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Old 12-13-2006, 03:06 PM   #51
Princess Rose
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

[quote=Jo Adell] In my experience there is that attractiveness in most people who work at developing themselves,and is not necessarily sexual or romantic but sometimes we have trouble identifying what we found attractive about that person.

Ok first of all, I was totally attracted to this thread because I thought it was about crushing pain and all that lol

But I think there is a huge deal to be said for having a crush on Aikido not on people. I personally have a crush on Ken Nisson Sensei (I believe he is 70 years old). Obviously, it is not a real crush, but more of an admiration for this person and what he teaches. There is a 40 year old guy in my home dojo who has the same crush on Nisson Sensei.

That being said, your crush may not have anything to do with Aikido. Actually the reverse happened to me. About 2 or so years ago a new student about my age had a crush on me (I only know because he told me). We actually dated for a year and broke up last spring. As hard as I tried to be friends with him and treat him just like everybody else there was something unavoidably different. However, that's just me. This experience taught me that I have to look outside the dojo for my relationships (or lack there of). On the other hand, dating within the dojo is the thing to do for some people. I know a few couples in my home dojo who use Aikido as a great activity to participate in together. That is just something you have to discover for yourself. Weather dating another Aikidoka is what you want, or if it just makes training awkward.

Either way good luck
 
Old 12-13-2006, 03:18 PM   #52
Princess Rose
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
As a father who's daughter trains: I dislike watching her fall all over herself to train with "that cute guy". (Okay, she's fifteen and I know she'll get over this stage, but I'm still inclined to toss the potential boyfriend around just a little more roughly than I ought to. )
Ok one more thing. The older men in my dojo all seem to think they are my father so every boy who was potentially interested in me or vice versa pretty much got the snot kicked out of him. It was really annoying.
 
Old 12-13-2006, 06:56 PM   #53
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

It seems to me that many people here must be pretty cynical about love or looking for something superficial in a relationship. The possibility of some awkwardness at the dojo for a few hours per week at some indefinite future time, not having quite as much fun with your favorite uke if things don't work out... these sound like exceedingly weak disincentives to doing something that one hopes will be truly worthwhile. I wouldn't even bother pursuing a relationship with someone if piddly concerns like that were enough to thwart me.

Personally, about the only things I ever truly regretted in life were things that I did or did not do in relation to someone I loved. I doubt anyone ever bemoaned the fact that they failed to follow an arbitrary personal dating rule on their death bed, but love lost or chances not taken are a common theme in this situation.

My advice to anyone with this type of "problem" is to seize the moment. Life is short and people with whom you can genuinely connect and become intimate are rare. Anything worthwhile involves taking risks, and the kind of risks being discussed so somberly here sound like utter trifles to me, compared to the potential rewards. Even more important is the bigger picture: if you allow yourself to be cowed by this kind of minor risk, you are in for a very staid, boring life.
 
Old 12-13-2006, 07:31 PM   #54
mriehle
 
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Talking Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Rosemary Wulf wrote:
...every boy who was potentially interested in me or vice versa pretty much got the snot kicked out of him. It was really annoying.
So my daughter tells me.

Frequently.

(I'm actually not as bad as all that. I managed to not slam the kid who was taking her to the formal the next night during jiyu waza on Friday. I was downright nice. )

 
Old 12-13-2006, 11:39 PM   #55
Princess Rose
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
(I'm actually not as bad as all that. I managed to not slam the kid who was taking her to the formal the next night during jiyu waza on Friday. I was downright nice. )
Funny

I actually like the older guys looking out for me. I know if I ever needed them they'd be there to help me in a heartbeat. To be honest they are really the truest forms of friends even more so than people my age. I think that is one of the best parts about Aikido. Even if you don't want to date the other Aikidoka (and it would be pretty hard for me since NO ONE is my age) you do form the greatest friendship relationships ever. I'm 19 and I have many people over the age of 40 who I consider to be my best friends. And really I spend more time on the mat with those people than I do off the mat "hanging out" (yeah I'm an Aiki nerd). Off topic a little
 
Old 12-15-2006, 12:23 PM   #56
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I felt compelled to write on this thread because a) I felt that the degree of risk isn't being very acknowledged (although I did see various people posting, "I've done it. It was messy...") and b) the reason for and potential consequences of the risk aren't being discussed. However I will say I am thinking more specifically of cases involving new students and dojo members who have been around long enough to feel they are part of the dojo, maybe a year or more.

Probably everyone considers themselves to be rational and capable of objectivity. The thing is, when we slip into irrationality or subjectivity, *we don't notice*. When a new person joins the dojo, they face the job of assimilating all of the implicit, unsaid aspects of the individual dojo culture as well as all of the explicit aspects. For new people the impact of an encouraging word or gentle hand is *greater* than it is for someone who has settled down. This may sound condescending, but a new person may not have the most accurate picture of how much he/she is feeling insecure and in what ways he/she is responding to reinforcements, good and bad, positive and negative. (I am not saying that anybody develops perfect self-insight or that developed people live a risk-free existence.) If a dojo member sees a starry-eyed beginner and feels good or proud of him/herself, that is natural *but* the person with more experience, by virtue of having settled in more, has the onus of noticing that that starry-eyed-ness may be specific to the stage that one or both parties are currently in, and that the new person is the more vulnerable one, the one with less power. To say that the new person is his/her own person and that everything is equal is to ignore some significant details.

As for potential consequences, how will they pratice together if they're in a relationship? What happens if they break up? What happens when one has an unpleasant experience with another dojo member? Do they care if others around them are affected. including "feeling icky"? At times that we have our wits about us we may be able to say we'll to whatever is rational, mature, etc. but when we are in the midst of something the we have not foreseen nor prepared for (i.e. you can foresee a storm but whether you're properly prepared is different), it's a different story.
 
Old 12-15-2006, 04:09 PM   #57
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Sorry Daniel, but those risks and consequences sound like exactly the kind of bupkus I was talking about. We aren't talking about getting killed or maimed, going to prison, or ending up homeless and destitute here. Weighing the potential rewards of a good relationship versus the vague possibility of "feeling icky", a few people having "unpleasant experiences" or whatnot is a no-brainer. These consequences are trivial even in comparison to the standard emotional risks most of us take when engaging in any relationship that could possibly fail at some point. If you are unwilling to undertake risks this small, you aren't ready for any relationship, no matter where you met the person.

It might be different if we are talking about 'dating' in the sense of being a player-type just looking for a few cheap shags with no emotional involvement. Then I'd be inclined to advise such a person not to play this sort of dating game in the dojo. To me this simply falls into the category of obnoxious behavior.

I also don't buy that stuff about the dire pitfalls of "unequal power" in relationships. I think this line of thinking is a bunch of nonsense cooked up by prissy, anti-sex PC types. The power is always unequal in relationships, sometimes more than others. For some people the inequality of station or power between them and the other is exactly what they like, on both sides. Heck, some people like to be spanked, peed upon... just a couple PG13 examples. Humans are a passionate, messy lot whose tastes range so widely that the whole idea of trying to make them follow narrow, do-gooder rules, especially when it comes to sex and love, is just silly.
 
Old 12-15-2006, 09:10 PM   #58
Princess Rose
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Ok my thoughts should probably be ignored because I still think boys have cooties, however, I just wanted to say I really agree with Dan. Small welcoming gestures are really taken to heart more by beginners. People need to really look within themselves to discover weather they are attracted to the person or just the person on the mat. Something to add is that when dojo relationships end, it sometimes puts the lower ranking person in a compromising position. Even though we practice Aikido and should try to get along and love everyone no matter if they hurt you yata yata yata, the fact is that we are human and sometimes you just can't stand to see each other. In that instance the lower ranking person may feel as if they should quit Aikido or find another school. They may even feel ostracized and think that everyone else is on the higher ranking person's "side" simply because he/she has been in the dojo longer and cemented close relationships. This is not to say that relationships can NEVER end well, just that SOMETIMES this can happen. And I don't think anybody is saying definitely don't go for it, just be careful and be aware of the bad things that COULD happen. That is true of all relationships.
 
Old 12-18-2006, 12:44 AM   #59
Lucy Smith
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

i cant believe i finally made it to the page!! it wasnt working for ages!!
well i too have a crush lol, but the guy in question is in the adults class, so LUCKILY i havent trained with him much... coz i just cant... lol
i woluld say wait... i mean it'd be very embarrasing if you break up to continue to train together..
 
Old 12-18-2006, 08:02 AM   #60
deepsoup
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Lucy Smith wrote:
i mean it'd be very embarrasing if you break up to continue to train together..
A bit embarrassing, certainly, but these things pass. Have you read Kevin Willbanks' post above?

Sometimes its worth sticking your neck out a little bit, as I can prove to you in only 4 words: "Chuck and Emily Gordon".
 
Old 12-18-2006, 08:43 AM   #61
Mike Grant
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

This (and the thread about 'people I don't want to learn from') is typical of what happens when you make it too easy for women to start training.

And, as an aside, also provides a good indication of why putting women in front line combat units also doesn't work.

For a third stab at political correctness, something that's almost as pathetc is couples who always train together.

Just get over it and get on with your training. Sort out your personal issues off the mat and away from the dojo. End of story.

Last edited by Mike Grant : 12-18-2006 at 08:48 AM.
 
Old 12-18-2006, 09:36 AM   #62
Qatana
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Gee Mike, please tell us more.

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 12-18-2006, 10:08 AM   #63
mriehle
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

See, I just think we're all over-thinking it.

The points we all appear to agree on (I think):
  • Relationships in the dojo can be complicated, but aren't always.
  • When a dojo relationship doesn't work out, it's awkward.
  • Dojo relationships which do work out can be very worthwhile.
  • A crush doesn't guarantee a relationship.

Where there seems to be some disagreement is on how big the risks actually are, what "awkward" actually means if things go badly.

Here's the thing: it's a risk and like all other risks evaluating it takes a bit of prescience. In other words: you have to decide for yourself. There is no real analyzing of the situation, there is only looking at other such situations and then making the decision based on - ultimately - your gut feel for the situation.

By definition it's an emotional decision. Your emotions - tempered by reason - must guide you.

Too much thinking will probably only make things worse.

 
Old 12-18-2006, 10:19 AM   #64
Mike Grant
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Gee Mike, please tell us more.
I'm told that www.handbag.com is an excellent resource if this kind of thing really bothers you.
 
Old 12-18-2006, 02:34 PM   #65
mriehle
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Hey, Mike, maybe you could tone it down a bit?

 
Old 12-18-2006, 05:29 PM   #66
Hanna B
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Do we have a troll in here?
 
Old 12-19-2006, 01:33 AM   #67
Mike Grant
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Do we have a troll in here?
Michael always struck me as a serious poster but I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

Am I the only person on this thread who thinks he's studying a martial art and not joining a social club/dating agency?

Personal problems like this have no place in the dojo.
 
Old 12-19-2006, 12:15 PM   #68
mriehle
 
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Grr! Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Mike Grant wrote:
Michael always struck me as a serious poster but I guess you're entitled to your opinion.
Uh, okay, thanks, I guess.

Quote:
Mike Grant wrote:
Am I the only person on this thread who thinks he's studying a martial art and not joining a social club/dating agency?
Right. Okay.

First of all, just because what we are doing is training in a martial art does not mean there will be no social issues. Nor does it mean that the social issues are unimportant. The original poster is having a social issue and needs (or needed) help. Her original issue brings up all kinds of other related issues.

So discussing these is a problem? Why?

The thing is, these can have a very real impact on your training. You can't simply ignore them and hope they'll go away. Correctly dealing with them - even if that means putting them aside, which is not the same as ignoring them - is important to making sure you are getting the training you come to the dojo for.

But, more importantly, these are important issues to some people. Making light (or even making fun) of them is really inappropriate. I've certainly been guilty of being flippant at times, but I make a point of apologizing when I realize I've done so.

The "handbag.com" comment was, I think, a little over the top. I've been on the mat with Jo Adell and I have enormous respect for her. What's more, I know her teacher and I know him to be a very sincere and accomplished Aikidoka.

Quote:
Mike Grant wrote:
Personal problems like this have no place in the dojo.
There are a lot of places where personal problems have no place but they intrude in any case. Simply dismissing them as unimportant is never the answer. Someone who finds themselves in such a situation needs to deal with it in a constructive and appropriate manner.

Someone who has little or no experience with such a situation may need or at least want help with required decisions. I feel like Aikiweb - especially the anonymous forums - should be a place where they can ask for that help without fear of being ridiculed or belittled.

 
Old 12-19-2006, 12:39 PM   #69
aikidjoe
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I don't know if this has been mentioned in previous posts, but Ellis Amdur's book Dueling With O Sensei discusses relationships in the dojo a little. And it's a very interesting read with rich stories to boot.
 
Old 12-19-2006, 06:58 PM   #70
Qatana
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Thank you Michael, that was Much better than I could have done! And thank you for complimenting my Sensei!

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 12-20-2006, 01:33 AM   #71
Mike Grant
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote:
Uh, okay, thanks, I guess.



Right. Okay.

First of all, just because what we are doing is training in a martial art does not mean there will be no social issues. Nor does it mean that the social issues are unimportant. The original poster is having a social issue and needs (or needed) help. Her original issue brings up all kinds of other related issues.

So discussing these is a problem? Why?

The thing is, these can have a very real impact on your training. You can't simply ignore them and hope they'll go away. Correctly dealing with them - even if that means putting them aside, which is not the same as ignoring them - is important to making sure you are getting the training you come to the dojo for.

But, more importantly, these are important issues to some people. Making light (or even making fun) of them is really inappropriate. I've certainly been guilty of being flippant at times, but I make a point of apologizing when I realize I've done so.

The "handbag.com" comment was, I think, a little over the top. I've been on the mat with Jo Adell and I have enormous respect for her. What's more, I know her teacher and I know him to be a very sincere and accomplished Aikidoka.



There are a lot of places where personal problems have no place but they intrude in any case. Simply dismissing them as unimportant is never the answer. Someone who finds themselves in such a situation needs to deal with it in a constructive and appropriate manner.

Someone who has little or no experience with such a situation may need or at least want help with required decisions. I feel like Aikiweb - especially the anonymous forums - should be a place where they can ask for that help without fear of being ridiculed or belittled.
I didn't say that the 'social issues' were unimportant. I just said that they have no place in the dojo. If you think you're joining some kind of quasi-religious cult, or New Age pacificist movement, as opposed to participating in a martial art, then I suppose you might have a different perspective. The whole point of a martial art is that you do 'deal' with these things while you're training but you do it in a way that fosters self reliance and a 'martial' (for want of a better word) spirit. The fact that this kind of discussion is even taking place is an indication (once again, in my opinion) of something seriously wrong with the general practice of aikido as martial art.

The Ellis Amdur book, I believe, discusses mainly Bruce Klickstein. Sexual abuse of a minor hardly qualifies as a 'relationship' in my book but the Klickstein thing has been done to death many times before.

Last edited by Mike Grant : 12-20-2006 at 01:37 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2006, 08:17 AM   #72
Qatana
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I'm still waiting to hear why it should be made more difficult for women to train.

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 12-20-2006, 08:20 AM   #73
Hanna B
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Maybe because there would be no such problem in a single-sex dojo... or maybe because all the women are in the dojo for the wrong reasons, i.e. for dating? That was the opinions of some of my ex-teachers reagarding the women who trained in Hombu Dojo in late 60s. "Their only reason to be there was trying to find a husband."

Of course, all the men are in the dojo for the right reason.

Last edited by Hanna B : 12-20-2006 at 08:26 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2006, 08:29 AM   #74
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Of course, all the men are in the dojo for the right reason.
Yeah, right....tell me another good one.

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 12-20-2006, 09:51 AM   #75
Fred Little
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Yeah, right....tell me another good one.

B,
R
Samurai culture was a model of heterosexual propriety.

FL
 

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