the ground to my advantage.

Quote:
I'm telling you that fighting incompletely and saying that it's effective is a lie! Aikido is also an incomplete style...however...for some reason...aikido is the best incomplete style I've ever seen and practiced! This is what ticks me off about the people on this thread in particular...they'll go around saying that aikido is good for self defense and what not and how it's good for smaller people against bigger people but...they don't think that it's effective against guys who "shoot" at your legs even though aikido has many techniques against that (moving out the way is one!)!!!
This comment also leaves me to believe that you don't have much experience with wrestling or MMA. It's 'incomplete'? Yeah if you want to fight on the street, but if you want to compete than proper MMA training has everything you need. I've never met a guy who wanted to train in MMA just for self defense who didn't realize that it doesn't prepare you to defend against weapons, multiple attackers, de-escalating fights, etc.

You also said that simply moving out of the way is a good way to defend against a double leg... it's not. A proper double leg is not a tackle that is done from five feet away. It's done from the clinch, after distracting the opponent and setting it up. You move in an L (level change down, move forward), not in a diagonal line towards the opponent. When someone shoots in, they take a penetration step between your legs. How can you move to the side or backwards with a leg between yours and two arms wrapped around your legs?

Another thing I think I should bring up is that you've only been doing aikido for a few months. Even if you have beat all these fighters from other styles, that was before you trained in aikido and has nothing to do with your aikido training. How do you know how well aikido works against trained mixed martial artists when you have very little experience in aikido and you've never fought a mixed martial artist?

I think it's funny that you're willing to fight a MMA guy, but not a JKD guy. JKD takes elements from different styles, just like MMA does. A lot of jkd guys use boxing and muay thai strikes, wrestling takedowns and clinching, and groundfighting from bjj or some other style. The only difference is the intent that they train with...

Do you want me to post your challenge on a few other forums for you?
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Old 05-27-2005, 08:33 PM   #266
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
think it's funny that you're willing to fight a MMA guy, but not a JKD guy. JKD takes elements from different styles, just like MMA does. A lot of jkd jguys use boxing and muay thai strikes, wrestling takedowns and clinching, and groundfighting from bjj or some other style. The only difference is the intent that they train with...
No...JKD came WAAAAY before this MMA wannabe stuff. Like I always tell people...MMA or shootfighting or Pancrase or Luta Livre or w/e you wanna call it is an incomplete wannabe version of JKD! Those styles I just mentioned are not complete...they only consist of 3 ranges of combat and they totally skip one. They go from striking to grappling rather than striking, trapping and grappling. Striking consists of two different ranges which are kicking and punching ranges. Modern MMA fighting totally ignore these facts and go around saying that they're complete fighting systems! Thus...it is A LOT easier for me to defeat an MMA guy over a JKD guy. Yes...PLEASE post my challenge to other forums if you may.
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Old 05-27-2005, 09:53 PM   #267
Aristeia
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I've done the honors on RMA. Alan how old were you when you started training?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-27-2005, 10:30 PM   #268
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I'm 18 now...I started martial arts training when I was 6. However, I started aikido in March I believe...I don't even remember, LOL!
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Old 05-28-2005, 11:10 PM   #269
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
No...JKD came WAAAAY before this MMA wannabe stuff.
When they came about has nothing to do with this discussion. I never said MMA came first.

Quote:
They go from striking to grappling rather than striking, trapping and grappling. Striking consists of two different ranges which are kicking and punching ranges. Modern MMA fighting totally ignore these facts and go around saying that they're complete fighting systems! Thus...it is A LOT easier for me to defeat an MMA guy over a JKD guy.
What is the purpose of considering "Trapping" it's own range? When you're close enough to trap, you're also close enough to punch. Punching and trapping can't be separated because of how far apart you are, it's the same distance. During a fight you'll be going back and forth between the so-called "kicking" and "punching" ranges so fast that the difference is also irrelevent. Trapping also isn't that effective when the opponent doesn't hold their arms out in front of them, waiting for bridge contact.

I'll post the challenge on a couple forums, then.
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Old 05-29-2005, 12:30 PM   #270
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
What is the purpose of considering "Trapping" it's own range?
JKD looks at fighting from a scientific view rather than an artistic or religious view like in other martial arts and philosophies. That's why the techniques are broken down into "ranges" to better understand the science of fighting. Bruce Lee obviously knew that in actual combat it's ALL blended in all at one time...which is good...however to better understand the essence of fighting you have to break it down scientifically...therefore Jeet Kune Do has ranges.

Quote:
Trapping also isn't that effective when the opponent doesn't hold their arms out in front of them, waiting for bridge contact.
Of course it does! They don't have to wait for bridge contact and the techniques don't have to be fancy in any way if that's what you're trying to refer to. You can simply trap one arm and go from there to a takedown technique or something...believe me...it does work!
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Old 05-29-2005, 02:48 PM   #271
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
JKD looks at fighting from a scientific view rather than an artistic or religious view like in other martial arts and philosophies. That's why the techniques are broken down into "ranges" to better understand the science of fighting. Bruce Lee obviously knew that in actual combat it's ALL blended in all at one time...which is good...however to better understand the essence of fighting you have to break it down scientifically...therefore Jeet Kune Do has ranges.
The only point of breaking down a fight into "ranges" is for training. When training, you can't isolate "trapping" without turning it into a drill like chi sao. If you're sparring in "trapping" range, you're also sparring in "punching rnage". You can't separate the two, it's the same distance. Why not have a "blocking range" as well?

Most trapping goes out the window when the opponent keeps their guard by their face and punches like a boxer (pulling their hand back to their face immediately after the punch).
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Old 05-29-2005, 03:12 PM   #272
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

I find the same thing to be true for many aikido techniques. Many of them are negated or "go out the window" as soon as the opponent adopts a guarded posture and will not violate his center. Usually it goes from this point to the clinch, to the ground fairly rapidly. Not always, but quite often.

However, as soon as you place a weapon into the equation either actual, or percieved/possible, many of these same techniques will start working again.
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:15 PM   #273
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I find the same thing to be true for many aikido techniques. Many of them are negated or "go out the window" as soon as the opponent adopts a guarded posture and will not violate his center. Usually it goes from this point to the clinch, to the ground fairly rapidly. Not always, but quite often.
Seems to me, that all but very few techniques should go out the window in any situation...for example, if someone pushes, you wouldn't use an entering technique right off (that's practically cutting your arsenal in half).

I thought that was the point of the physical part of Aikido...to have the right technique for the occasion, not to fit a round peg in a square hole.

As for the example, seems to me (IMveryHO), a side-strike to the back of the head would force them to do something--once they move, theoretically , they should be yours.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 05-29-2005 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 05-29-2005, 04:35 PM   #274
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
I thought that was the point of the physical part of Aikido...to have the right technique for the occasion, not to fit a round peg in a square hole.
Agreed, I think this is where some have issues with aikido. It simply doesn't necessarily have the right technique for all occasions, especially when a fight goes to the ground, or from the clinch.

You do need to be very careful not to judge aikido from the "game" aspect of MMA since there are many effective techniques that would be negated outside of the NHB "rules".

It is important to keep everything in proper perspective.

Interesting you mention strikes to back of head. They are illegal in most NHB rules. I find that many good fighters will "turtle" or turn there back to you as a strategy. Not good in a "real fight" (whatever that is).
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Old 05-29-2005, 06:27 PM   #275
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Re: NHB Fighting and Aikido

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
No...JKD came WAAAAY before this MMA wannabe stuff. Like I always tell people...MMA or shootfighting or Pancrase or Luta Livre or w/e you wanna call it is an incomplete wannabe version of JKD! Those styles I just mentioned are not complete...they only consist of 3 ranges of combat and they totally skip one. They go from striking to grappling rather than striking, trapping and grappling. Striking consists of two different ranges which are kicking and punching ranges. Modern MMA fighting totally ignore these facts and go around saying that they're complete fighting systems! Thus...it is A LOT easier for me to defeat an MMA guy over a JKD guy. Yes...PLEASE post my challenge to other forums if you may.
i think if you want to test yourself in buffalo you should look up kevin rosier .after you see him i would be interested to here what you say
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