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Old 10-21-2006, 11:42 PM   #51
tedehara
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

The only reason I know about Toyoda Sensei is because he was based in Chicago. I have no idea about the others.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:49 AM   #52
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Hi Wayne,

As someone who has lived in Japan since 1993 and is fluent enough to have worked as a translator, I`m gonna have to disagree with you. What I read in the interview are the words of a very bitter man. Of course, this is just my opinion. Again I will recommend Prof. Goldsbury's writings.

BTW a number of years ago, there was a funnyt article in ATM about Toyoda Sensei in which he detailed his version of getting kicked out. He taught classes in Hawaii and I think in Texas and was told that this was against Ki Society International bylaws. He laughed about this because he was the one who wrote the International bylaws as he was a recent law school graduate when Tohei Sensei broke away.

Charles
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:32 AM   #53
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Thanks for bringing up the ATM article; I remember it, and it is a good story to know, because it describes the "Pandora's Box" phenomenon perfectly.

In gassho,
Mark
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Old 10-26-2006, 04:01 AM   #54
kironin
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi Wayne,
BTW a number of years ago, there was a funnyt article in ATM about Toyoda Sensei in which he detailed his version of getting kicked out. He taught classes in Hawaii and I think in Texas and was told that this was against Ki Society International bylaws. He laughed about this because he was the one who wrote the International bylaws as he was a recent law school graduate when Tohei Sensei broke away.

Charles

Much the same story he repeated many times and told to me wih a straight face while I was eating dinner with him in Texas. However I know different from many sources and its not hard to tell when somone is blowing smoke up your back end.

Toyoda's leaving did not just involve problems with KNK HQ and it certainly was not because he violated his own bylaws. The story is complicated and it's pretty much ancient history at this point. I certain that those left that I know are not interested in dredging it back up.

However Gaku Homma proves once again he loves telling a good yarn more than the truth.

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Old 10-26-2006, 05:03 AM   #55
kironin
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
and Roy Suenaka explaining in Complete Aikido why he left Tohei. Would you have any more information about the reasons for the departure of Koretoshi Maruyama, Shiohira, and Imaizumi? They have been reticent, not having been raised in Chicago.
Suenaka left pretty early and what he wrote in his book is a very distorted picture through his own lens which he was entitled to do since it was his book but it doesn't make it reality. take it with a big block of salt.

Shiohira was never really with the program and pretty much doing his own thing from day one. so when taigi were introduced as a change he was never totally on board with it. He's doing his own thing, which the last time I took a class from him was great stuff.

Imaizumi wanted to make major changes and totally reorganize the US Ki Society in the mid 1980's an because that was turned down along with some other issues concerning territorial disputes that complicate the story he resigned and went back to Japan for a while. Then came back to New York and started his own thing which probably reflects more the direction he would have liked things to go in KNK. I am not sure all the extra Itto Ryu Kenjutsu et al and MSR jodo etc. would have fit into the KNK, but it's great that he is working on that.

probably Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei is the one example where there is a strong case for being poorly treated. He was very much loved outside of Japan as a great teacher and a humble man. He was not a yes man. He was president of the Ki Society and the official successor to Tohei Sensei who was supposedly retired. The irony of repeating history in Shinichi Tohei now officially playing the role of head of the Ki Society ten years later is pretty thick.

and you left out Rod Kobayashi, Seidokan founder.
and several others.

The thing that is lost in this though, that several these teachers have gone on to form interesting organizations reflecting their own interpretation. Granted, some of it questionable, but some of it quite wonderful. Practiving with them has certainly always been interesting for me.

Another thing that gets lost, is that there are still many very talented teachers in the Ki Society with decades of experience training with Tohei Sensei. Some just don't have the high profile. But they do exhibit powerful aikido and deep knowledge to share. One of my favorites has been training fifty years.

====

it was rare and lucky for the Aikikai in the 1950's and 1960's to have had the synergy of both a great charismatic teacher with high talent in Koichi Tohei Sensei who could travel abroad and a great administrator in Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei working together for the same goals for over 20 years.

change is inevitable
time moves on

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Old 10-26-2006, 05:30 AM   #56
crbateman
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Good points, Craig. Folks like to bring up all the departures from KNK over the years, when much the same has happened within Aikikai. When people have fundamental differences with an organization to which they belong, there are really only four options from which to choose: 1) Hang around griping and try to undermine the status quo (very bad show). 2) Hold back your personal feelings and let the organization do as it sees fit. 3) Go elsewhere and join another group more to your liking. 4) Start your own organization. Of these, only the first should be considered dishonorable. There are far more examples of those who have made wiser choices and opted for one of the other three solutions. They should not be looked down upon, as they have followed their hearts. This is how change happens, and as you say, change is inevitable. What is NOT inevitable is that everyone respects the rights of individuals to choose their own paths. So much the pity. It's easy to get along with people who feel exactly as you do. The real skill is in harmonizing with and accepting those who don't.
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Old 10-26-2006, 04:45 PM   #57
Fred Little
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I am not sure all the extra Itto Ryu Kenjutsu et al and MSR jodo etc. would have fit into the KNK, but it's great that he is working on that.
Did you mean SMR jo?

SMR = Shindo Muso Ryu Jo

MSR - Muso Shinden Ryu Iai

Straight or hybridized for use within an aikido curriculum?

I ask because I don't know.

FL
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:06 AM   #58
kironin
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

yeah SMR jodo I believe though it may be a mix of things.

easy for me to mistype it as MSR since I do MSR Iai

from what I have experienced at their seminars, It is pretty separate from the aikido curriculum. The Jodo and kenjutsu are not hybridized into the aikido like some styles have done. Except I think they still they still do Ki Society's Jo kata #1 & #2 and bokken kata #1 and #2 on their kyu syllabus. The Aikido curriculum is pretty much straight from Tohei Sensei's Ki-Aikido playbook circa 1980's though Imaizumi Sensei has always retained a larger set of named techniques. At shodan, they simply add 15 Itto ryu kumidachi. More paired kata are required to be performed at nidan and so on.

I have to admit it's alway fun for me to play with their senior guys as stylistically we are on the exact same page. That may have something to do with my original teacher having done at least his first four dan ranks under Imaizumi Sensei. Not unusual for Imaizumi Sensei go through twenty techniques or more in a couple of hours. He checks them off as he goes and might even give you a handout listing what he did. Very organized. I like his explicit naming system. I think there there is some truth to the judo idea that giving every technique an explicit name aids retention.

Last edited by kironin : 10-27-2006 at 03:09 AM.

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Old 11-08-2006, 10:08 AM   #59
Mato-san
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

I will throw my 2 yen into the topic..... my opinion, I am entitled to it, is from what I see.....with Aikikai...it is more circular (very powerful and centred) Tohei aikido is powerful too, the skip, hop jump is good for creating distance and blending in a different kind of way, both have great attributes I believe. I am on the fence. But can appreciate both styles and Aikido in general.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:30 PM   #60
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

I'm a newbie to posting on forums, but in the spirit of the
Thanksgiving thread. which was the first I actually had the
courage to join in on, I'm grateful to all these teachers. When I
taught a small group at the local YMCA years ago I was asked,
"What do you teach?" I answered, "Whatever they'll learn."
I was thankful to have several ways of approaching the
techniques and did my best to find a way the particular
student could understand. Years ago I saw both Sensei
Tohei and Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba and each was a great
inspiration. My own teachers followed Second Doshu when the division occurred but later they
gave credit to Tohei Sensei too, especially for teaching
beginners....probably they meant the concept of Ki. His personality
and teaching methods contributed greatly to the introduction of
Aikido over here in the US. Second Doshu I remember had
a beautiful spirit and seem to truly believe in spreading Aikido,
offering it to the world. His Aikido was beautiful too.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:19 PM   #61
danj
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

I think what the Aikikai of today do so well is allow their respective Shihan to pursue the development of aikido in a mostly independent way. Contrast this to something like the Ki Society which is mostly the work of a single Shihan and is much more prescriptive

Thus is the Aikikai there is an expectation that freedoms emerge over time and with 3 generations to doshu to follow its maybe more palatable to stay with the wider organisation
In the latter environment (e.g. like Ki Society) I think it was/is more difficult for emerging Shihan to put their own personality into the art with its has a much more prescriptive practice, and thus must follow the 'culture of leaving' to form ones own organisation to do so.

Its pretty broad brush strokes of course...

dan

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Old 12-12-2010, 04:04 AM   #62
Shany
 
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Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai

Ueshiba's sons and grandsons follows the way.
Ueshiba and friends followed their heart & spirit.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:28 AM   #63
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Exactly!

My friends include Yoshinkan, Tomiki, AAA, Aikikai, etc. teachers and sniping at each other woukd be such a huge waste of time. We more in common than not.
These are my Aikido brothers.
After all most people I encounter think I mean some form of karate. The most common question is.
"is that like Tae Kwon Do ?"

As for this threads question. huh? For anything that someone loves you can be sure to find someone that hates it. Why tickle even two brain cells together about it. It's inevitable the more common something is to find someone who hates it.

Everyone find a path you enjoy and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Love it with a passion.
Sadly, there is no Aikido organisation in the world that brings all ryus together in unity.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:30 PM   #64
PhillyKiAikido
 
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post


Sadly, there is no Aikido organisation in the world that brings all ryus together in unity.
One Aikido organization? I doubt it and don't think it necessary.

Students from different schools hang out and learn from each other? I've seen more and more.

People pass, Aikido stays.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:40 PM   #65
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
Sadly, there is no Aikido organisation in the world that brings all ryus together in unity.
I've heard something about a guy named Frodo Baggins...

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