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Old 12-06-2006, 01:18 PM   #151
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

It ight help to understand that instead of opposing muscle groups you whould have opposing, contridictory tendon/ fascia and.....intent.
Holding opposing muscle tension may help you to feel some things at the very first but it really isn't going to help much in the long haul. I'd concentrate on stillness and holding frame, stabilize upper cross to hips and legs then, tendon/fascia, then movement with contridictory tensions and frame in place. Then breath power.
Shiko is about axis and same side connection, and opposite cross body line connections. Added things I'd say would be each axis itself (left, right, center) divided into outer and inner work.
But hey...thats just my opinion.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-06-2006 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:39 PM   #152
ChrisMoses
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
It ight help to understand that instead of opposing muscle groups you whould have opposing, contridictory tendon/ fascia and.....intent.
Holding opposing muscle tension may help you to feel some things at the very first but it really isn't going to help much in the long haul.
Yeah, I didn't phrase it very well. The exercises seem to teach you how to create internal tension against your own frame/support structures. I find that if I'm trying to create the maximum ammount of tension, this takes a great deal of mental concentration and very specific muscular movements. But it seems that you only progress by butting up against your own limits for tension creation. If I was doing the form without hitting that limit, I don't know if I would be getting anywhere near the same benefit. By opposing muscular groups, I was thinking more about how in some exercises you are twisting your lower body one way, and in order to maintain the upper structure, you have to work very hard with the back and shoulder muscles not to be pulled around. This in turn creates tension through the fascia connecting these two parts of the body. So it's these opposing groups I'm talking about rather than say the biceps vs. the triceps. I should have made that clearer.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:02 AM   #153
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote:
The exercises I believe you're interested in come from the Aunkai training of Akuzawa Minoru. Robert John has posted an article on a previous thread about some of these basic exercises:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...407#post152407

The article was originally posted at bullshido.com in two parts.

The "shiko" as it's been explained to me differs from the traditional sumo exercise. Akuzawa's version may be derived from his Daito-ryu training at the Sagawa dojo . . . Rob can certainly feel free to correct me on this.
Rmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Shiko is easy to show, difficult to describe.

I agree with Dan that the things that you can develop doing Shiko correctly are not necessarily available in modern day Sumo. IE I rarely see anyone in Sumo doing Shiko the way I do it. (That isn't to say the way they do it is wrong though, just different.)

In the beginning, it is essentially a way to

a) Develop the arch in the legs (known as "dang" in chinese, it supports and sends power up the spine)

b) Seperate, develop awareness in three axis of the human body.
Center, Left and Right. Left and Right axis refer to a perpindicular imaginary line running from shoulder to hip/knee. (Its different from the axis mentioned in the "cross" etc.) Awareness/ development of these axis along with the development of the dang teach proper weight transfer.

c) Its an easier version of developing up/down front/back connection.

If anyone wants to attempt doing Shiko, I'd say go ahead and do it, but you need some other tanren (solo training) to develop your bodies structure so it changes in nature.
Within what I do, I'd suggest Mabu and Ten-chi-jin along with the Raising legs exercise. Other people may have different suggestions, and that's definitely alright, so long as they can tell you how and what is exactly being trained.

Chris:
From my experience, don't drive your weight into the stomp. (If you're doing what I think you're doing) The "drop" will develop naturally so long as you develop the connections.
Keep up putting the foot down softly, but don't exaggerate. Put it down naturally, and try to keep the "dang"/arch in place between the knees.

Other things you might want to play with:
When you're tilted at that 45 degree angle, play around with sending power through the front of the chest, and alternatively through the scaps. From one end to the other. Play with how it affects your body. Later that stuff will be fun to play around with in striking

All the exercises feed into each other.
So anything you realize in one exercise should be immediately transferable to another exercise. (Which is great, since a lot of thigns aren't immediately apparent when doing certain exercises)


Thomas:
Not sure where Ark picked up his way of doing it. I'm pretty sure he developed it on his own. His way of doing it is even more "advanced." (I can tell just by looking) I'm still at the beginning stages myself
In the end though, it all boils back to the Ten-Chi-Jin concept.
Raise to Heaven, Sink to Earth, all the while Bringing back to the self.
Btw, that last part, "Bringing back to the self" is hugely important in Ark's book. (Just to be clear this is a physical concept, not some LSD induced hippy fantasy). Intent, focus is directed inward inward inward. This becomes especially important when interfacing with someone in sparring
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:09 AM   #154
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I was thinking more about how in some exercises you are twisting your lower body one way, and in order to maintain the upper structure, you have to work very hard with the back and shoulder muscles not to be pulled around. This in turn creates tension through the fascia connecting these two parts of the body. So it's these opposing groups I'm talking about rather than say the biceps vs. the triceps. I should have made that clearer.
Later, it'll soften up
You'll be able to relax those opposing muscle groups while keeping a "piano wire" of tension running through the body. Keeping only those parts that need to be tensed just enough.

I just had a breakthrough in the twisty exercise. (The one that develops torque directly) Gained a more concrete understanding of how to "sit" within the pelvic region, without relying on the leg muscles (I already knew how to do this, but it was taking way too much intent), and was able to relax/sink down all the while torquing my body...of course then that achievement simply rewarded me with the fact that now I can do even harder lower basin training (read: stance lowered even further and made more compact = torture +500 status)
oh joy....

No doubt Ark's also going to reward me with
"Oh, looking good, now lower, lower, <shove shove>"
<insert "oh holy #$ck" look of despair on my face>

Seriously, sometimes I wonder if I should just up and go join the Capoeira club at the Sports center, at least they got hotties working out in tights
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:33 AM   #155
ChrisMoses
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Chris:
From my experience, don't drive your weight into the stomp. (If you're doing what I think you're doing) The "drop" will develop naturally so long as you develop the connections.
Keep up putting the foot down softly, but don't exaggerate. Put it down naturally, and try to keep the "dang"/arch in place between the knees.
God this stuff's hard to describe...

Sounds like I'm on the right track here. I'm trying to maintain the shape/structure of the body as I lower the leg, but also allow the natural ammount of weight to transfer into that side of my stucture (as opposed to keeping my weight balanced on my standing leg in order to place the descending foot totally softly on the ground but sacrificing the integrity of the body structure). In our stuff we make a distinction between a weight drop and a stomp, I'm trying to do this as a controlled weight drop, rather than a stomp (which tends to cause you to use the muscles of the leg to hit the ground). That make any sense to anyone?

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:42 AM   #156
ChrisMoses
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Later, it'll soften up
I'll take your word on it. (just kidding, I can already feel this happening in some stuff, like getting the arms behind the head in the tenchi exercise, it's still hard, but not like pulling cold taffy.)

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I just had a breakthrough in the twisty exercise. (The one that develops torque directly) Gained a more concrete understanding of how to "sit" within the pelvic region, without relying on the leg muscles (I already knew how to do this, but it was taking way too much intent), and was able to relax/sink down all the while torquing my body...of course then that achievement simply rewarded me with the fact that now I can do even harder lower basin training (read: stance lowered even further and made more compact = torture +500 status)
oh joy....
Are you talking about the standing cross double kick around spin thingy or the bent forward swinging the arms slappin doohickey? (How you like my t3knikal jargon yo?) I'm guessing you're talking about the standing cross double kick around spin thingy. I'm still fighting the natural tendancy to arch the back when the first leg comes around, but I generally don't stumble and sway with the second 1/2. That one is really hard to maintain the cross throughout, but it's also one of the exercises that I've found the most obviously applicable (my uchimata and makikomi have both changed from this exercise for example).



Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if I should just up and go join the Capoeira club at the Sports center, at least they got hotties working out in tights
I miss training with women... Buncha sweaty men in a basement, people might start to talk...

Chris Moses
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:31 AM   #157
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I can already feel this happening in some stuff, like getting the arms behind the head in the tenchi exercise, it's still hard, but not like pulling cold taffy.)
The last time I did a good set of tenchi, I was playing with how to hold the shoulders (I've been out of the gym for two weeks but I'm fixing that today). A week before that I was doing something strange that pulled a bunch of muscle in that spot between the shoulder blades and the spine. Ouch. Since then I've also learned that I've been doing everything with a collapsed neck, which makes vertical tension in the spine nearly impossible.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Are you talking about the standing cross double kick around spin thingy or the bent forward swinging the arms slappin doohickey?
I had to read that twice.. I thought you were talking about the hands out front drop and spin the low kick exercise. You're ahead of me if you can already spin with some decency, and I'm excited to hear that you've found it so applicable. But I think I've figured some lower-body stuff out that has been keeping from being able to do anything but kick straight out.
Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Buncha sweaty men in a basement
Which Reminds Me. I'm rather looking forward to grappling with the well-toned young men that the BJJ scene attracts. As an objective test of my body development.

Last edited by Tom H. : 12-07-2006 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:57 AM   #158
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
I had to read that twice.. I thought you were talking about the hands out front drop and spin the low kick exercise. You're ahead of me if you can already spin with some decency, and I'm excited to hear that you've found it so applicable.
Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha.... I can't do that one to save my life. I think I came close once, yeah, that's it...

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
Which Reminds Me. I'm rather looking forward to grappling with the well-toned young men that the BJJ scene attracts. As an objective test of my body development.
Just don't make eye contact and it's all good.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:49 PM   #159
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha.... I can't do that one to save my life. I think I came close once, yeah, that's it...
Haha, good to know all the tough talk is just that, talk,.... and we're in the same boat! Don't you also feel that if you could get control of your lower body all your problems would go away?
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:54 PM   #160
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
Are you talking about the standing cross double kick around spin thingy or the bent forward swinging the arms slappin doohickey? (How you like my t3knikal jargon yo?) I'm guessing you're talking about the standing cross double kick around spin thingy. I'm still fighting the natural tendancy to arch the back when the first leg comes around, but I generally don't stumble and sway with the second 1/2. That one is really hard to maintain the cross throughout, but it's also one of the exercises that I've found the most obviously applicable (my uchimata and makikomi have both changed from this exercise for example).
Rmmm, sorry it's not that one, nor is it the "sweep" exercise.
(But both of those are alternative exercises of the torquing exercise im talking about)
Remember the one where you stand in wide mabu (about twice your shoulder width) hold your hands out to the sides, shoulder blades touching, then twist yourself around? Rear knee should be down, but not touching the floor. It's a static posture we hold for about 30sec-minute, and then switch to twist to the other side.

hopefully that made it clearer?
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:06 PM   #161
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

AW Crap!!!!
Forgot about that one.....

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:08 PM   #162
Haole
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

just did the twisty thing twice, hahaha that burns.

Couple of questions for you.

When you say arms out shoulder blades touching are the hands held palms facing outward and fingers straight up?

Is part of the focus of this excerise to maintain the intgerity of the three upper axis?

Someone needs to make a video of all these exercises.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:09 PM   #163
Upyu
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Griffin wrote:
just did the twisty thing twice, hahaha that burns.

Couple of questions for you.

When you say arms out shoulder blades touching are the hands held palms facing outward and fingers straight up?

Is part of the focus of this excerise to maintain the intgerity of the three upper axis?

Someone needs to make a video of all these exercises.
Nope, fingers are held straight out, not up. (Kind of like kids playing "airplane" )

Essentially you're correct.
If by three upper axis you're referring to up/down, left/right/ front/back then yes. But they also exist in the lower part of the body as well. Actually the goal is to manifest it in all parts of the body.

What the exercise works to do is "twist" the upper and lower portions of the body against each other creating a "torque" in the body, all the while you strive to maintain the u/d, l/r, f/b pulls in the body.
Really all it is is the shaved down version of this:
http://www.kuoshu.net/Pics/hsing-i6.gif
th3 ub3r DRAg0N stance in Hsing-yi
Which I'm sure you've seen countless variations in chinese fist styles. Ark's mentioned it's also in Japanese Kenjutsu, though the external shape is different.
(Shape/Frame is just a training tool afterall)

More video??? jk
I'll see what I can't get up on Youtube at some point

Last edited by Upyu : 12-07-2006 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:24 PM   #164
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hah!!.... ya baby

We do a low to high standing version of that. They end up with the arm fully extended on say the right side with it pulling up the entire side with the leg lifted and held with the tension out into the hand. The left is pushing down with tension running down on the other side. You end up looking like one of those Japanese statues.
We hold it and play the tensions in the spine, while working the upper cross across the opposite hands. You can actually work it back to front, and feel it change.
Then have guys start to push on you.

Rob Tom showed me the upper cross arm movement. I guess thats only for someone starting the upper work.
We do a version of that but it uses far more of the lower body.
You start with a right arm right leg forward. With a pulling in.
The left is being fed and wound in from the right and when they meet you hold it in the chest.
Now the pull on the right feeds the push on the left and from no movement you are loaded and launched. In slow motion we have someone hold your pulling hand anf you feed into it with the other hands intent. Suddenly they lose all abiltiy to pull on you as you are pulling, pushing out, while sinking, while windsing in and up.
Then back to going across the floor.....lower...lower

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-07-2006 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:03 AM   #165
ChrisMoses
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Rmmm, sorry it's not that one, nor is it the "sweep" exercise.
(But both of those are alternative exercises of the torquing exercise im talking about)
Remember the one where you stand in wide mabu (about twice your shoulder width) hold your hands out to the sides, shoulder blades touching, then twist yourself around? Rear knee should be down, but not touching the floor. It's a static posture we hold for about 30sec-minute, and then switch to twist to the other side.

hopefully that made it clearer?
I think my pain receptors blocked that one completely from my memory...

Chris Moses
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:11 AM   #166
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I could cry just thinking about it....

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 12-08-2006, 05:17 AM   #167
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Rob Tom showed me the upper cross arm movement. *snip*
Dan's talking about shintaijiku. I'm doing a pretty limited set of exercises: shiko, leg raises, shintaijiku, and tenchjin. Tenchijin is the only place I get into really low stances right now--yesterday I made it through approximately 5 without dying. The thought of being held accountable for understanding what I'm doing or showing (e.g. in a situation like this) drives me into the gym .
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:10 AM   #168
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

I should have added: Dan was showing me something he though was similar. I roughly remember it as stepping forward from one hanmi to the other, with the arms stretched out over same-side feet at waist height. I like it.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:29 AM   #169
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Gees Tom...
Is that all I was doing?
And all Shiko is-is lifting a leg at the fire hydrant

I seem to remember me having you hold my arms and showing you the push-pull power in both hands. That was to demonstrate the frame being supported by windings happening in the body. There is a moment where the connection of the right line coming in and down feeds the left side coming up and out. it is not a first step exercise.
1. Without the upper cross it won't work
2. Without the uppercross working in unison with the lower it wont work -under stress you will break at the middle
3. Without keeping the kua open, and then being able to move with it open your power is reduced
4. Without being able to twist at the waist and keep it open your hip flexors will kick in and you will close and just use muscle.
5. The windings go from the feet to the finger tips and have to be worked exhaustively. And if you are doing them right they are fairly painful and exhausting.
6. Carrying tension in the spine while maintaining the connection across the scapular chest while moving, while holding it all together with winding loads the body to instantly luanch the move. You don't move or just walk. You connect and launch, connect then launch
Building those connections till they becom natural under normal movement and motion.
I don't imagine you remembered the front sinking back rising work?
So your sinking and rising on the vertical plane twisting and opening closing in the horizontal plane, and pulling and pushing at the sametime in the saggital plane. All at the same time. I'm probably stupid but it took me a long time to get there. To be able to generate whole body power in a conitnuous flow in motion.

But you're right in how this is like the Aunkia's exercises I've no idea at all. And I for one am looking forward to finding out. I intend to find out next year and go play with Rob and Ark.

Cheers Bud
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-08-2006 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:50 AM   #170
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Rob,

Are you familiar with the sokumen posture from Daito ryu / Yoshinkan? This reminds me of that...I had a Japanese sempai who used to do the sokumen posture / xstep / sokumen all the way across the dojo and back repeatedly. He is one of the folks in aikido that I really feel has the internal connections down...

Do you think there is a relation?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:14 AM   #171
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Is that all I was doing?
And all Shiko is-is lifting a leg at the fire hydrant
Sorry, I don't mean to short-change you. I deliberately cut all the internal goings-on. Given the external form of an exercise, I figure both Rob and you can deduce more about what's being worked on the inside than I could explain. I'm reluctant to translate for anyone until I'm at least conversationally proficient.
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:24 AM   #172
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you find that you take offense to someone, anyone, telling you that your training is lacking in anything, then you might want to take a look inside yourself to see why. What does an outsider's words really mean to your training? People from karate, taekwondo, BJJ, etc have ripped apart Aikido yet I see very few take offense at that. Would you take offense if some karate person said your aikido training was fluffy bunny unrealistic hype?
But yet, here are Dan, Mike, and Rob saying that aikido training is missing something and it's created a windstorm of talk. Why is that?
Mark
As I wrote in the Boundless aikido thread I have been talking with a series of Aikido people lately. Its always interesting to hear others takes on whats been written. Things we miss -that are pertinent to them -and then their reasons why things of no consequence to us, captured their attention.
Once person picked this out of Marks comments and had a response that I asked if I could steal and post here.

They feel the reason that this "talk" has created "a windstorm
over typical aikido bashing" is that it is different. The guys talking about it are not bashing aikido as useless but stating clearly that it both can remain true to its own roots and be superior as an art. They went on to say that it caused them to drag out their vidoes and also go to Aikido journal and watch and they suddenly saw with different eyes and..."knew"..... what we have been saying is true.
This stuff......is.....what Ueshiba was doing.
How many, I wonder, have that same needling, sneaking suspicion?

Anyway, I agreed and added that without it.... there is no "Ueshiba Aikido" Its all Kissomaru Aikido.
And it is the reason Tohei and Shioda left. Its also the reason they look "different."

Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-17-2006, 04:26 PM   #173
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
[snip]And all Shiko is-is lifting a leg at the fire hydrant

[snip]
Some guys seem like they are pulling the hydrant out of the ground then replanting it.
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Old 12-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #174
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Look Ma...
My feet are in my hands.
My hands are in my feet.
My neck is my butt.
I have this wierd feeling in my spine..........

"Johnny, We already know that. Your father always said your head was up your.... And don't forget to take your halldal. You're talking wierd agan."


Dan
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