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Old 11-03-2006, 09:06 AM   #126
Mike Sigman
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Maybe that's why when I went to take ukemi I found there was none left, so I didn't get any.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:58 AM   #127
Mike Sigman
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
When Koichi Tohei did those all-night misogi sessions at Ichikukai dojo, then showed up to practice with Ueshiba, he was dead tired. Because he was so tired, he had to relax completely in order to practice. According to what he has written when he did that, he found that he could throw everyone easily. The only person in the dojo who could throw him was the founder. That was when he realized that the founder was "relaxed" all the time. It is this practice of "relax completely" that remains the core of all Ki Society training.
I wanted to throw my opinion in here, Ted, if you don't mind.

"Relax" is a strange word. One of the best quotes (that I agree with) for internal strength says that "Relax is like a snake; not like a bunny". The symbol of qi/ki in Asia is a snake, BTW, and it's an apt description of what someone with real ki/qi skills can feel like.

You cannot move and control your body from the center if you do not relax and let the body connect together like a snake, from the hara to the hands, from the hara to the feet. However, you must be conditioned or the connecting never happens. So first you relax and use no resistance. As you learn to use your ki and kokyu skills the resistance can go up slightly, gradually increasing. Someone who conditions with weight-training or other exercises where they use "normal strength" will never go anywhere in the development of this kind of power.

The point I'm trying to make is that Tohei's translated use of the term "relax" can be misleading. Yes, relax... but within defined parameters.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-03-2006, 11:03 AM   #128
Mato-san
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Again.....Amen

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 11-03-2006, 02:40 PM   #129
kironin
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The point I'm trying to make is that Tohei's translated use of the term "relax" can be misleading. Yes, relax... but within defined parameters.

My 2 cents.
Mike Sigman

Excellent Point!



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Old 11-03-2006, 02:54 PM   #130
kironin
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
I have to disagree here.
...
K. Tohei was able to gain this insight through misogi. Tesshu Yamaoka taught his students by beating the life out of them. He gave them continuous kenjutsu matches that lasted for days. Finally when the student became a zombie after endless beatings, Tesshu Sensei was able to see the student had learned the lesson of relax completely. The student would hold the shinai gently, since he had no energy to hold it tightly. He would move with mind and body coordination, since it is the most efficient way to move. This was traditional life and death training.

While misogi in the Ki Society is fun, I think you can still learn this lesson by its practice. You don't have to be beaten to death to learn it.

When K. Tohei joined Ueshiba's dojo, he was already a judo black belt. Normally, one could assume he would mention one of his judo teachers as significant. The fact that he mentions Ogura Sensei as the first of his three teachers shows the importance he placed on the practice of "relax completely".

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. From my own experience, I just have not seen that emphasis in training warrants putting Ogura Sensei on equal footing with Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamura. I don't think mention of him in a list in a translated book means as much as actually what training is.

It's been made quite clear to me by very senior people who should know that Tohei Sensei does not feel it's necessary for people to the things he did in the Ichikukai to learn the lesson about relaxation. I think there is an early story about Tohei coming from one from one of those three day misogi events at Ichikukai and because he was so tired he found a qualitative change in his aikido. You could imagine other scenarios to get in to that state and indeed Tohei Sensei mentions several situations in his experience that lead to the same insight. On the other hand, from day one we are training on elements directly taken from Ueshiba Sensei and Nakamura Sensei. And all the testing focuses on those elements also.

So for me Ogura Sensei just doesn't make the cut.
Just my opinion of course.

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