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Old 11-01-2006, 07:52 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Wasn't there a thread on Aikido-L many eons ago about "hakama hookers"? While I think that term is extremely derogatory, it can also capture a certain portion of the population. I think one of the worst things an aspiring female trainee can do is to put herself in that category. This goes ditto and in spades for the men who take advantage of that (interesting that there is no corresponding "hakama john" appellation, isn't it??).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 11-01-2006, 11:29 AM   #27
"Danger!"
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

This is a tricky one - the guy might be tempted to take advantage of you, then drop you when he's had his fill.

This is not unheard of.

Be extremely cautious, and find out what he wants. What you want, while of great importance to you, may be of no consequence to him.

Been there, done that, got the entire collection of T-shirts
 
Old 11-05-2006, 11:32 PM   #28
"Harrumph"
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Re women "borrowing" the guy's status: I prefer to earn my own status... someone else can have the guy.

Well, if the guy is interesting for other reasons, that's a different story.
 
Old 11-07-2006, 05:22 AM   #29
RoyK
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I was recently at a position when I witnessed a senior female student giving her instructor a kiss on the cheek that quickly sided to the side of his lips. she was the worst black belt on the mat, made me wonder what's going on there...
 
Old 11-07-2006, 09:23 AM   #30
Nick Simpson
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
I was recently at a position when I witnessed a senior female student giving her instructor a kiss on the cheek that quickly sided to the side of his lips. she was the worst black belt on the mat, made me wonder what's going on there...
Sex?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
 
Old 11-07-2006, 09:44 AM   #31
ian
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
There are many things to attraction. Both women and men are more often attracted to people who, if in a relation, would mean the man is the one with higher formal or informal status - it is a general pattern in our society.
Really this is a reply to Jo. In most primate societies men form the main power hierarchy and women form a secondary power hierarchy, usually through their attatchment to a high status male. OK, its extrapolation to suggest humans are the same, but men in powerful positions tend to have more sexual partners than average but the same is not true of powerful women. (Basically men and women aren't the same - completely different sexual strategies apply, partly because women are always sure their childern are their own whereas men never can be). I agree with what you are saying Hannah, and also admit that human societies are far more complex. But jo, male and female hierarchies are very very different.

Also reminds me of an interesting survey done about a year ago in the UK where women responded to a poll saying that almost all the women said that there should be equal pay (between men and women) but they also said in the same poll, that they preferred their partners to be earning more than them. This is an obvious biological case of forcing increased competition in men.

Last edited by ian : 11-07-2006 at 09:59 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
 
Old 11-07-2006, 12:04 PM   #32
Hanna B
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

And this is in reply to Ian.

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
In most primate societies men form the main power hierarchy and women form a secondary power hierarchy, usually through their attatchment to a high status male.
That kind of reasoning is c-r-a-p, honestly. No need going to other primates when we can study humans, since that kind of extrapolation might carry a long long way from reality. I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of animal data is severely outdated, too. People used to read all kinds of stuff into animal behaviour, based on their view of human society. For instance the "leader stallion" in a flock of horses was the concept, right? but now people have found that it really seems to be a bunch of female horses that take the decisions... (OK that is only what a friend told me so I don't have the source - but neither have you, I guess.)

I agree that in Western societies there to a certain extent exist separate male and female hierarchies even in an aikido dojo - probably more so than in many other contexts, because of the changing rooms. I also agree that they somewhat differ, and that a female's place in the hierarchy is somewhat dependent on what man they have a relationship to. I see no need to go to other species to explain this, though, and also I see no way of knowing to which extent this is biological - if at all. In this area so much crap is written and recirculated.
 
Old 11-07-2006, 12:14 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I'm not sure...but I think he meant primitive...as in most primitive societies. Otherwise he probably would have used male and female instead of men and women.

In many of the societies I had view to in East Africa, you could clearly see the delineation between the sexes as described. And the women had some very effective ways of over-ruling the men when needed. And there were women who stood outside of the norm quite successfully, though they were very rare.

There were even societies that were matrilineal, and some that had changed to patrilineal, but had myths recalling other wise.

Can you guess how the change happened? All the men conspired, and got all the female leaders pregnant at the same time! Then while they were giving birth, the men just took over.

Best,
Ron (I think I may need to remember that one...)

PS just kidding...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 11-07-2006, 12:26 PM   #34
Hanna B
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I'm not sure...but I think he meant primitive...as in most primitive societies.
Considering "OK, its extrapolation to suggest humans are the same" I think you are probably wrong.
 
Old 11-07-2006, 01:05 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

You may be right...BAD IAN...

Just Kidding...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 11-07-2006, 02:11 PM   #36
j0nharris
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I started training 11 years ago, & after being at the dojo a few months, I asked another student out, who had started training about the same time.
We've been married a little more than 9 years, & I have no regrets (says the guy whose wife is looking over his shoulder) .
I've also known guys in the dojo -- mostly younger -- who try to date just about every new woman who comes along, which can be a little icky to watch at times... .
I would agree with whoever said ti get to know him off the mat, & then see if he'd like to go out sometime.

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
 
Old 11-07-2006, 10:12 PM   #37
Qatana
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Perhaps my concept of Presence is what others think of as "power". It certainly Is powerful,so that those who actively develop their ability to be Present simply are the ones who become powerful. Maybe we mean the same thing with different terminology.
And yeah, I've read some anthropological studies too.

anyway, back to the topic- my sensei has been married to a former student for about 30 years, and his sensei is married to a current student. Sometimes dojo relationships work.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
 
Old 11-08-2006, 12:54 AM   #38
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Relationships sometimes work and sometimes not. Whether it's with mates, chance meeting or Aikido. Listen to your head and not your heart and you may not go too wrong -- easier said that done though.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
yann@york-aikido.org York Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 11-10-2006, 04:18 AM   #39
mut
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

if you have a crush on someone then ask them out, life is to short to worry, polotics is all mans opinion, .you have nothing to lose and everthing to gain. its better to regret something you have done than something you havent, go for it.
 
Old 11-10-2006, 11:04 PM   #40
"BeenThere"
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I started dating a higher raked person after being in my dojo for a couple of weeks. It lasted 1.5 years and ended ugly. Neither of us left the dojo. I never want to put my friends through that again (nor myself). I am currently seeing someone who does not do Aikido, which is nice. It's a part of my life that I can use as a personal "sanctuary."
 
Old 11-17-2006, 05:48 PM   #41
Steve Mullen
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Shihan, Sensei, Sempai, Kohai, Yudansha, Mudansha, we are all just people in the end. What if the person you are with joins aikido after you have started dating them, should you be expected to stop dating them just because you train together, just enjoy it for as long as you can. I would imagine that gettig to beat the hell out of each other a few times a week would help a relationship

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
 
Old 11-17-2006, 11:57 PM   #42
xuzen
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Did I ever mention I crush yudansha on a regular basis...kami shiho, tate shiho, yoko shiho....etc etc.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
 
Old 11-20-2006, 04:46 PM   #43
mriehle
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

As an instructor: I'm amused by these attractions because of their inevitability, but I discourage action on them.

As a student: I see all too often people forming little mutual admiration societies and excluding other students.

As a father who's daughter trains: I dislike watching her fall all over herself to train with "that cute guy". (Okay, she's fifteen and I know she'll get over this stage, but I'm still inclined to toss the potential boyfriend around just a little more roughly than I ought to. )

In addition I know of one local instructor who's had more than a few issues with his female students. He's been called a womanizer by several people that I know. I have an opinion on the accuracy of this accusation, but I feel it would be inappropriate for me to share it.

And, define "crush".

Aikido can be a very emotional art, IME. Combine that with the sheer physicalness of the art and of course you're going to find yourself interested in training partners for some extracurricular training. What you do about it depends a lot on the level and kind of the attraction. And your character.

Which is why you need to define "crush".

As an instructor I've had female students fall all over themselves to be nice to me and make their interest very clear. But it isn't real, it isn't about me, it's about The Sensei. The Sensei is not a real person, he's a mythical being who happens to look like me to this person at the moment and is actually interested in them (I'm not). Sooner or later they either quit Aikido or get over it and notice my feet of clay. Some of them become friends, others are too bothered by their previous issues with The Sensei to want to be around me.

Best thing I can do is pretend it isn't happening on the mat and avoid too much interaction with them off the mat. I quickly learned that even being friendly can be construed as encouragement. I also discovered that it's easy to fall into a trap of actually encouraging the behavior - hey, it feels good to have someone admire you even if it is for all the wrong reasons.

But I've seen women do something similar to other yudansha. Not often, fortunately, but it's uncomfortable for everyone involved. And if you pursue it and it's the wrong kind of crush you are going to create continuing awkwardness for you and the object of your crush.

Without going into a lot of detail, women who do this generally have a lot in common with each other, IME. The one detail I will point out is that as a rule these women are attracted to the symbol, not the man.

For the record, the men I see pursuing women on the mat tend to be completely unconcerned about rank; their interest seems more to do with the actual femaleness of their targets. I think, though, that they are also attracted to the symbol rather than the woman.

I've also seen people who were clearly attracted to each other on the mat keep a tight lid on it - at least during class - and there was never an awkward moment that I was aware of. It's probably selfish of me, but I prefer this. I wonder, too, if this doesn't indicate a more honest attraction.

Last edited by mriehle : 11-20-2006 at 04:49 PM.

 
Old 11-21-2006, 08:49 AM   #44
Krista DeCoste
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I'm just picking up on the word embarassed used by Lucy to describe how she felt about this crush. Don't leave the dojo because of a crush. Crushes are normal, a sign of your vitality. Embrace this crush as a positive sign of your vitality then get clear in your head about what your intentions are...having a crush does not require action or apology.
 
Old 11-24-2006, 10:14 PM   #45
"Sameboat"
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I was (am) in the same situation. How I handled it was to accept the fact that I was attracted, but not act on it on the mat. Instead, I approached him off the mat and it grew from there. The pitfall is when you unintentionally play favorites (instead of training with others) or bringing the relationship to the mat or inside the dojo, which is potentially uncomfortable for others.

So I do not believe there is anything wrong with going for it, but it's just making sure you keep your head. The dojo is the dojo and the relationship, I believe, is a personal matter not part of it. You should not bring your relationship dynamic inside and the dojo should not influence the choices you make outside of it.

Basically, have a dojo sphere and a private sphere. That's my two cents and it has worked out for me. : )
 
Old 11-30-2006, 09:14 PM   #46
Chiburi
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I'm really glad that Mr. Riehle made the distinction between himself and The Sensei. When you've trained under an instructor for awhile, and hold nothing less than absolute respect, then you idolize him/her. Sensei can be confused with Sensei. Personally, I've never had the problem of crushing on my Sensei. He's trained me since I was little.
Anyone hear the quote "to a child, Mother is God"? For me, God was Sensei. He's always been my perfect, unattainable, unreachable idol.
When I see him, on occasion, out of dojo, I still address him as Sensei, instead of his name, because I know Sensei, not him.
Relationships in the dojo...I'm torn about. Lots of people have found their partners on the mats, and many married couples train together, without being partial to their significant other. However, with the younger students, teenagers for example, it can cause severe problems. I've always avoided such relationships in the dojo because most people that age, not all, but most, are either immature enough the handle it, or don't know how to handle it.
It all depends on the person.
In "Lucy's" case, if she has her heart set on pursuing the yudansha, I would start out as friends out of the dojo, to know the person instead of sempai.

Shinma Hukumetsu
 
Old 12-05-2006, 01:59 PM   #47
sinead
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I have wondered about this phenomena and have one poorly developed theory. I feel that in the beginning it is easy to confuse the love of aikido with the love of a skilled aikidoka. Our brain tries to make sense of this love by attaching it to a person who can, potentially, return this love and validate our sense of self. I am not trying to knock relationships which have developed in the dojo and are sincere, loving and fulfilling, these are great and the best of luck to anyone involved in same. I do feel, however, that jumping into intimate relationships within the dojo can be harmful to the evolution of the individual practitioners. Having said that, I have had some lovely crushes which have given me pleasant day dreams, all natural, nice and I think a compliment to the inspiration, harmless fun as long as its kept in context. But that's just a personal view and very subjective.
 
Old 12-07-2006, 12:21 PM   #48
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

I started at a new dojo and fell hard for one of the students. The feeling was mutual, the whole affair was fast and short and ended in tears - on my half anyway, but we were both focussed enough on aikido that neither of us left. It's better now, and I'm currently harbouring feelings for a friend who is a more senior student at the dojo. While I don't regret the previous fling, it's making me cautious about this one. This guy is one of my best friends and training partners - he takes great ukemi - and that's more important to me than snagging a boyfriend.
 
Old 12-07-2006, 02:25 PM   #49
mriehle
 
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Two things on this thread have been bugging me. One of them I'm responsible for. So...

Hakama Hookers

I guess I missed that thread. It is pretty derogatory and - I think - wrong. Hakama groupies might be more accurate. IME, people who do this are star struck in the same way that groupies for rock stars are.

It may seem silly to someone else, but it's not silly to them.

The Sensei

FWIW: I see this phenomenon pop up in all kinds of contexts. The idea seems to go that The Sensei is somehow the embodiment of al things righteous and good. Sometimes to the point of endowing The Sensei with superhuman or even God like powers.

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I can't teach someone who regards me like that. For one thing I could never live up to that image. For another they don't actually pay attention very well. They're too busy being impressed.

Fortunately it's an uncommon - if not rare - phenomenon. Mostly it's new students who do this and most of them get over it pretty quickly.

Both things speak to an unrealistic idea about the object of the phenomenon. The yudansha who is "perfect" or The Sensei as superhuman both need some working on in the mind of the student who sees them in this way.

That was my real point in my previous message: if your crush is one of these two kinds of things you should step on it hard. Pursuing it can only lead to grief.

 
Old 12-12-2006, 07:06 PM   #50
michael_rath
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Re: Crush on a Yudansha!

Addressing the attraction. It's totally understandable. My wife told me about a guy she was in a play with and that fact that he was a good looking guy who could act was very attractive to her. I saw the guy and I've seen pictures of her previous boyfriends and this guy wasn't anything as far as looks were concerned (I'm not saying anything about this guys looks, it's just to make a point ) but his ability to act and his love for acting attracted her most of all. So it's not so crazy for some one to get a crush on some one shares an interest with you and is very good at it.
Let's face it when a girl I knew was good at sparring and would invite me over for a UFC pay-per-view that was my kind of chic .

The martial arts are about self-discipline and self-control as much as it is about being able to put some one down with little effort after seperating his shoudler and elbow from their joints. Use the aspect of your discipline and your control and do what you believe is going to be the right choice. Just bare in mind (I can't remember if you said he was your instructor or not so I'm sorry just bare with me) if he is your instructor that if your relationship ends badly you may need to find another dojo, or deal with being uncomfortable for the rest of your time there, especially if he gets married or starts seeing another woman. Or you may have to deal with the embarsement of asking and being rejected.
If he is not your instructor the same facets still exsist, but they should be easier to get over since your both adults. No matter what the situation your both just people who share an interest in aikido and who better to throw around then a boyfreind .

Michael
 

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