creation of new techniques

I think that's it, no one told me about the concepts.

A question for the folks here. On the occasions when a new technique or variation presents itself to you, do you work it through in your head from the nage or the uke role? I realized tonight that I usually envision techniques from the uke side of things. If I can imagine what my body is supposed to do as uke I can figure out what nage's body has to do to fit in around uke to make the tech. happen.

It's late.... does that make any sense

Bronson

Sometimes I work out a new idea by visualizing myself as nage. I've never done it from the viewpoint of uke. And then there are the times i did something new without thinking about it all and had to reconstruct it afterward.

By new, I don't mean I created a waza new to aikido, just new to me. Something I hadn't done yet nor seen yet from any of my teachers but which is actually implicit in the body of existing aikido technique.

I've been doing Aikido for a measly 12 years but I have accidentally "created" a few new techniques. Once when doing a demo, the uke backhanded me with a hammer fist and I instinctively blocked it and then to keep him from hitting me with the other hand, I grabbed his fist and ran in a circle behind him. I learned that he couldn't get away as he was helplessly spinning in a circle following his own hand. I then turned it into sankyo and stopped and the uke ran right into the sankyo! Everybody clapped but it was an accident and unplanned. I have used that many times since against a slashing attack and it works every time.

As I mentioned a Sumi Otoshi deviant, I thought up another one.
Of course it's stil katatedori, the technique I'd think would be called "Sumi Otoshi Koshinage Kotegaeshi". And there's jsut Sumi Otoshi Koshinage or just Sumi Otoshi Kotegaeshi. Please try
this, and please tell your dojo about my techniques. Maybe someday I could show the readers of this thread. And I remind you to post any new techniques, if you pay attention to your mistakes,
and practice them to be an actual technique. You adults have more time & some of you may ahave a little fame I hope to have soon, so if you THINK UP (or practice) a Sumi Otoshi variant before me, it's yours (pre existing Sumi Otoshi [Shomenuchi Sumi Otoshi,
Munetsuki Sumi Otoshi, etc.] doesn't count)
.

Jorge Garcia wrote: I've been doing Aikido for a measly 12 years but I have accidentally "created" a few new techniques. Once when doing a demo, the uke backhanded me with a hammer fist and I instinctively blocked it and then to keep him from hitting me with the other hand, I grabbed his fist and ran in a circle behind him. I learned that he couldn't get away as he was helplessly spinning in a circle following his own hand. I then turned it into sankyo and stopped and the uke ran right into the sankyo! Everybody clapped but it was an accident and unplanned. I have used that many times since against a slashing attack and it works every time.

Wow. I thought you were gonna refer to a messed Kotegaeshi Ura.
I can see Jujinage in there .

Sean, these are not new combinations of waza. They've been around a long time. They certainly aren't the personal property of anyone...

Good way to keep your eyes open though. You'll see a lot of things like this as you train.

Best,
Ron (personally partial to almost any arm control combined with koshinage / kesa giri...ikkajo, nikkajo, sumi otoshi, jujinage, etc. The most dangerous combination I've found is leg sweep / koshinage combined with shihonage...calls for some spectacular ukemi...kids, don't try this at home)

Sean, I ran across this article, and found it interesting that Bernie Lau started training at 14. Thought you might enjoy it...

Best,
Ron

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1101.htm

Ron Tisdale wrote: Sean, these are not new combinations of waza. They've been around a long time. They certainly aren't the personal property of anyone... Good way to keep your eyes open though. You'll see a lot of things like this as you train. Best, Ron (personally partial to almost any arm control combined with koshinage / kesa giri...ikkajo, nikkajo, sumi otoshi, jujinage, etc. The most dangerous combination I've found is leg sweep / koshinage combined with shihonage...calls for some spectacular ukemi...kids, don't try this at home)

You sure? The EXACT, PARTICULAR one I mentioned, already existant?

Once I was discussing the subject of the relative sizes of technique "portfolios" (if you will) in different arts, with a buddy of mine who does karate, and he told me one of those stories that sound like they are out of a badly dubbed wuxia movie:
A cat and a fox were sitting in the woods talking. The fox kept telling the cat about how many different ways of escaping his predators he knew, while the cat only knew one.... the fox laughed at him but all of a sudden a pack of wolves appeared and while the cat instinctively climbed up a tree to safety, the fox took too long deciding what to do and was eaten by the wolves....

The story may be made up by my friend or his sensei, or even irrelevant to the discussion the way others see it, but this is how I view keiko anyway: concentrate on the basics until they are second nature, then you can start to play around....
from the perspective of someone who is somewhere in the middle (not 15 years old or gokyu, neither 40 or judan (remotely)), I can see both sides. I remember being new to aikido, being very excited and trying to see what I could do or "come up with". Once I got to see a little more (hint: I started going to seminars) I realized what a wealth of motions and techniques there are, how simple some are, yet I never thought of them... then I started trying to see what I can do, still, but a little less thinking about "coming up" with new stuff myself...

just my two cents (sorry about the length)
Tom

Sean Haeussinger wrote: Please try this, and please tell your dojo about my techniques. Maybe someday I could show the readers of this thread.... .

I think you'll find that this thread is about the most seriously you'll ever be taken regarding your 'inventions'. You are simply barking up the wrong tree. Aikido is a tradition-based martial art that takes a long time to absorb and understand. It isn't a forum in which one can be a brash, creative young hotshot and gain any credibility or ego-recognition. Hardly anyone who has done Aikido for more than a year is going to have any idea where you are coming from or any interest in what you have "invented", as it is irrelevant to them.

To make a musical analogy, Aikido is maybe similar to learning classical piano or a type of traditional jazz that requries a heavy classical background. You barely know how to play scales and yet you expect to be hailed as a pioneer and genius. If you are looking for an art with wide-open creative possibilities and the chance for ego-recognition without first putting in decades of hard work, you need to find something more similar to punk or garage rock.

If I believed there was a such a thing as technique and I'd invented a new one, I'd keep it to myself. You can invent a million and one techniques and be the best in the world at performing them but if you fail to grasp the underlying principles of those techniques then you still wont have learned much.
There are pleantly of techniques to learn already, add in the henka and there are even more and each one will give you an insight into
an aspect of the nature of Aikido.
Worry more about developing that insight than creating new manifestations of Aikido because you're just making life more difficult for yourself. The more techniques you "create" the more aspects you have to come to terms with, some of which will have already been demonstrated by other techniques.
I can understand that you look at Aikido and say "There isn't a specific technique to cover x". It's true there isn't a technique for every situation. We'd end up being a martial version of Hinduism, with 380 million different techniques covering all possible aspects of the principle of Aiki in every situation. The beauty of Aikido is that with a meer eleven basic techniques you can get close to understanding the principle of Aiki and once you understand Aiki you have a solution for all situations.

If not I want my money back.

Sean Haeussinger wrote: You sure? The EXACT, PARTICULAR one I mentioned, already existant?

Pretty sure, yeah, but that ain't the point. Others have explained the point pretty well I think.

In any case,
Best,
Ron

I usually really hate to just post quotes...but this one made me think of this thread.

By Ueshiba Sensei;

The real purpose of the martial arts must be to purge oneself of petty ambitions and desire, to obtain control of one's own character.

Best,
Ron (still working on my own character at 45...let me know if I ever get close)

Ron I thought you were already a character

Hey John! How's the crew? Please tell all I said hi...

Best,
Ron

*shouts*

DOGPILE ON RON TISDALE!!!

.... okay back on topic.

I have to agree with others -- my approach to aikido is not based on learning a set number of techniques, but by training body mechanics to the point that you move yourself in a specific way and techniques just sorta happen.

Hi all,

Naturally, I agree with Budd. After training for a while, techniques just sort of happen. I've had a few "ah ha!" moments over the years that have proven the value of my aikido training.

The first was a simple demonstration after class when my instructor was talking to a prospective student. I had been training only for a year or so. Knowing that I had studies TKD, he asked me to prevent him from punching me using what I knew of TKD. He punched rapidly, and I was able to block a few, but it wasn't long before his punches were landing. Then he asked me to "do aikido." The only thing I could think of was to tenkan several times in a row, but that was effective in preventing him from punching me for longer than when I tried to block.

My point is simply that even after just a year of training, I had gained the ability to apply at least one fundamental concept spontaneously -- and in a situation not exactly like in practice.

A year or so later, I threw and pinned (without injury) a friend who was high on drugs by using a "technique" that we had never practiced. Just this past summer (five years later), my training as uke came in handy when I was able to wrap up and control the center of the same guy. No pin, no technique, but good control of his center -- and no injuries. That altercation led to treatment and rehab.

The thing is, I'm not that spectacular or talented. Just ask Budd, Ron, and John, they've trained with me. I strongly feel that the typical aikdo training method of introducing specific scenarios (grab my wrist with your hand on the same side and I will do ikkyo ura) as small kata leads very well to a greater understanding of the fundamental principles.

From that perspective, I see nothing wrong with a 13 year old trying to work out techniques for situations outside of the normal training regime. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that he's invented a new kata rather than a new technique. With practice, time, and a little bit of introspection, that kind of experimentation could lead to a good understanding of fundamental principles.

I'm done with my rambling.

Regards,

-Drew

Hi Drew! I agree...trying things out is a good thing...I think I mentioned that to him at least once. The ego thing...well...he'll probably grow out of it sooner than I will!

Best,
Ron (miss ya, ya big lug!)

ps, Budd! look out behind you!

Drew!! (Great to hear from you -- family is well, I hope?)

I agree that it's good to have trained responses to specific situations.

Kinda to one of your points, I think there's a 'danger' in the paired 'kata' approach (in aikido) -- in that often there's a Card A into Slot B response type of methodology, rather than focusing on the core body skills (or fundamental movements) that are the building blocks of any 'technique'.

Where as you mention controlling the center, I've met folks that (taking ikkyo as an example) worry so much about controlling the arm they've grabbed, they've basically set themselves up for a counter (depending on the ettiquette of the situation - sometimes you're in a position to show them this or have it shown to you) -- precisely because they are in the mindset of "HE GRABBED MY WRIST AND I WILL NOW THROW HIM".

I like both of your examples (sounds like excellent aikido to me). As for anyone asking about training with you, I think you bring good energy and a great attitude to anyplace you visit and I'm always happy to be on the mat with you.

Best/Budd

P.S. How the heck did Ron Tisdale get behind me (must be that Pilates Ninjutsu class he's taking) . . .

HI Ron,

Yeah, well, the ego thing... I look back on my training at times when I thought I had pretty well "gotten it" and just sort of laugh at myself. It seems to happen every year and a half, and then something happens to remind me that I've still got a lot to learn. Now, at least, I can recognize the pattern.

Regards,

I hope my knowledge can branch off to a new style. I bet I can make up techniques against kicks, but keep it within Aikido.
Yesterday on open mat, I tried Ikkyo with a straight kick.

That's already been done.

Sorry,

Bronson

Bronson Diffin wrote: That's already been done. Sorry, Bronson

Ikkyo from a kick. Which style of Aikido?