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Old 10-27-2006, 01:06 PM   #101
kironin
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
I do believe in Ki/Qi development but am not sure how relevent these demos are in terms of martial prowess.

That's a good point !

Which is why as a rule, I won't demonstrate this sort of stuff in a demonstration unless the context allows me to communicate to the audience what I am doing and I can get them to all stand up and participate and learn something.

but kind of think of it, does a choreographed routine of techniques often seen in martial arts demos really any more relevant in terms of martial prowess ?

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Old 10-27-2006, 01:16 PM   #102
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
However he wrote in The Way to Union with Ki that he had three teachers. The first one was Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo. Ogura Sensei was a top student of master swordsman Tesshu Yamaoka. He taught a strenuous form of misogi.
yes, true, but in terms of what is most stressed in training is I think it's clear the two most important are Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamure, no doubt about it.

bell misogi, etc. and most of what comes from the Ichikukai is generally described as voluntary and not seen as necessary training in Ki Society though the training is seen as beneficial to those wishing to do it.

Most students in Ki Society probably do bell misogi at most 1-2 times a year if they do it at all. A very small number may do it monthly in some places.

Last edited by kironin : 10-27-2006 at 01:21 PM.

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Old 10-27-2006, 04:42 PM   #103
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
yes, true, but in terms of what is most stressed in training is I think it's clear the two most important are Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamure, no doubt about it.

bell misogi, etc. and most of what comes from the Ichikukai is generally described as voluntary and not seen as necessary training in Ki Society though the training is seen as beneficial to those wishing to do it.

Most students in Ki Society probably do bell misogi at most 1-2 times a year if they do it at all. A very small number may do it monthly in some places.
Thanks for your reply about ki development exercises and ORE. I wanted to bring up the Ichikukai, but looks like Ted beat me to it. I was wondering how often other Ki Society dojos practiced bell misogi. We probably have about four big misogi training sessions a year at my dojo, I'm not sure how often it's done in individual classes but I know it's rare at best. I was wondering how typical it is for Ki Society dojo's to undertake this training, and and was thinking the fact that my sensei is Japanese influences the fact that we do bell misogi if it is generally as uncommon as you make it out to be.

And I couldn't agree more: the comparison between Cris Angel and Koichi Tohei is anything but flattering!
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:20 PM   #104
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

At our dojo, we welcome the New Year with bell misogi. Weeks prior to the event, we do a review and training so that folks wanting to attend specially the ones going for the first time, knows what to do and expect.

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Old 10-28-2006, 02:24 AM   #105
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

by the way, I love bell misogi.

nothing like the experience of a large group falling of people falling into sync and holding nothing back. It's as if the stone walls become a vibrating drum.


also nothing like starting the day of an aikido intensive in Seattle with water misgoi in a lake in February followed by ki breathing and ki meditation till steam is rising off of you. All before breakfast.
finish the day of aikido with bell misogi and sleep like a baby.

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Old 10-28-2006, 07:53 AM   #106
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
also nothing like starting the day of an aikido intensive in Seattle with water misgoi in a lake in February followed by ki breathing and ki meditation till steam is rising off of you. All before breakfast.
finish the day of aikido with bell misogi and sleep like a baby.
You maybe... Me, I'd pass out like a drunk...

Now all you gotta do is bring back the ol' pounding on the back with lumber while doing bell misogi!
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Old 10-28-2006, 06:56 PM   #107
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
yes, true, but in terms of what is most stressed in training is I think it's clear the two most important are Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamure, no doubt about it.

bell misogi, etc. and most of what comes from the Ichikukai is generally described as voluntary and not seen as necessary training in Ki Society though the training is seen as beneficial to those wishing to do it.

Most students in Ki Society probably do bell misogi at most 1-2 times a year if they do it at all. A very small number may do it monthly in some places.
I have to disagree here.

When Koichi Tohei did those all-night misogi sessions at Ichikukai dojo, then showed up to practice with Ueshiba, he was dead tired. Because he was so tired, he had to relax completely in order to practice. According to what he has written when he did that, he found that he could throw everyone easily. The only person in the dojo who could throw him was the founder. That was when he realized that the founder was "relaxed" all the time. It is this practice of "relax completely" that remains the core of all Ki Society training.

K. Tohei was able to gain this insight through misogi. Tesshu Yamaoka taught his students by beating the life out of them. He gave them continuous kenjutsu matches that lasted for days. Finally when the student became a zombie after endless beatings, Tesshu Sensei was able to see the student had learned the lesson of relax completely. The student would hold the shinai gently, since he had no energy to hold it tightly. He would move with mind and body coordination, since it is the most efficient way to move. This was traditional life and death training.

While misogi in the Ki Society is fun, I think you can still learn this lesson by its practice. You don't have to be beaten to death to learn it.

When K. Tohei joined Ueshiba's dojo, he was already a judo black belt. Normally, one could assume he would mention one of his judo teachers as significant. The fact that he mentions Ogura Sensei as the first of his three teachers shows the importance he placed on the practice of "relax completely".

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:07 AM   #108
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I would like to add my little words here.

My Sensei was a student of Toheisama for over a decade, and from what I gather with Ki like all things spiritual, you don`t harness it or stumble upon it, you don`t cheapen it with words....and how you view it is up to you.
It is not stressed in our dojo, but it exists and is often pointed out but not stressed.
I think Craig says it best early in the thread when he says "Sensei does not have more Ki than you, he just knows how to use it".

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:15 AM   #109
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
I think Craig says it best early in the thread when he says "Sensei does not have more Ki than you, he just knows how to use it".
Well, that's not strictly true. You can build up and increase your ki through proper exercises, etc. If you had your full quota and couldn't increase it, there would be no point in doing qigongs, misogi, etc., etc.

I remember the words (more or less) in Ellis' story relating the Chiba and Wang Xu Jin encounter. Wang told the young Chiba, "You have some ki... come back when you have more".

With practice your ki and the ability to use it increases. That should be obvious to anyone who knows what ki is and knows how to develop it.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:22 AM   #110
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Would you say that you build up ki, or that you begin to understand ki and were it is within yourself?
Is your opinion that ki is something you build, or something you always had and learn to nurture?
Everyone has an opinion, I want yours without statisics, and martial trivia.
Regards.
Mat

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:25 AM   #111
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Is your opinion that ki is something you build, or something you always had and learn to nurture?
I'm not Mike, but I would say both.

Quote:
Everyone has an opinion, I want yours without statisics, and martial trivia.
I think he just gave it to you.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:29 AM   #112
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

When you say something is not true...are you respecting others opinions....are you force feeding your own opinion...... are we trying to establish something here?
Are you correct? Am I wrong?
Where is the harmony?

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:31 AM   #113
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

yes ron he did

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:37 AM   #114
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Well, what he said was;

Quote:
Well, that's not strictly true.
In other words, there may be some truth to what you said, but there is another way of looking at it that may give you some benefits, because your statement did not encompass all of the truth.

As for not being harmonious, force feeding others, etc...your own statements seem to me to fit that definition more than Mike's...but that is just my opinion, and there is no particular reason you should take it too seriously. Think of it this way...someone went out of their way to give some advice...what do you care about the format? If there is value in it, take it...leave the value judgements for someone else. That way, how can you lose?

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:38 AM   #115
Mike Sigman
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
Would you say that you build up ki, or that you begin to understand ki and were it is within yourself?
Is your opinion that ki is something you build, or something you always had and learn to nurture?
Everyone has an opinion, I want yours without statisics, and martial trivia.
Well, let me take out the "forces" part of ki, the "jin/kokyu" things for a second, in order to make things clearer. [It's a justifiable thing to excerpt because you can build up Ki and not have any 'forces' skills, as was demonstrated when Tohei pushed over those monks to prove god-knows-what] If you take that part out, you're left with an ability within the fascia and autonomic muscle functions that is somewhat related to the way a horse can quiver it's flanks, etc. (there's more to it than that, but I'm simply hurrying to make a point so I'm oversimplifying). The Chinese view is that a pronounced ki development is something man used to have, but he evolved away from it, so you have to deliberately develop this vestigial ability that we all have.

So the vestigial ability is there in all people; stronger in some than in others ("hereditary qi"). Once you understand that, it should be obvious that if you know how to acquire this latent ability, you can revive it and even strengthen it. It's sort of like a system of the body that helps a lot, even in its vestigial state, when we're younger, but which atrophies with age and lack of use as we get older.

Since the Asians tossed in several separate-but-related body concepts under the umbrella-term of "ki/qi", the topic is more complex than is implied in my example, but generally what I said is true.

Weirdly, at least for me with my engineering background, a lot of folk-tale things like "auras", raising the testicles before combat, standing on one leg against a push, etc., etc., all turn out to be aspects of "ki", all under one roof. I've had enough of my previous pooh-pooh's come back to haunt me that I'm now willing to listen to any wild-goose tale and consider the possibility that at some time it may have been related to some practical function which is not apparent in the superficial story.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:42 AM   #116
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Being with Kanosama today and expressing my love to the god of mercy in a ritual that takes place once every 33 years.....I am feeling a little mercy here. Maybe I will see you again when I am on your level.
Peace

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:45 AM   #117
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I have got to say...that was a heart felt post Mike.

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:46 AM   #118
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Nothing sarcastic, it was felt.

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:49 AM   #119
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Yes again Ron....nice work....I appreciate the harmony

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:50 AM   #120
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Kinda feel like you are giving me an irimi nage...but I appreciate it

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:50 AM   #121
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote:
When you say something is not true...are you respecting others opinions....are you force feeding your own opinion...... are we trying to establish something here?
Are you correct? Am I wrong?
Where is the harmony?
???? Do we "respect others' opinions" by listening and saying nothing but good? I.e., are we taking turns around the campfire, each telling his own ghost story for the approval of others, or are we having an intelligent discussion?

Craig proffered an opinion. I offered an opinion about that opinion. And since I'm always careful that I don't get caught out on a theoretical limb, I try to never say anything that I can't demonstrate on the spot, if need be. It's good to have these discussions.

"Harmony"? I was hoping by now that more people would understand that the term "harmony", which Ueshiba used in the cosmological sense, has to do with the order of the universe and how we should do things that don't conflict with that order... that way we are "in harmony with the universe". O-Sensei was not selling a behavioural prescript that we should "be in harmony and not have arguments". Ever read any about his character, blow-ups, etc.?

Have fun. Engage. Elicit information. Let's enjoy each other's validly made and polite points.

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-03-2006, 08:54 AM   #122
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Amen

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Old 11-03-2006, 08:57 AM   #123
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

And if I caused any offense, please forgive.

Best,
Ron

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Old 11-03-2006, 09:00 AM   #124
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I can take ukemi

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Old 11-03-2006, 09:06 AM   #125
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Gotta say mike you have a way with words

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