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Old 01-05-2007, 11:00 AM   #51
Michael McCaslin
Dojo: aikijujitsu, unaffiliated
Location: New Orleans
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35
United_States
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Re: High kicking

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Agreed Justin, clearly you speak from expirence. Professionals like bouncers and cops never grapple; too dangerous on the street. Grappling is simply choosing to be on the bottom...
Uhhh.... nope.

You have to be careful using "professionals" and "never" in the same sentence, particularly in a public forum where some of them hang out (for the record, I'm not one of them).

I'm pretty sure it's been pointed out here before, but if it hasn't now is as good a time as any. "Professionals" like cops and bouncers have fewer options at their disposal in a confrontation than a "civilian" does. If a citizen's safety is threatened, he is (in most states) justified in taking any reasonable action to defend himself. He can just kick the aggressor in the groin and run.

Cops and bouncers, on the other hand, have rules of engagement and force escalation they must follow. They also don't have the option of the "Reebok defense." They are often forced to grab and control people (which meets the definition of grappling IMHO) who a person not acting in a professional capacity might just decide to bash over the head and be done with it.

In general, it is much harder for the pros to engage a threat in a proactive manner, because liability concerns typically drive them to escalate force in a reactive mode, and limit their options when they do. The general populace is not subject to these limitations.

This, IMHO, is one reason you see the professionals gravitating towards grappling training against resistive opponents over the last several years. It's much less risky from a liability standpoint (and arguably more effective) than hitting someone with a club (especially when you are constrained as to where, how hard, and how often you can do it), and you can't tase everyone.

Us regular folks are allowed to kill monsters. Cops usually have to figure out a way to get a leash on them. It's a tough job.
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:23 AM   #52
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
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Re: High kicking

Nice post Michael.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-05-2007, 03:20 PM   #53
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
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Re: High kicking

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Grappling is simply choosing to be on the bottom...
Of course not. But the bulk of its teachings certainly are about getting tangled up with somebody. Check out any BJJ cirriculum and see how many kicks and punches they do.

And with multiple opponents, unlike with single opponents, it doesn't have a prayer.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:10 PM   #54
hkronin
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
In my experience, pretty much all fights end up on the ground,
I have heard this phrase so often, but I disagree with it's connotations. If therre were some type of concrete data to prove what percentage of fights ended up on the ground, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it above 70%. I don't have a problem with the statement as much as what it implies.

What I disagree with is the logic, that {all fights end up on the ground, therefore it is best to train on the ground because that is where you will end up if you find yourself in a fight}

First of all, I do train in grappling and I love it, so this is not a stand up vs. grappling argument. I just think that the logic is flawed in the above statement.

I think a large number of fights go to the ground for the following reasons.

1) most fights start on the feet. Once on person begins to lose this battle, it is instinct to try a different plan, i.e. grab the guy.

2) Most people have little stand up fighting skill, most people are somewhat instintively afraid of getting hit, and grabbing an opponent is a natural reaction to having someone trying to strike you.

3) More people have wrestling/ football experienceup training...which involves grabbing and taking to the ground, than stand up/ fighting training.

Now in my opinion, being a trained martial artist, we shouldn't have to accept "going to the ground" as the likely end to any confrontation. Having said that I believe in being skilled on the ground which is why I train there as well, there's nothing worse that getting taken down, and having all of your years of training flushed down the toilet becuse you have no clue what to do down there. I just don't think any martial artist should accept going to the ground as the inevitable.

Last edited by hkronin : 01-05-2007 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 01-06-2007, 07:06 AM   #55
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
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Re: High kicking

Cady Goldfield wrote:

"In my experience, pretty much all fights end up on the ground, "

Are you talking about real self defense situations, or sport encounters?

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 01-06-2007, 08:13 AM   #56
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
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Re: High kicking

The ones I've seen in bars, behind football fields, and in the less pleasant parts of the city I had to walk through on my way home from work. Some have been at sporting events but involved the parents of children playing the sports.
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:16 PM   #57
Kenji_08
Dojo: Academy of Elite Martial Arts
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Re: High kicking

I agree that most fights end up on the ground. I am a 17 year old high school student. I have seen many fights and I have never seen a fight stay off the floor unless it was a one hit fight. This is why I train on the floor.

On the subject of high kicks. They are almost useless in street fights but they do make a good set up kick. However it is always there if you need it.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:58 PM   #58
mike.quinn@fsmail.net
Dojo: Oakengates
Location: Shropshire
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6
United Kingdom
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Re: High kicking

Hi Guys,
My first post so be gentle?. Are we talking high kicks from a sport or self defence situation?. Do not confuse the two ok. M.T I understand to be a sport, same as kickboxing etc. The older DO arts are based on tradition ie self defence and battlefield etc. First I would not kick anyone in the head except most extreme situation blah blah. Effective if you make contact but risky if you miss. Thats your choice. Take the consequences in a self defence situation. However, kicks would normally require a long range unless your rubber man or Bruce Lee. Most streetfights say after an argument start at talking distance say 2 /4 feet apart then rapid distance close down. You might not get the chance to kick. There are clues in traditional Karate where kicks are always low. Why?. Perhaps there is your answer unless you dismiss a whole style/art. There are no high kicks in any Kata ( a visual encyclopedia) of techniques. High kicks only became of use after intro of competition after the war. Hope this is of use. Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:29 PM   #59
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
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Re: High kicking

Yes, high kicks are the most recent addition and mainly were included for show and sport. My first MA was the "old" TKD, the type that Gen. Hong Hi Choi extracted from Funikoshi's interpretation of karate. Early TKD was essentiallly Shotokan karate-do. Kicks were never higher than the waist, and generally targeted the hip bone (to control and turn the opponent), knees, ankles and insteps (stomps). There was a lot of powerful punching.

As the Japanese occupation ended, Koreans were quick to separate themselves from Japanese influence and started to alter their TKD-karate into something more visibly Korean. That included de-emphasis of hand techniques (and for many dojangs, the loss of the sources of upper-body power was lost as well), and splicing the retained low kicks with some of the remnants (so the legend goes) of the old Korean taekyon kicking sport-art used as a royal court entertainment in the feudal period.

They also changed the way the former Japanese kicks (which were Okinawan kicks, which were Chinese kicks ) were chambered, to allow for a more mobile, on-the-move style of fighting. The high and spinning-high kicks (wheel kicks, jump spinning axe kicks...) were added here as well, mostly as a crowd pleaser for demonstrations.

By the late 1970s, TKD had divested itself entirely of karate. But it also sportified itself and many schools and systems of TKD had become more sport than MA.

I wrote earlier that very few people can use high and spinning kicks effectively against a good jujutsu guy/grappler, MMA fighter and basically any good MAist who has developed a keen eye for the timing and tactics of kickers. Kickers are among the (if not THE) most vulnerable of fighters, because picking one foot off the ground and commiting to its use places the fighter on only one leg.

It's risky, and not worth cultivating oneself as a one-trick pony in hopes that you can use those high kicks as your main source of fighting. Better to be very well versed in other things and save the high kick to finish off your opponent with a flourish when he is already dazed...
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