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Old 10-22-2006, 12:41 AM   #1
SeanHaeussinger2
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creation of new techniques

Hello, I am a 13 year old gokyu, and in my training, I've learned the concept of Aikido, and not just the techniques. I've also thought
to train with fake guns at the same time. But since I can't, I'd have to train with pre-existing attacks, like Ushiro Kubishime for some guy hold one hostage. I've been devising a technique to disarm a weapon w/o a pin. I don't have the resources to show the technique right now, but I hope to show this technique in the future.
Please be ready with etymology for Aikido techniques. Please post of your new techniques, also.
 
Old 10-22-2006, 03:11 AM   #2
Aristeia
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Re: creation of new techniques

My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
 
Old 10-22-2006, 02:11 PM   #3
markwalsh
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Re: creation of new techniques

Aikido is principles not tricks so infinite techniques.

EG, Taught a "sleaze" class the other day for fun, and because the girls had had some dirt-bags tried to touch them up. Showed sankyo from arm around shoulder, yonkyo from hand on knee, kotegaeshi from ass pinch. Hilarious.

Always doing new stuff by mistake in randori - just happens.

Footage of O Sensei shows that he was very creative, never doing exactly the same thing twice - so aikido is always new stuff. Basic kata most important still though I think, as dojos that just do creative aikido are rubbish in my experience.
 
Old 10-23-2006, 05:53 AM   #4
kokyu
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
Always doing new stuff by mistake in randori - just happens.
I agree... and then someone asks, can you show that again? And because it was done on the spur of the moment, I just can't get it to work again
 
Old 10-23-2006, 06:42 AM   #5
ian
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Definately good to explore different applications. I presume the new technique is a variation on something else.

I was actually thinking myself of the best way to disarm someone with a knife. And practically I think its best with 2 people. The first person (the 'target' of the attack), just knocks the knife arm away whilst moving out of the way and tries to pin/restarin the knife arm whilst the second person comes from behind and chokes the knife weilder (jugular vein constriction).

I was watching some hand gun evasion on youtube in self-defence classes but many of these ended up with the person having permanent hearing damage (the gun could be discharged right next to the head!)

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
 
Old 10-23-2006, 02:10 PM   #6
DonMagee
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?
I agree and disagree, as times change so do the publics outlook on fighting. In the 1800's you might of had lots of people who fancied fighting as boxing. Because of this how an attack will attack you will change based on the area you live, the ethnic type of the attacker, age of the attacker, skill level and training of the attacker. Because of this I belive combat arts are ment to evolve. However most people can not seperate tradition and history from fighting. Thus they spend time learning how to defend against swords and guys in armor, when their prime targets are guys in baggy pants with a gat or a shank.

However, I do agree that most people's inventions tend to be over complicated less effective techniques. You are much better off training the basics then you are inventing long winded senario's for self defense. At the same time, you should be open to trying new things and developing your own style.

Sport arts do this because they are fighting everyday. They are forced to learn new concepts and techniques because the competition is changing. You have bjj guys doing great, then wrestlers come in and dominate with ground and pound, then guys learn good standup and start dominating, then someone blends some wrestling/bjj and starts dominating so everyone focuses on that. The sport changes. Does this reflect actual combat on the street? Sure it does! Have you ever seen guys box in the street full of beer and pride? I have. Have you ever seen a ground and pound attack from high school kids? I have. Have you ever seen two guys square off with their friends around cheering them on, leading to a girly wrestling match? Sport fighting represents one major branch of street fighting. Male ego combat. That is 1 on 1 attacks that tend to happen around bars, in schools, and between guys who like the same girl. But that is another debate all together.

Back on topic, the simplest things are always the best when it comes to training and self defense. You better not try to trade punches with a guy if you have a weak guard and jab. You better not try your crazy throw, armbar, neck snap, death preassure point attack if you have bad footwork and bad clinch skills. You better not try to wrist lock that guy if you havn't trained entering properly. I do not recomend trying a reverse omaplata if you havn't spent time on basic ground position and base. I see a lot of fights won by the most basic of techniques. Jab, Hook, clinch, Upper cut, etc. Or in judo, one or two basic throws such as osoto gari.

So anyways, work on your basics, it will serve you better. And besides most new techniques are just a bunch of basics scripted together into a silly long chain anyways.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 10-24-2006, 07:17 AM   #7
ian
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I... I do agree that most people's inventions tend to be over complicated less effective techniques
I completely agree. The difficulty with a 'new' technique (not sure I believe there really are such things) is i. that it takes alot of practise to do well and ii. it needs to be tested for combat effectiveness.

There are all sorts of unpredictable things which occur, so no technique can ever be perfect. Techniques developed in e.g. aikido, do have some field testing (through the samurai) and tend therefore to be somewhat 'reliable' - but even then, it depends how you apply it

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
 
Old 10-24-2006, 09:47 AM   #8
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: creation of new techniques

If you actually had the skill, knowledge and experience to successfully invent new techniques, I think your sensei would have promoted you beyond 5th kyu by now. There is a difference between a new technique and a new application, or an improvisation that isn't clearly any particular technique. Aikido has a limited curriculum in terms of the number of attacks and techniques on purpose - my understanding is that O'Sensei rejected the introduction of new attacks and techniques to the curriculum many times.

I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.
 
Old 10-24-2006, 09:23 PM   #9
Martin Ruedas
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Sean Haeussinger wrote:
Hello, I am a 13 year old gokyu, and in my training, I've learned the concept of Aikido, and not just the techniques. I've also thought
to train with fake guns at the same time. But since I can't, I'd have to train with pre-existing attacks, like Ushiro Kubishime for some guy hold one hostage. I've been devising a technique to disarm a weapon w/o a pin. I don't have the resources to show the technique right now, but I hope to show this technique in the future.
Please be ready with etymology for Aikido techniques. Please post of your new techniques, also.
Hi Sean. You're still young in age and in rank, so there's more to learn up ahead in your training. You might find out that its already there. Just continue your training.
 
Old 10-25-2006, 05:57 AM   #10
ian
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.
Thats a bit harsh - I think its always useful to reflect on these things such as new applications or new techniques just to stimulate a wider variety of responses (though of course, you only ever need one technique; the one that works )

I'm sure you're just like me Kev, old and cynical, but I still remember the early days when everything was new.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
 
Old 10-26-2006, 01:37 AM   #11
SeanHaeussinger2
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?
Particularly in guns (some of us [not me] get the idea of short range weapons), I'm trying to produce new techniques against guns (training to dodge a bullet included where possible). Too much in swords & whatnot. The most important anti gun technique would be against Ushiro Kubishime, kind of like in the movies, "do as I say, or the kid gets it!" *Kid does Ushiro Kubishime Ikkyo*.
Plus, I got the idea from a video I saw. One of the clips had a guy pointing at another guy, the nage did what LOOKS LIKE Sumi Otoshi, except with takedown.
 
Old 10-26-2006, 01:39 AM   #12
SeanHaeussinger2
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If you actually had the skill, knowledge and experience to successfully invent new techniques, I think your sensei would have promoted you beyond 5th kyu by now. There is a difference between a new technique and a new application, or an improvisation that isn't clearly any particular technique. Aikido has a limited curriculum in terms of the number of attacks and techniques on purpose - my understanding is that O'Sensei rejected the introduction of new attacks and techniques to the curriculum many times.

I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.
But I AM 5th Kyu, which in the kid's class at the dojo I goto, it's orange belt. Also, I'm not quite an expert (at least I know such, unlike some others), I still have a grasp of what Aikido is supposed to be about. Throwing the uke with his/her own energy.
Also incorperates joint locks & pins. And well, when I get hurt, I endure, as would be ganbatte.

Last edited by SeanHaeussinger2 : 10-26-2006 at 01:45 AM.
 
Old 10-26-2006, 07:06 AM   #13
Mathias Lee
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Re: creation of new techniques

I think everyoen is being much to hard on Sean. Noones aikido is perfect, as if it was we'd all be 10th Dan's. I've always been told aikido is the art of the individual, because you use the moves that work for you. I always find kaiten nage hard because I'm smaller than average, It's not impossible but there are much more effective mvoes for me to use. Is Sean finds his own technique, even if it is a less effective version of Ikkyo, for him it might be much more effective as it incorporates what he knows.
A lot of Aikido is about Takemusu, spontanious birth of new technique, so it is possible to create new technique just a lot of what people create is based so much on previous principles it's undisernable.
So keep showing a willingness to learn Sean, and don't be put off by anyone who thinks they know more than you... unless they're 10th Dan, and even then there's probably gonna be a lot of debate over what they say!
 
Old 10-26-2006, 07:23 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: creation of new techniques

There are some good thoughts on Takemusu Aiki on some other threads just now. Common agreement seems to be that it occurs after quite some time of regular training in ... the basics. I don't think we have any 10th dans posting, but there are some people here who might have more of a clue than a 5th kyu. So if I were in Sean's shoes...I would listen to those who have gone before. They might actually know something.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 10-28-2006, 02:27 AM   #15
SeanHaeussinger2
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Matthew Edward Lee wrote:
I think everyoen is being much to hard on Sean. Noones aikido is perfect, as if it was we'd all be 10th Dan's. I've always been told aikido is the art of the individual, because you use the moves that work for you. I always find kaiten nage hard because I'm smaller than average, It's not impossible but there are much more effective mvoes for me to use. Is Sean finds his own technique, even if it is a less effective version of Ikkyo, for him it might be much more effective as it incorporates what he knows.
A lot of Aikido is about Takemusu, spontanious birth of new technique, so it is possible to create new technique just a lot of what people create is based so much on previous principles it's undisernable.
So keep showing a willingness to learn Sean, and don't be put off by anyone who thinks they know more than you... unless they're 10th Dan, and even then there's probably gonna be a lot of debate over what they say!
It's OK, I'm learning, and also knowing of others' opinions. That's all that matters.
 
Old 10-31-2006, 03:00 AM   #16
SeanHaeussinger2
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Re: creation of new techniques

When I messed up Katate Sumi Otoshi, I discovered that just before the throw, I could just perform Iriminage, instead of the whole Sumi Otoshi. Of course it'd have to be performed on the Katate hand, free hand around the head. And does it still count as Sumi Otoshi if the free arm pushes by the uke's neck or chest?
 
Old 10-31-2006, 08:43 AM   #17
Ketsan
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Re: creation of new techniques

Excuse me for stating the obvious, since no doubt everyone here is intimately familiar with O-Sensei's writing and is widely read. But.
At least he's thinking outside of the kata. Most Aikidoka are content to improve their kata and they go up through the ranks as their kata gets better without realising that the kata isn't Aikido. They'll say "This is an Aikido technique and this isn't" not realising that Aikido has no techniques.
You can't be taught Aikido; you can only be taught a series of forms that will simulate Aikido but it's up to you to make the intuitive leap.
Then we get into the realms of knowlege, rank and who knows better than who without realising that firstly that rank and knowlege only have a very general relationship and secondly that rank is based on something other than understanding of Aikido per se, which being an intuitive thing is very hard to measure.
For all the put downs about his rank and age if he keeps seeking out direct experience and studies his kata properly he'll be far better than 90% of Aikidoka in a few years. It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place, he had that rare quality, the ability to wonder "what if?" and I don't mean the "Yeah, but he could just do this" kind of what if I mean the kind of what if that comes with a desire to understand and improve.
Aikidoka could learn a lot from O-Sensei. Which should be something taken for granted really but I'm amazed at just how many people, high ranked people, will assert their supposed superiority over lower grades by contradicting him.

Page 36 of the larger version (not the pocket one) of the the art of peace is what I based most of this post on, incase you're interested.

Last edited by Ketsan : 10-31-2006 at 08:46 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2006, 08:57 AM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place, he had that rare quality, the ability to wonder "what if?" and I don't mean the "Yeah, but he could just do this" kind of what if I mean the kind of what if that comes with a desire to understand and improve.
Can you tell me what you base this (run on) sentence on? You say he was never "in the box"...can you clarify what you mean by that, and in what way he was different from the clarification? As far as I've read, he had a teacher (a notoriously strict one) and studied what that teacher presented to him assiduoulsy for at least 5 years. Even living with the teacher for a time, in more than one place. Budo was what he devoted himself to, and he wasn't 15 either. And that wasn't the first martial art he'd studied, more like the 3rd...again, not much like our eager young beaver above at all.

Quote:
Aikidoka could learn a lot from O-Sensei. Which should be something taken for granted really but I'm amazed at just how many people, high ranked people, will assert their supposed superiority over lower grades by contradicting him.
Contradicting who? Ueshiba Sensei? The poster above? I'll have to re-read the thread...I don't see what you are talking about. I see experienced people kindly letting a relatively young, inexperienced person know some things that might help him. I see no supposed superiority...it is just a simple fact that someone who has been training 10 years (regardless of rank), in more than one art, who is 30 to 45, would be a worthy person to listen to if you are 15, and new to an art. No big deal though...this won't be the first time someone young ignores advice from an elder, and it won't be the last. Chances are, our young friend will survive and learn on his own quite well in the long run.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-31-2006 at 09:01 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:23 AM   #19
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place,
I would completely disagree with this. O-sensei spent plenty of time "inside the box". It's just that the vast majority of information we have about him comes from the last half of his life. In the very early 1930's when he was still teaching Daito Ryu, he had already trained longer than the vast majority of the folks reading this forum.

He started training when he was young. he had a VERY solid base as a foundation for his later development of Aikido. There isn't anyone in Aikido who is any good who has just gone off in his own direction before he had understood the essentials. The "box" exists for a reason. The box represents the inherited collective knowledge passed down by those who have gone before. Before you leave the box, you need to understand what is in the box. The idea that O-sensei did not go through this process is incorrect and represents a misleading model for those coming along behind.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:48 AM   #20
Ketsan
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Can you tell me what you base this (run on) sentence on? You say he was never "in the box"...can you clarify what you mean by that, and in what way he was different from the clarification? As far as I've read, he had a teacher (a notoriously strict one) and studied what that teacher presented to him assiduoulsy for at least 5 years. Even living with the teacher for a time, in more than one place. Budo was what he devoted himself to, and he wasn't 15 either. And that wasn't the first martial art he'd studied, more like the 3rd...again, not much like our eager young beaver above at all.
I've not got time to mooch through books at the moment I'd have a look later if this doesn't answer your question.
When I say he was never in the box I was refering to the fact that he had at least one very strict teacher, presumably the others weren't exactly easy going and yet at the end of it all he comes out with something new, Aikido. Now from what I've read it's not surprising that someone as spirtual and as dedicated to budo as Ueshiba was could have just suddently decided over night that he'd go off in a new and radical direction, he must have been mulling the idea over for decades potentially. So all through that strict training the nucleus of the philosophy that became Aikido must have been there, maybe even as far back as age 15.
I wasn't saying that our young friend is another Ueshiba yet or that it's certain he ever will be. I was just pointing out that his attitude of curiousity and experimentation rather than being a negative thing is actually quite healthy. That's not to say he shouldn't study diligently in a more conventional sence like other Aikidoka, I'm saying the combination of the two could end up making him something a bit special in the long run. He is only 15 after all, I'm sure if Ueshiba had of spouted off that he was going to create a Budo based on harmony and love at 15 he'd of recived a few weird comments.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Contradicting who? Ueshiba Sensei? The poster above? I'll have to re-read the thread...I don't see what you are talking about. I see experienced people kindly letting a relatively young, inexperienced person know some things that might help him. I see no supposed superiority...it is just a simple fact that someone who has been training 10 years (regardless of rank), in more than one art, who is 30 to 45, would be a worthy person to listen to if you are 15, and new to an art. No big deal though...this won't be the first time someone young ignores advice from an elder, and it won't be the last. Chances are, our young friend will survive and learn on his own quite well in the long run.

Best,
Ron
I said at the begining of my post it's obvious to pretty much everyone which was a polite way of excluding everyone except the post I was aiming at which reminds me a little too much of some of the attitudes I have to put up with in my training. Should have been more specific there, my fault.
 
Old 10-31-2006, 10:14 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Re: creation of new techniques

Sorry, even after reading your explanation, I'm with George on this one.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-31-2006, 10:19 AM   #22
Ketsan
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Re: creation of new techniques

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I would completely disagree with this. O-sensei spent plenty of time "inside the box". It's just that the vast majority of information we have about him comes from the last half of his life. In the very early 1930's when he was still teaching Daito Ryu, he had already trained longer than the vast majority of the folks reading this forum.

He started training when he was young. he had a VERY solid base as a foundation for his later development of Aikido. There isn't anyone in Aikido who is any good who has just gone off in his own direction before he had understood the essentials. The "box" exists for a reason. The box represents the inherited collective knowledge passed down by those who have gone before. Before you leave the box, you need to understand what is in the box. The idea that O-sensei did not go through this process is incorrect and represents a misleading model for those coming along behind.
Umm, we're not talking about the same box. Yes he did his training like everyone else, there is no way around that, it has to be done. But the mindset that he had during his training was obviously different (outside of the box) from your average student because he took his knowledge in a radical new direction.

So what I'm saying is Sean still has to do all the kata and study it as hard as anyone else to get that foundation but if he keeps a mindset that asks questions and pushes things in a new direction he'll do well.

Does that clarify things?
 
Old 10-31-2006, 11:00 AM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: creation of new techniques

If that was all you'd said to begin with, I can't see that anyone would think it a big deal...but the inaccuracies about Ueshiba, the attacks on rank (not that rank doesn't deserve a good attack now and again), and the generalized attack on the posters in the thread gave quite a different impression than

"Sean still has to do all the kata and study it as hard as anyone else to get that foundation but if he keeps a mindset that asks questions and pushes things in a new direction he'll do well."

I understand better with the caveats you've added since...but perhaps writing a little clearer at the get go and not casting aspersions would serve your purpose better (in spite of being frustrated with things on your local mat -- you could do a seperate post about that).

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-31-2006, 01:30 PM   #24
Alec Corper
 
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Re: creation of new techniques

Sometimes I get a bit depressed. I have obviously been doing this Budo thing all wrong. After nearly 16 years of aikido and 14 years of other MA I'm still trying to get the basics down and there are 15 year old gokyus inventing new techniques. Must be time to quit!

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 10-31-2006, 01:32 PM   #25
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: creation of new techniques

maybe you've just learned the techniques and not the concepts ;-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
 

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