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Old 10-22-2006, 06:51 PM   #76
danj
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Hi All,
Some years back I did the unraisable body using 3-D force plates to measure the ground reaction forces of the people doing the lifting. This was compared to a 'dead lift' and the unraisable body lift. Vertical lifting force was translated into horizontal motion for the unraisable body lift correlating very well with basic principles of physics.
Of course easier to teach 'extend ki' than 1st year university physics if you want to help people do these kinds of things.

i'll try and dig up the article if there is intrest

best wishes,
danny

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Old 10-22-2006, 07:20 PM   #77
raul rodrigo
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Daniel James wrote:
Hi All,
Some years back I did the unraisable body using 3-D force plates to measure the ground reaction forces of the people doing the lifting. This was compared to a 'dead lift' and the unraisable body lift. Vertical lifting force was translated into horizontal motion for the unraisable body lift correlating very well with basic principles of physics.
Of course easier to teach 'extend ki' than 1st year university physics if you want to help people do these kinds of things.

i'll try and dig up the article if there is intrest

best wishes,
danny
I'm sorry, could you explain that a little more? how is the vertical lifting force converted into horizontal force?

R
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Old 10-22-2006, 07:59 PM   #78
danj
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan

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Old 10-22-2006, 08:51 PM   #79
raul rodrigo
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Thanks a lot. Its very helpful.
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:14 AM   #80
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Daniel James wrote:
Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan
Hi Dan, mind if I post that link on the Yuishinkai UK boards? We've got a thread going on there about physics, physiology and ki.

Cheers

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:57 AM   #81
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
which ones are those?

are you talking about:

udemawashi
zenshin koshin
ikkyo hitori waza
sayu undo
sayu undo choyaku
funakogi waza
mae ukemi
ushiro ukemi
ushiro tekubitori zenpo nage

ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, or yonkyo?

Those are most of the exercises we use as 'ki exercises'. Which ones are foreign to Aikido?
These are all hitori waza, exercises taken more or less from aikido techniques. These are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring more to the exercises that are tested during a "ki test." Unbendable arm, standing with mind and body coordinated, unliftable body, sitting and standing, etc. These and other such ki tests and related exercises are borrowed from Nakamura sensei and his system of Japanese yoga. Ki society also did a set of exercises referred to specifically as "ki development exercises," but these have pretty much been integrated into Oneness Rhythm Taiso, as far as I know. In my five plus years of Ki Aikido practice, I think I've done the Ki Development Exercises once, as sort of a history lesson of sorts. My sensei required me to read a book on the Tempukai not too long ago, mainly because I could trace the martial lineage of Shin shin toitsu aikido pretty well, but couldn't tell you much about Nakamura sensei. I believe the book is called Japanese Yoga, I can't remember the author off hand, but the style of yoga taught is referred to as shin shin toitsu do (look familiar?), and while reading it, I kept thinking "ah yes, I know that, or we do that..." Compare that book to Ki in Daily Life, you'll find more congruencies than discrepencies, but there are no pictures of Shinichi sensei in the yoga book.

Hope this helps.

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Old 10-23-2006, 12:17 PM   #82
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Daniel James wrote:
Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan
Thanks, Dan for some wonderful articles. I looked at couple of the others on your dojo site. Did you do the unbendable arm stress diagram on a FEM engine, boundary element mesh or what? I can't do it, but I appreciate it the effort it requires, nonetheless.

On both that and the unraisable body article, I would suggest this thought also for consideration, if you continue with this line of analysis:
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publica...e10/Heyman.pdf

On page 3 of 5 Heyman summarizes the function of the four-hinge mechanism of collapse, as well as describing Hooke's classical inverted catenary stability profile of all arches in compression.

I have his book "The Stone Skeleton" that goes over this analysis .
An excerpt is here: http://www.amazon.ca/gp/reader/05216...48#reader-page
(where the hinge mechanism of collapse is also briefly described at pp. 15-17 of the excerpted portion.

Basically, the lifters have to form an arch over the shoulders with the body weight suspended from the center by the spine. Any arch creates thrust (hence your results on the horizontal components of ground reactions). Anything that causes this arch to collapse makes the body weight unliftable. Four hinges in an arch will collapse it.

Assuming they lift from the forearms, there are potential hinges at both grasping points, both elbows, both shoulders, and the neck, or seven potential points of articulation to form a hinge. If you count the interface of their feet with the ground, it is nine. If you can get the lifter's joints to articulate in compression, too, then it's 12 or more. It is pretty much like pushing a rope at that point.

The ability to shift the weight, even very slightly, dramatically alters the eccentricity of the thrust loads, and thus can, in addition, damp almost any applied moment at the supports they might otherwise be able to create.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-23-2006 at 12:20 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-23-2006, 06:05 PM   #83
danj
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Thanks, Dan for some wonderful articles. I looked at couple of the others on your dojo site. Did you do the unbendable arm stress diagram on a FEM engine, boundary element mesh or what? I can't do it, but I appreciate it the effort it requires, nonetheless. ......


Basically, the lifters have to form an arch over the shoulders with the body weight suspended from the center by the spine. Any arch creates thrust (hence your results on the horizontal components of ground reactions). Anything that causes this arch to collapse makes the body weight unliftable. Four hinges in an arch will collapse it.

Assuming they lift from the forearms, there are potential hinges at both grasping points, both elbows, both shoulders, and the neck, or seven potential points of articulation to form a hinge. If you count the interface of their feet with the ground, it is nine. If you can get the lifter's joints to articulate in compression, too, then it's 12 or more. It is pretty much like pushing a rope at that point.

The ability to shift the weight, even very slightly, dramatically alters the eccentricity of the thrust loads, and thus can, in addition, damp almost any applied moment at the supports they might otherwise be able to create.
Hi Eric,
It was an FEM analysis done using coventor..its not so rigouous but demonstrates the point i think.

The construction anaylsis looks interesting....

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Old 10-25-2006, 12:42 PM   #84
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Is there any difference between what Chris Angel does and what Tohei does?
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Old 10-26-2006, 12:56 AM   #85
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
Is there any difference between what Chris Angel does and what Tohei does?
yes, go back and read the first pages of this thread.

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Old 10-26-2006, 01:43 AM   #86
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
These are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring more to the exercises that are tested during a "ki test." Unbendable arm, standing with mind and body coordinated, unliftable body, sitting and standing, etc. These and other such ki tests and related exercises are borrowed from Nakamura sensei and his system of Japanese yoga. Ki society also did a set of exercises referred to specifically as "ki development exercises," but these have pretty much been integrated into Oneness Rhythm Taiso, as far as I know. In my five plus years of Ki Aikido practice, I think I've done the Ki Development Exercises once, as sort of a history lesson of sorts. My sensei required me to read a book on the Tempukai not too long ago, mainly because I could trace the martial lineage of Shin shin toitsu aikido pretty well, but couldn't tell you much about Nakamura sensei. I believe the book is called Japanese Yoga, I can't remember the author off hand, but the style of yoga taught is referred to as shin shin toitsu do (look familiar?), and while reading it, I kept thinking "ah yes, I know that, or we do that..." Compare that book to Ki in Daily Life, you'll find more congruencies than discrepencies,

If you are referring to this book
http://www.stonebridge.com/JAPANYOGA/japaneseyoga.html

it's a very good well written book.

I really think it's appropriate to look on Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido has having two pillars : Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido) and Tempu Nakamura (Shin Shin Toitsu Do). Tempu Nakamura certainly lived an interesting life worthy of several movies (BIO) and personally his behavior during the war period was quite a bit more in line with the idea of the Art of Peace many people in Aikido past or present have tended to sanctify Morihei Ueshiba with.

Koichi Tohei was a disciple and very highly talented student of both men. One of Tohei's earliest aikido books from around 1960 has a foreward by Tempu Nakamura if I remember correctly.

Not unlike the way Stanely Pranin describes the history of Aikido itself having two pillars in Sokaku Takeda (Daito Ryu) and Onisaburo DeGuchi (Omoto Kyo).

---------


as for the Ki Development Exercises or
Toitsu Taiso

That was done separately from the Oneness Rhythm Exercise (ORE) and existed before the ORE.

When I started, the ORE was just being introduced. In fact demonstrating the Toitsu Taiso was part of my gokyu exam.
The ORE gradually became more important but there's nothing wrong with the Toitsu Taiso. I don't think it's a matter of one being integrated in to the other. I think they have rather different purposes. Toitsu Taiso to me is more about ki training and warmup than aikido. ORE is really a core training tool for aikido in which Tohei Sensei is trying to instill in you the correct rhythm for performing waza.

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Old 10-26-2006, 04:30 AM   #87
paulb
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
yes, go back and read the first pages of this thread.
I read them but am still unclear as to the differences. Seems like there is an element of showmanship in both types of demo.
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Old 10-26-2006, 04:46 AM   #88
kironin
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
I read them but am still unclear as to the differences. Seems like there is an element of showmanship in both types of demo.
well, by your second sentence I gather your missing the point,
but
one is about putting on show of deception and
the other is about teaching an exercise rather doing a demo.

the differences I thought you were talking about were already discussed in previous posts.

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Old 10-26-2006, 05:07 AM   #89
paulb
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I think both what Chris does and Tohei does involves a large deal of basic physics and showmanship.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:17 AM   #90
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

well your welcome to think what you want to of course.

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Old 10-26-2006, 04:25 PM   #91
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

This is a compliment to Tohei. Chris Angel is a very talented man.
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Old 10-26-2006, 05:37 PM   #92
danj
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
I think both what Chris does and Tohei does involves a large deal of basic physics and showmanship.
I think there is a certain element of this in aikido . Many people are attracted to the art for the 'oriental fantasy' of donning strange period costumes and pursue secret mystical knowledge revealed in amazing feats of Ki (at least in the beginning).

Someone without these clothes, gets into spandex, a glittery cape etc...and calls it 'magic ' instead ....and we get upset.

Then there are those into the 'playing army' fantasy that don camoflage pants and do arts like 'Systema'

And finally scientists vainly pretend to have ultimate knowledge, hanging onto their pet theories ...all the while still struggling to understand what it all means on the mat

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Old 10-26-2006, 06:04 PM   #93
paulb
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

There is nothing wrong with the Oriental fantasy as the Orient is a fantastic place. I have never been drawn to mysical Ki but that may be because I spend alot of time in the far east so dont need to. Spandex is nice. Some Systema peeps may be Spetz wannabes, but they are more Angel Gabriel than Chris Angel-and a nice bunch of guys. As for scientists, give the guys a break, you have a lot to thank them for.
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:39 PM   #94
danj
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Osu!

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Old 10-27-2006, 01:27 AM   #95
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
As for scientists, give the guys a break, you have a lot to thank them for.
Thanks.


and I don't think of Ki as mystical which is why I find things like Criss Angel's statements irritating and comparing him to Tohei not flattering. Tempu Nakamura's ideas of bringing western empiricism into ki training is part of the attraction I like about it as a scientist.

Last edited by kironin : 10-27-2006 at 01:35 AM.

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Old 10-27-2006, 05:29 AM   #96
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I have never partiacularly liked these demos whether performed by Criss or by Tohei.
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:16 AM   #97
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
If you are referring to this book
http://www.stonebridge.com/JAPANYOGA/japaneseyoga.html

it's a very good well written book.

I really think it's appropriate to look on Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido has having two pillars : Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido) and Tempu Nakamura (Shin Shin Toitsu Do). Tempu Nakamura certainly lived an interesting life worthy of several movies (BIO) and personally his behavior during the war period was quite a bit more in line with the idea of the Art of Peace many people in Aikido past or present have tended to sanctify Morihei Ueshiba with.

Koichi Tohei was a disciple and very highly talented student of both men. One of Tohei's earliest aikido books from around 1960 has a foreward by Tempu Nakamura if I remember correctly.

Not unlike the way Stanely Pranin describes the history of Aikido itself having two pillars in Sokaku Takeda (Daito Ryu) and Onisaburo DeGuchi (Omoto Kyo).

---------
...
In fact, K. Tohei wrote a book on Ueshiba and Nakamura, but it is only in print in Japanese.

However he wrote in The Way to Union with Ki that he had three teachers. The first one was Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo. Ogura Sensei was a top student of master swordsman Tesshu Yamaoka. He taught a strenuous form of misogi.

The dojo itself still exists. You can read about it here.

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Old 10-27-2006, 07:46 AM   #98
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Paul Boswell wrote:
I have never partiacularly liked these demos whether performed by Criss or by Tohei.
Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:01 AM   #99
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:
Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?

Mike
Nah, not so much. There is a clip out there I wish could be banned, and guess who is featured in it?

This does not affect the fact that I think Ueshiba Sensei did us all a great service in leaving us this art.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:06 AM   #100
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?
Perhaps. As far as I know these demos are not taken so seriously in Japan (by the general population who sees them often). They are a form of entertainment. Tohei and O Sensei are/were quite charasmatic showmen. I do believe in Ki/Qi development but am not sure how relevent these demos are in terms of martial prowess.

Last edited by paulb : 10-27-2006 at 08:17 AM.
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