Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-09-2006, 01:34 PM   #26
JAMJTX
Dojo: Aikibudo Seishinkan
Location: FORT WAYNE, IN
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 106
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

I don't consider the ribs to be a high kick. "high" is when we start to get above solar plexus, but most people are talking about the head.

My first Tae Kwon Do teacher taught us to never kick higher than the level of our own nose. My my general rule now is not higher than your own solar plexus. This can still be considered high, because it is above the center. But it's not high to the point where you may have to lean back and stretch to reach. You can still keep weight forward driving into the kick.

It is easier to defend against a higher kick and you are more vulnerable in that position. But it's not impossible and it does depend a lot on who is doing the kicking and who is doing the defending. A skilled kicker verses someone who is not so skilled in kick defenses, the high kicker will win.

I had a Goju Ryu teacher who was once sparring with someone who believed that: 1) high kicks did not work 2) Goju Ryu stylists never did high kicks. He stopped believing both very shortly after Sensei knocked him down with head kick - probably before he hit the ground.

Jim Mc Coy
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2006, 01:48 PM   #27
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

I trained for many years at a TKD dojang in Boston where TV actor/comedian Joe Rogan was a student (it was before his big break in showbiz, but he was doing standup comedy work in the area clubs). He was one of the most talented kickers I've seen, including Koreans, and was one of the few TKD technicians whom I believe could drop even a gifted grappler once he was familiarized with jujutsu/grappling strategy. He had the speed, timing and "calculated intuition" to set up an opponent.

Some people just have natural ability, which when coupled with an aggressive nature and a keen strategic intelligence, could take almost any kind of art and make it workable. But most people can't "make it work" consistently and under a variety of conditions, and even Joe would meet his match in certain settings and conditions. Nobody's perfect.

Really, it comes down to what your handful of most effective, reliable and consistantly successful techniques are. If high kicks are one of them, that's great. But I suspect that the majority of people, except for those of the highest skill level, are going to rely on methods that minimize their exposure and moments of vulnerability, and which they can quickly pull off using only gross motor movements when under pressure rather than refined ones.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-09-2006 at 01:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2006, 02:29 PM   #28
clockworkmechanicalman
Location: urbanna, va
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

wow! lots of great posts. as a former TKD student i can say that without a doubt high kicks work, but it depends on the situation. one should set up the high kick with a low kick, like a boxer's 1-2 (jab-straight) combo. that being said high kicks take alot of streching to maintain. since i've quit TKD (which was some time ago) i've also quit streching (regularly). i can still throw the 3 basic kick (front, roundhouse, and side), and some variations like step-side, and spinning roundhouse kicks. but the lack of practice has really left most of my spinning back kicks below par. plus i can't kick above the sternum. i used to be able to kick apples off people's heads (like a TKD william tell), but not anymore. if i was in a situation that i couldn't get out of, high kicks would not be my priorty. i would snap kick to the man-berries or step side kick to the front (or side) of the knees. also i wouldn't kick higher than that because of the lack of balance involved. that being said muay thai using an arsenal of low kicks as well as the high kicks mentioned earlier. i do love to watch muay thai, but the thought of kicking with my shins brings back painful soccer memories. speaking of which why do we call football, soccer and rugby(well american rugby), football? they (american footballers)don't even use their feet...well not that much anyways.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2006, 04:01 PM   #29
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

anyone able to get the video of fabio branno to play?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 02:00 PM   #30
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
David Sim wrote:
I've always been told and believed this too, and can see why it should be true - a high kick is easier to see coming, sacrifices a lot of your own balance, runs the risk of being caught and messed around with, leaves you very open to some sort of counter and so on. If you want to kick high, join a chorus line.

However, I've recently started cross training in muay thai and there, going for a kick in the ribs seems to be considered a good idea.
I think that 'you can see it coming' can be said about a lot of techniques. Although, even if you can see it coming, it doesn't mean you can avoid it or avoid it unscathed.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 05:16 PM   #31
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

I pity the fool who throws a high kick at someone whose sense of perception is well trained, and thus perceives such kicks in slo-mo and can attack the kicker in the wink of an eye. The ultimate in martial training is to have that level of perception. It ain't Matrix, it's just having a neuro-muscular system that has been conditioned against increasing speed of attacks. Combine it with the experience-tempered ability to "read" the opponent before he even fires a kick, and high kicks are a suicide choice. Been there, dunnat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 09:43 PM   #32
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

I think a drill that could be fun is to have A and B square off. Have B throw a spinning (important) kick somewhere at A. A can see a spinning kick coming, so have A try and playfully kick-push B in the butt midway through the spin.

If A cannot do this the majority of the time, then A cannot do something similar when a non-spinning kick is thrown.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 10:23 PM   #33
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

We actually used to do that as part of our drills, "back in the day" when I was training in TKD. It was fun, but in retrospect, I'd rather have moved in and taken the partner down in a pin and choke.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 11:40 AM   #34
Tharis
Dojo: Chicago Aikikai
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Stick to low kicks, or even better, learn to kick like a sumo guy.
What does this mean? How do sumo guys kick?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 01:23 PM   #35
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

I'm no expert there, Thomas, and was just speaking from admiration having seen the power they generate while kicking low (into the thigh/quads, calf, inside of knee or ankle), and not exposing themselves to counters. They aren't using the usual hip torque; their whole body is behind it. I recently saw a video (someone posted a link on E-Budo or here) on YouTube of Aunkai guys doing it, and it involves internal forces rather than the familiar karate/TKD type externals.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 11:44 AM   #36
hkronin
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

If you want to see the effectiveness of high kicks, just search for some highlight reels of Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic. You can find many on You Tube. Mirko has knocked out more opponents with a kick to the head, than any other method, and we are talking about heavy weight mixed martial arts professionals. The caliber of opponents he has defeated with these kicks is just as impressive as the kicks themselves.

Of course this is one man, with an exceptional talent, but it should put to rest any controversy to the effectiveness of the strike. Like many previous posters have mentioned, it's all in how well you can deliver the strike. The problem for many people who train this type of strike, is that they train for Karate, Taekwondo tournaments where their goal is to reach the head, but no necessarily impact with power. The latter is a much different skill.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 01:56 PM   #37
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Paul,
Any strike to the noggin with a blunt instrument, arriving at the peak of acceleration, is gonna leave a mark. I just question whether the foot is the best of those blunt instruments with which to deliver that strike, when there are equally effective ways that are easier and leave one less vulnerable to countering.

And I note this after a quarter of a century of karate and TKD study. Again, high kicks (for anything but sport competition) are for the exceptional, but not the average or typical practitioner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 04:48 PM   #38
hkronin
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Paul,
Any strike to the noggin with a blunt instrument, arriving at the peak of acceleration, is gonna leave a mark. I just question whether the foot is the best of those blunt instruments with which to deliver that strike, when there are equally effective ways that are easier and leave one less vulnerable to countering.

And I note this after a quarter of a century of karate and TKD study. Again, high kicks (for anything but sport competition) are for the exceptional, but not the average or typical practitioner.
Cady,

Thanks for the reply to my comment. I brought up the example of Mirko Filipovic because that was an example of someone using a high kick successfully against expert BJJ fighters, olympic wrestlers, k-1 fighters, judo gold medalists, muy thai fighters...etc.

Keep in mind that he is known for these high kicks, everyone he fights is expecting him to use the left high kick, his opponents are experts in grappling and taking down their opponents, and yet he still pulls it off. Obviously, not everyone will be as good as Mirko, but then again, how likely is it that anyone of us will face olympic level wrestlers on the street. It's just an example that it can and has been used succesfully against opponents who would be best suited to counter it and take down their opponent. (which is considered the biggest risk of throwing a high kick.)

As far as there being "equally effective" and "easier" ways of striking or dealing with an opponent, I would say that it all depends on the context. I think any technique would be effective under the right set of circumstances, yet a poor choice in other circumstances. A high kick is just one more tool in your toolbox to use if need be. A pefect example is Ray Mercer (professional heavyweight boxer) going into K-1 to fight Remy Bonjawski (kick boxer). Why box a boxer when you can kick him in the head. By the way, the fight was over in about 10 seconds from a high kick to Mercer's head. In that situation, that was a good tool to use.

I agree that it is a difficult skill to excel at and be able to pull off in a fight, or self defense situation, but so is everything I've learned in Aikido and every other martial art I've trained in. It's just the nature of the beast. That's martial arts. If you want an easier more reliable weapon, but a gun. Training to do something difficult is what makes it fun!

For what it's worth, I used to share the same opinion as you that it was just not a practical technique. Then I saw people use it succesfully over and over again, and I realized it was the incorrect application of the technique by many people that was faulty, not the concept of the technique itself.

That's just my humble opinion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2007, 04:56 PM   #39
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Hey, I love kicking (and punching, too) -- I've been training in other arts for years now, but once a kicker (and puncher)... well, it's hard to get it out of your system.

As long as you practice with other kickers, then sure those high kicks have a good chance of serving you. But I gotta tell you -- the guys I train with now will take you apart if you try it (and so will I, know that I've learned some of their skills). In summary: Don't try high kicks with highly trained grapplers!

I sure do love watching first-rate high kickers, though. It's a fine show of athleticism and coordination.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-02-2007 at 04:58 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2007, 02:33 AM   #40
hkronin
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Pc4igX85s
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2007, 10:06 PM   #41
DaveS
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 91
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
As long as you practice with other kickers, then sure those high kicks have a good chance of serving you. But I gotta tell you -- the guys I train with now will take you apart if you try it (and so will I, know that I've learned some of their skills). In summary: Don't try high kicks with highly trained grapplers!
One thing that a lot of people seem to have been saying is that you need to set up a high kick and / or wait for a suitable opening. Is it that highly trained grapplers have particularly better resources against a high kick[1] or just that they don't obligingly stand there and box with you until that opening arrives? So rather than carefully waiting for an oppurtunity you tend to either end up grappling on the floor or getting impatient and going for a high kick when the opening isn't there....

I'm suggesting this based on reading what other people have said and 'thinking about it' rather than from experience of trying it,[2] but afaict once someone's sharp enough / well trained enough to see the high kick coming and go for an effective counter, aren't they going to pretty much own you whether they're a grappler or not?

[1] and I can see alot of things I wouldn't want to happen to me while high kicking a grappler, but then I wouldn't want a highly trained muay thai fighter to catch my leg and then elbow me in the side of the head,either.
[2] the latter seeming to be a rather better way of arriving at the truth on these sorts of issues....
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #42
hkronin
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
David Sim wrote:
One thing that a lot of people seem to have been saying is that you need to set up a high kick and / or wait for a suitable opening. Is it that highly trained grapplers have particularly better resources against a high kick[1] or just that they don't obligingly stand there and box with you until that opening arrives? So rather than carefully waiting for an oppurtunity you tend to either end up grappling on the floor or getting impatient and going for a high kick when the opening isn't there....

I'm suggesting this based on reading what other people have said and 'thinking about it' rather than from experience of trying it,[2] but afaict once someone's sharp enough / well trained enough to see the high kick coming and go for an effective counter, aren't they going to pretty much own you whether they're a grappler or not?

[1] and I can see alot of things I wouldn't want to happen to me while high kicking a grappler, but then I wouldn't want a highly trained muay thai fighter to catch my leg and then elbow me in the side of the head,either.
[2] the latter seeming to be a rather better way of arriving at the truth on these sorts of issues....
Hi David. Good analysis there.

One thing about good high kickers like the link I posted above is that they are also good leg and body kickers. With good kickers, the kicks all look the same at the onset. After a few leg or body kicks, you can be a little leary of taking another, and then that's when one comes to the head. It looks like another leg kick, but goes to the head before you realize it. Logic would tell you that the sheer distance it has to travel would tip you off, but they can be very difficult to see, and very difficult to predict where they land, especially if you are also focused on their hands and other possible weapons. It happens very fast.

There is also a preconception, that anyone who is a good grappler can take a striker down at will. For most opponents this is in fact the case, but I have seen many strikers develop excellent sprawling skills, that make it very difficult, almost impossible to take down. Look at Chuck Liddel, Mirko Filipovic, George StPierre.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 03:04 PM   #43
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

As was discussed earlier, there are always exceptions, and exceptional people. But they are not the norm.

Keep in mind that the kicks we practice in the p/k arts today -- wheel kicks, spinning back kicks, all of the jumping high kicks -- are contemporary in making. They were not a part of classical self-defense or combat arts, even though they might have been kept as an "artsy" extra in some of the old Chinese arts that had moved into the realm of performance or spiritual art and away from street "practical" combat. TKD, "Home of the High Kicks" is a modern art that was cobbled together from Shotokan karate and (apocryphal) vestiges of Korean leg-fighting and kicking systems that were alleged to have been practiced as sport, and for entertainment in the royal court -- not the battle field or street.

In short, these kicks are meant to be performed against other kickers, and the fighting strategies that most people practice in their schools are designed with other kickers in mind. That's how most people spart, in other words. Even most "self-defense" routines seldom start with a high, spinning or flying kick; they are mainly a "finishing-off" technique after the "bad guy" has been incapacitated with strikes, punches or other less vulnerable actions.

Unless you train with grapplers who, in the skills of their arts, are equal or superior to your skill in your kicking art, you will not learn how to make high kicks work effectively against a good or superior grappler.

That was my "beef" after training in TKD and karate, as well as "external" Chinese arts, for many years; we trained only against our own system and its stylized methods. To obtain an understanding of the limitations of this type of training, I ultimately had to leave and take up grappling/jujutsu and MMA. The experience clarified, nearly immediately, both the weaknesses and potential strengths of high kicks are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 03:20 PM   #44
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: High kicking

Hey Cady, you know that Joe Rogan is supposedly a decent BJJ/MMA guy under Eddie Bravo these days as well as having his day job? Apparently he is a very well rounded martial artist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 03:27 PM   #45
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Kevin,
Joe -- like a lot of serious martial artists -- realized the limitations of a strictly p/k curriculum. I recall reading a year or two ago that he was pursuing grappling and MMA, and thought "well, I might have known." It doesn't surprise me that he is "decent" at it. He is gifted athletically and spatially, and also is very focused and disciplined. I always liked watching him train at the dojang, and even got some good tips from him that I have kept with me over many years.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 09:28 PM   #46
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Paul Wright wrote:
Logic would tell you that the sheer distance it has to travel would tip you off, but they can be very difficult to see, and very difficult to predict where they land, especially if you are also focused on their hands and other possible weapons. It happens very fast.
Not to mention, legs being powered by the body's most powerful muscles, and gaining a lot of momentum, the kicks tend to crash through defences, basically slamming ones own hands into their body.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 09:31 PM   #47
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
TKD, "Home of the High Kicks" is a modern art that was cobbled together from Shotokan karate and (apocryphal) vestiges of Korean leg-fighting and kicking systems that were alleged to have been practiced as sport, and for entertainment in the royal court -- not the battle field or street.

In short, these kicks are meant to be performed against other kickers, and the fighting strategies that most people practice in their schools are designed with other kickers in mind. That's how most people spart, in other words.
I'm wondering what the use of grappling is in the "street"? It seems to be a superior method for getting tangled up with one opponent while the others stomp on you.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 10:23 PM   #48
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 888
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Justin, I use "grappling" and "jujutsu" interchangeably, though some people think "wrestling" when they say grappling. Jujutsu skills can help you pin, lock up or break your opponent's joints, knock him out, etc. In my experience, pretty much all fights end up on the ground, and that's where it helps to know how to "think OFF your feet."

I agree with you about the down side. Even a grappler is vulnerable on the ground. Worst fights I've witnessed were two guys rolling on the ground, and a bunch of one guy's buddies start attacking him with kicks to the head, groin, ribs while he's on top of their friend.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-04-2007 at 10:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 11:27 PM   #49
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Re: High kicking

Agreed Justin, clearly you speak from expirence. Professionals like bouncers and cops never grapple; too dangerous on the street. Grappling is simply choosing to be on the bottom...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 09:35 AM   #50
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: High kicking

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Kevin,
Joe -- like a lot of serious martial artists -- realized the limitations of a strictly p/k curriculum. I recall reading a year or two ago that he was pursuing grappling and MMA, and thought "well, I might have known." It doesn't surprise me that he is "decent" at it. He is gifted athletically and spatially, and also is very focused and disciplined. I always liked watching him train at the dojang, and even got some good tips from him that I have kept with me over many years.
He's not just decent, he's a brown belt. Thats a huge accomplishment in bjj.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"super" high ranking yudansha? David Racho General 50 07-10-2007 09:26 AM
Taking the high road Casey Martinson General 50 01-23-2005 07:42 PM
Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do) Jeremy Gelman Techniques 44 10-13-2004 11:39 PM
high repititions in training Bruce Baker Training 5 10-09-2002 01:37 PM
Kick Defenses... Jermaine Alley Training 16 06-23-2002 09:32 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:33 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate