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Old 11-01-2006, 05:39 AM   #101
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
I can only add an anecdote, with the proviso that I know at least one person on this forum who has (with reason) a not very high opinion of the person in my story. One of the seniors at Abe Seiseki's dojo could take my balance in the same way as Mark described Dan doing (I do not imply that they are doing the same thing). I used to grab him (wrist, elbow, shoulder) for example, and he said "all your balance belong to us", although for me there was no difference in how I felt or in particular how I felt wrt the ground. But very slowly he would move just a millimeter to show me and I would feel that I had no leverage whatsover to resist. That was about a year ago. My opinion is that my "listening" skills were (are) not anywhere near enough developed to realize what was happening inside me. After all, balance does not need to mean "on the verge falling over and actively trying to stay upright", it may simply mean "aligned such that I am weak in a given direction". In particular, most of us are stiff in some part of our bodies (unable to relax), and if the partner can feel that hardness and push against it (presumably from a lower position inside their own body, and via the ground) then I cannot "relax and sink" to recover, but need to move the feet (or other joints fairly obviously) to get leverage to resist. If the partner's alignment is such that he can push through the hardness in my body into my feet, then persumably I cannot lift at least one of them.
My listening skills are also not anywhere near good enough to realize what either Ikeda or Dan did. One person's sublte is another person's Godzilla.

Ikeda could be using internal skills. I really wouldn't know at this point. I know I'm not close to his level of skill, at the very least.

After thinking about it some more ... I'd characterize another slight difference between Ikeda and Dan. How to explain it, though. As uke, when working with some higher level Aikido people, the feeling I'd get when technique was done was more of a "pit of the stomach" or hara or center kind of feeling. Sort of like that feeling you get when you're on a roller coaster and dropping down the incline. Sort of. Well, on a subtle level, I kind of felt that with Ikeda. Sort of my center being rolled. With Dan, it felt more like my whole body being affected, or my entirety being affected rather than my center being rolled. Not sure if that explains it well, or not. And it wasn't a big difference, we're talking subtleties (at least for me).

Just a disclaimer to make sure everyone understands my thoughts. I'd be happy to be able to do half of what Ikeda or Dan can do. I've talked about meeting Dan, so I'll say a short bit about Ikeda. He was very friendly and a good instructor. He seemed to want everyone there to be able to get what he was doing. He went around and had pretty much everyone, at some point, get a chance to feel his technique. And I'll reiterate that his level of subtle was very good.

Thanks Ron for introducing me to Ikeda sensei and Utada sensei after the one session. It's greatly appreciated.

Mark
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:01 AM   #102
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Mark, always glad to do things like that. Just sad I couldn't train. Working on that though.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:04 AM   #103
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
In particular, most of us are stiff in some part of our bodies (unable to relax), and if the partner can feel that hardness and push against it (presumably from a lower position inside their own body, and via the ground) then I cannot "relax and sink" to recover, but need to move the feet (or other joints fairly obviously) to get leverage to resist.
'

I think this is what I've felt from Ikeda Sensei and my own teacher. Although Utada Sensei often gives me the feeling of being stretched out, so that I can not sink my weight to maintain my balance. It's as if he draws me out of my center, often upwards, and at that point, resistance is futile.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:26 AM   #104
Mike Sigman
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
My listening skills are also not anywhere near good enough to realize what either Ikeda or Dan did.
"Listening" is an offshoot of having jin/kokyu skills. Of course many people think "listening" is the normal tactile skills we have, but it actually means something fairly sophisticated and that skill develops as your jin/kokyu skills develop. Watching Shioda, Sunadomari, and some others, it was apparent that they could "listen" to feel where the "holes" in the opponent's balance were. So they could "aiki" by blending mind-controlled force directions, but they could also "listen" with the jin/kokyu/'ki' of their bodies when the touch the opponent.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-01-2006, 03:23 PM   #105
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

A very interesting post over on E-Budo about Akuzawa.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...129#post427129

It ties in to what Rob, Dan, and Mike have been saying.

Thanks to Christian Moses for posting!

Mark
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:10 PM   #106
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
A very interesting post over on E-Budo about Akuzawa.
It's interesting to read it from Chris. I also notice that you, Mark, seem to be one of the few active moderators (besides Ellis when he sometimes speaks) on E-Budo that doesn't seem to have a fixed idea that what you know about martial arts is the be-all and end-all of martial knowledge. Nathan Scott seems like a nice-enough guy, but he's so far off-base about Ueshiba and Aikido and "outside skills" that it's ridiculous.

There are indeed some differences in what Ueshiba did, for instance, in his usage of ki/kokyu skills for Aikido and what someone like Ushiro does with his accomplishments of ki/kokyu... but the resounding theme in Asian martial arts is that they all use these skills. This hierarchy of "teachers" who don't know enough about the basic skills to understand that commonality throughout the Asian arts is what is slowing progress in Asian-derived martial arts.

So probably the answer is to do what Chris Moses did... just skirt around the hierarchy and look for yourself. When someone gains the basic skills they can modify them to fit in with what Ueshiba taught, etc.

Regardless, all of these conversations, looking and seeing, comparing notes, etc., is good. Like Ueshiba said... "figure it out for yourself". I.e., don't be a sheep; do some thinking.

Mike
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Old 11-02-2006, 06:58 PM   #107
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Greetings All,

I just want to make it clear, after all this very helpful discussion, that my invitation to Dan is still open.

Sincerely,

Jim Sorrentino
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:50 PM   #108
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hello Jim,

If I'm down your way, I'll say hello. Or maybe make the next seminar.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 11-05-2006, 07:10 AM   #109
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Mark,

I hope so --- see you on the mat!

Jim
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:23 AM   #110
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
Dan, I'm curious, when you teach your technique or style for lack of a better word, all you do is throw around or knock around your students? Are you ever thrown? Do they keep trying until eventually they can throw you? Is that the end state or goal of the training methodology?

Joe
Hi Joe
Guys who train with me learn the gammut of jujutsu; striking, kicking, chocking, various joint locks, then knife work etc. The body skills are a separate thing. Yes I do take Ukemi from them with the goal of identifying and correcting various points. Usually I do this to also show reversals and ways out of things. Actually I hate it because the only way I am going to get thrown is by breaking my structure.
And we freestyle it -gloves and no gi-no I am not thrown. But its still just sweat and hard work; solo training then paired. No one, and no thing, is magic or unstoppable.

I have no issues with failing, Joe, since there is always more to learn. I am an advocate of "The one word definetion of success? Is "failure." And I love experimenting, researching, and learning.
If you attach ego or "needing" to win to fighting, it can get in your way. Cold analysis is always best.

The end state you asked about has never arrived. How depressing a thought would that be? That I don't have more to learn, Yuk!
I hope to be 80 and still call myself a student.

Overall I think the whole martial schtick of taking ukemi is a failure anyway. The real goals of training the body for bujutsu has all but been abandoned. You should be training to be unthrowable not perfecting falling down. Yeah yeah, dare to say it and the ukemi freaks jump all over you about safety.
So Ok, you can learn ukemi in a very short time. Why..........Why....... after that- aren't you spending the rest of your time being thee absolute safest. That being? To develope a body that it unthrowable?
Why?
a. Very few know and train it.
b. Doesn't make for rank and file "followers" and systems.

For most guys- they have to get out of the training box they're in- to look ahead- to not playing the game That's when you start to see. The idea of Budo was always to learn what the other guys were doing ....not....to be a part of the game in the first place- but to learn to take them apart. I had this discussion with a friend- a long time Koryu guy. Its the essence of why things were hidden. We have devoloped that... into these twenty year indentureships that only serve to indoctrinate the men into conditioned "respondies." Exposure to repetative and known techniques and principles produce-rather nicely I might add- conditioned responses to same. Involving ourselves and indoctrinating ourselves in "a way" actually contributes to setting us up for the techniques of the art we are in. Thus it weakens us from our true potential.
Many so called masters we like to read and write about have written about a vision past the art they studied. In fact we have a legacy of innovators who have left the arts or never joined them in the first place. They saw past technique and rank to true budo.
Many modern guys have no vision at all past their next technique or rank.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-10-2006 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:36 AM   #111
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Overall I think the whole martial schtick of taking ukemi is a failure anyway. The real goals of training the body for bujutsu has all but been abandoned. You should be training to be unthrowable not perfecting falling down. Yeah yeah, dare to say it and the ukemi freaks jump all over you about safety.
So Ok, you can learn ukemi in a very short time. Why..........Why....... after that- aren't you spending the rest of your time being thee absolute safest. That being? To develope a body that it unthrowable?
Why? Doesn't make for rank and file "followers" and systems.
Hi Dan.

Ukemi definitely has its uses in, and outside, the dojo. When I resist, it's very difficult for my students to throw me, but I can stll be thrown.

Ukemi waza played a major role in saving me from injury when I fell...

...from a truck.

With respect,

James

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:46 AM   #112
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Actually I hate it because the only way I am going to get thrown is by breaking my structure.
Er, Dan, that's a pretty hefty brag. You understand some jin. A lot of beginners are going to be buffaloed by it. However, people who are used to dealing with jin are not going to be stopped by it.... they'll use it against you in an instant. While a lot of this stuff in "new ground" for a lot of westerners, you should probably consider that there are things which might be "new ground" to you, as well... unless, of course, you already know everything.

Frankly, and I realize that I'm repeating myself once more, I think you can discuss these things outside of the context of personal brags.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:00 PM   #113
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Mike
Its not a brag
Read
I was referring to training with my own guys. But I have also been training out of the loop with various CMA people and have yet to be thrown. I will be more than happy to report back when it occurs. Why? No one will be more pleased than I. It's not a matter of winning or losing Mike..... its research.

I have been training with the best I can find. Most recently with Wang Hai jun and I spent the day with him one-on-one and later privately discussing things with ground work with Pride fights on the TV and hands on in the living room as well as tactical uses in more combative formats. He was funny and very open with his hands on me and mine on him and answered more quesions than I asked, and asked me to describe in detail what I was doing with his hands on me. Asking me to repeat and explain. I'm having a blast learning and researching. He was a great guy. The second I have met.

Funny, but isn't that just what you said was so great about what Chris Moses was doing? Getting out there and feeling?

First you told me I don't know anything about the internal arts. Remember that?
Then I didn't know any of the jins
Now YOU tell me I know the basic one jin?
What kind of car do I drive?
What am I wearing

You're the one wanting to discuss how these things are done-with llittle or no informaton given on your part that I have seen beyond very basic stuff. So, like you, I don't talk about it while talking about it.
Unlike you I don't claim to have talked about while not.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-10-2006 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:05 PM   #114
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

James
Where did I say not to learn Ukemi?
Where did I say it has no use?

What in fact "did" I say in your view?
What was the actual thrust or overall point about the topic of Ukemi and the way we have all trained in the arts?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-10-2006 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:29 PM   #115
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Mike
Its not a brag
Read
I did. Your posts always read too much like brags, to me, Dan. But others have publicly noted the same thing, so instead of trying to turn it back onto me, maybe you should temper your posts a bit?
Quote:
I have been training with the best I can find. Most recently with Wang Hai jun and I spent the day with him one-on-one and later privately discussing things with ground work with Pride fights on the TV and hands on in the living room as well as tactical uses in more combative formats. He was funny and very open with his hands on me and mine on him and answered more quesions than I asked, and asked me to describe in detail what I was doing with his hands on me. Asking me to repeat and explain. I'm having a blast learning and researching. He was a great guy. The second I have met.
Last time, you were bragging how Wang Hai Jun's teacher could do nothing to you, Dan. Remember? Hello? Chen Zheng Lei? Now you are learning so much from the student? I'm sure WHJ is friendly, Dan, but my suggestion is that you try to just learn rather than go around name-dropping on this forum, Empty Flower, and others.
Quote:
Funny, but isn't that just what you said was so great about what Chris Moses was doing? Getting out there and feeling?
Chris doesn't brag about what he could do and how others were stunned. Chris talks about the issues.
Quote:
First you told me I don't know anything about the internal arts. Remember that?
Then I didn't know any of the jins
Now YOU tell me I know the basic one jin?
No, that's a misquote. I said you know some basic jin. I.e, you have some elementary jin, Dan. I did not say that you know all about jin. You don't know all of it. And once again, Dan, if you quote me for saying something, provide the quote. In the past, when I've asked you for quotes, when you attribute something to me, you duck and run. Do not tell me what I've said unless you can provide the quote, since you seem to always fabricate it.
Quote:
You're the one wanting to discuss how these things are done-with llittle or no informaton given on your part that I have seen beyond very basic stuff. So, like you, I don't talk about it while talking about it.
Unlike you I don't claim to have talked about while not.
I'm not sure what you're saying, Dan. Maybe ask Ron Tisdale, who is a pretty fair list observer, if I provide information on how-to. Do NOT start telling me what I say and don't say, Dan, since you tend to just make it up.

Did you tell Wang Hai Jun that you publicly bragged that his teacher couldn't budge you, etc.? I suspect not.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:50 PM   #116
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

While I appeciate being seen as impartial, I really don't want to come between you two. I like and respect you both for your diffent perspectives as well as where you agree. So...have at it! I learn more that way...

Best (I really mean that),
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:07 PM   #117
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

You know Mike I denied that in thread it appeared on, I explained it there and to you privately about the error in the post relating to "their teacher(s) meaning the admittedly low level teachers (I had mentioned again in a following post- and not their (teacher) You even know who they are. I went back read and caught the error, it was an innocent error in a long post about being able to use Internal sills even if you don't know the art and how I could toss their teacher(s). I apologized to Herb for the screw up and sent him copies and denied it back at you in that same thread from long ago. Why are you bringing it up again and making a fuss over an admitted error. In fact why are you doing this at all? I explained it then, explained in a private email to you. Yet you want to keep bringing it up ...
Oh well.

As for the posts. I write about what I do. In fact I took your advice about toning it down and trying to write more about what the skills can do for anybody- not just what I am doing with them.

I will most assuredly write in the time, place and person who tosses me. I am looking forward to it happening in China as I know it will. I'll be -quite- happy about it. You attach semblances of ego and bragging to it, I don't. It's about learning and testing yourself.
It has a long history in the arts. Losing is winning,

I'm glad to see you explain your views on me and jins. You seem to skip over and miss all my comments and denials of mastery, teaching, of this being shop talk, and research, and that no one is unstoppable, etc etc...you skip right on by.
I'll be happy to keep on making friends and researching with those interested. In fact it appears many are.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-10-2006 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:11 PM   #118
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Thanks Ron.
We don't get along. Have you noticed?

Dan
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:22 PM   #119
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Yeah well...my mom and my brother don't get along either...I love em both dearly, but don't want to be in the mix...if you know what I mean...

I've generally found that if I stick my nose in too close, it get's bloodied....

B,
R

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Old 11-10-2006, 06:16 PM   #120
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Oy. I thought this thread was finally finished, like, over a week ago...

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 11-10-2006 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 11-13-2006, 11:30 AM   #121
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Cady,
Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote:
Oy. I thought this thread was finally finished, like, over a week ago...
Thanks for doing your part to keep it alive!

Are you back in the Mass. area? If so, you might want to check out Hiroshi Ikeda-sensei this coming weekend in Boston. Since you have studied with Dan for a while, I'd be interested to hear your take on what Ikeda-sensei is doing. For that matter, if Dan or any of his other students make the scene, I'd be interested in hearing their opinions as well. There is more information on the seminar at http://www.shobu.org/fliers/fall2006.pdf.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:26 PM   #122
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Hi Cady,Thanks for doing your part to keep it alive!

Are you back in the Mass. area? If so, you might want to check out Hiroshi Ikeda-sensei this coming weekend in Boston. Since you have studied with Dan for a while, I'd be interested to hear your take on what Ikeda-sensei is doing. For that matter, if Dan or any of his other students make the scene, I'd be interested in hearing their opinions as well. There is more information on the seminar at http://www.shobu.org/fliers/fall2006.pdf.

Sincerely,

Jim
I would agree with Jim's recommendation. I found Ikeda sensei to be friendly, skilled, and a very good teacher. I'm very glad I made the Friendship Seminar. I'm hoping that I can make another of his seminars sometime in the future to figure out just what he's doing.

Mark
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:07 AM   #123
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Joe
Guys who train with me learn the gammut of jujutsu; striking, kicking, chocking, various joint locks, then knife work etc. The body skills are a separate thing. Yes I do take Ukemi from them with the goal of identifying and correcting various points. Usually I do this to also show reversals and ways out of things. Actually I hate it because the only way I am going to get thrown is by breaking my structure...And we freestyle it -gloves and no gi-no I am not thrown. But its still just sweat and hard work; solo training then paired. No one, and no thing, is magic or unstoppable....Cheers Dan
Dan,

I wasn't trying to dig into you, just curious on how you structured the learning process. I recently attended a seminar here in the UK were everything from the warm up stretching through the technique into the cool down were all geared to proper understanding of the underlying principles. Everything dovetailed nicely together to emphasis the principle. It was marvelously structured.
Thanks for answering my question. I'm sure you would be fun to train with....

joe
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:20 PM   #124
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote:
Dan,

I wasn't trying to dig into you, just curious on how you structured the learning process. I recently attended a seminar here in the UK were everything from the warm up stretching through the technique into the cool down were all geared to proper understanding of the underlying principles. Everything dovetailed nicely together to emphasis the principle. It was marvelously structured.
Thanks for answering my question. I'm sure you would be fun to train with....

joe
Joe
I didn't think you were digging. I was just trying to give you an all around view of goals. There are still plenty of exercises people could do at home for power once they learn them, But there are other things we do as well to teach you how to fight with them. That's a whole other topic. Everything we do dovetails in as you say. Though I prefer to think of it like building links. Training sessions are linked week by week and month by month with goals.
Since I don't teach seminars- I don't even think about a "structured learning process" in that "single visit" venue. Nor, do I want to. I think relationships where you learn and know and then develop programs for people on an individual basis are better. Since my time is precious to me- I think its more productive for both parties.
Hope that explains it better
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-18-2006 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:22 AM   #125
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Exerpt from an article in Aikido Journal online-
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=688

From Ikeda Sensei after hosting Karate teacher Ushiro at Aikido summer camp In Colorado for the second time. His excellent observations

.............Peace cannot be made unless we all come together - not just karate and aikido, but all budo.

The kind of power through kokyu that Ushiro sensei has been teaching is completely different from what is usually thought of as kokyu. All of the people who came to this camp experienced this. It may have been only an introduction to this kind of practice and this kind of power, but I think it was a real plus for people to be able to experience it.


There will be no growth if we just repeat what is currently being done. For ourselves and for the Aikido of the future, it is necessary to completely change the way aikido is practiced. I think we have come to this critical crossroads."

Needless to say, how to work through this crisis, as Ikeda shihan describes, is the next problem. Any practitioner can have as their goal controlling and overcoming the opponent without using strength, without touching. However, we must ask ourselves if practice that entails only technical explanations and mindless repetition provides us with the necessary tools for achieving such a goal. The circular movement of aikido at first glance appears to be soft, but the fact is, that there is still a collision of forces, and anyone who has practiced has felt this collision.

By seeing and experiencing Ushiro shihan's nullifying "zero power" techniques and feeling zero-power in their own techniques when Ushiro shihan extended his ki through them, many of the camp participants realized just how much they had been depending on strength in their efforts to make the techniques martially effective.

Many people called Ushiro shihan's instruction "eye-opening", "innovative", and "new territory". However, a way of training that would promise future progress along this same path was not so clear. The inspiration, and the accompanying uncertainty put us at the crossroads, and the beginning of a revolution in the way we think about training. Our challenge, then, is to take this inspiration and turn it into action. Isn't this the start of true shugyo (training)?


Nuetralization of opponent, nullifying of power, zero power, (I call it zero balance) floating,etc.
I realize it is just a repeat of much that has been said on these boards over the years. Maybe the fact of "who" is finally saying it publicly and is now pursuing it himself will get more folks attention, and interest them in finding instructors capable of both doing and teaching it.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2006 at 08:31 AM.
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