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Old 10-17-2006, 08:35 AM   #51
kironin
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Actually the instruction I was given in the pushing exercise is to touch uke's elbows but not push or lift them up, just to lightly connect with the incoming force and let it flow down through one's body to the ground.
R
correct, but try touching lightly on the forearms closer to the wrists.
It will be more of a challenge for you. Any unconscious tendency to
push back at all will quickly cause you to fail. So it can be more instructive on getting the correct feel of your body or mental state.

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Old 10-17-2006, 09:40 AM   #52
kokyu
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Sugestion is a powerful tool, but only against those who want to be given suggestions. It does not work on someone who does not want to belive in the suggestion. As long as you are vigilant and skeptical, you can rule out suggestion.
Beautifully said...

Actually, the Yoshinkan also has an interesting demonstration, as described in Angry White Pyjamas (p 223) "... I saw Chida do ogi, secret techniques, for the first time in a demonstration. He ordered two assistants to hoist him into the air, each assistant firmly holding one arm so that Chida was apparently helpless, two or three feet off the ground. It was like watching Houdini escape. For a moment, nothing happened and then Chida jumped to the ground while at the same time the two assistants flipped up into the air. Chida's secret power was to send his centre of gravity down to his feet without moving. At the same time he changed, minutely, his arm position, which broke the assistants' double-handed grip."
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:42 AM   #53
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Do a search on this board.
Already been covered.
Yes it exists, and if you want to see similar tricks do a search for "Akuzawa", "We Pei Sheng", "Shioda Gozo" etc in Youtube to see various Chinese/ Japanese guys in different arts pulling the same kind of stunts.

did the search on youtube and there is nothing in the videos from the first two remotely like what we are discussing here.

Akuzawa search leads to videos that lead to some interesting e-budo discussion here though sort of off the topic of this thread, some familiar names pop up from years past
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-31125.html

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Old 10-17-2006, 09:54 AM   #54
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I personally found I had slipped into that trap. In my mind my teachers were some kind of super human masters. Every little thing they did was amazing and I found myself helpless against their power. My aikido teacher had wrists that seemed like tree trunks, my judo instructor had a pull that seemed like it came from the center of the earth. And I was simply helpless. Once I realized it was all in my head I was able to push it aside and focus on training. Now wrists are just wrists, my judo instructor has flaws that can be exploited (althogh rarely) just like any other guy, and I have learned to always be skeptical and test any claim with an open mind.

I think is for many an almost an inevitable stage in progress, early on you simply haven't got the skill or body sense to be sensitive enough to what's going on.

A good teacher recognizes this and helps guide you so that you gain the ability to see what's up and become more of a challenge to him and therefore forces him to continue to revise and improve.

A bad teacher exploits this process and guides you down the path towards cultish self-delusion.

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Old 10-17-2006, 10:25 AM   #55
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
I think is for many an almost an inevitable stage in progress, early on you simply haven't got the skill or body sense to be sensitive enough to what's going on. ... A bad teacher exploits this process and guides you down the path towards cultish self-delusion.
Clarke's Law applies in martial art -- as in every other form of applied knowledge.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-17-2006, 12:42 PM   #56
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Craig,
The Akuzawa videos (and Wang Pei Sheng etc) are not "off topic." They are on topic because they show how to use the body in a method related to what Tohei was probably teaching.

The "immovable to a push" stuff especially relates to this thread. You don't have to take my word for it, you can try it yourself (as in, do the drills and exercises) and see.
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:26 PM   #57
Michael Douglas
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Re: You might not believe this

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote:
...
Here's the amazing part. While people are trying to lift him, he can lift his feet off the ground and they still cannot lift him.
Erm, feet off ground = lifted.
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Old 10-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #58
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
[[snip]] Generally it is jokers like this showman Criss Angel that take ki development out of the context of Aikido that present this stuff as magic tricks. [[snip]] first off, it is considered incorrect ki exercise to push and definitely not pushing at the elbows. What Criss Angel is doing is purely mechanical (notice his posture under pressure - it's not anything like what it should be) and again Gaku misses the point or chooses to miss the point. Correctly done, you touch very lightly the forearms and it becomes an exercise of learning to have the correct internal state, not about relying on leverage. One person is enough of a challenge. Beyond about three people, as someone else said, it is all show. And of course there is the exercise where you do it without your arms. Ki development is not about entertainment. It's about learning what can't be seen.

that youtube video makes me ill.
Hi Craig:

I agree with some of what you say, but I have a somewhat different perspective. Although Criss Angel was using his arms to push upward on the incoming force, the physics was technically not much different from real "ki", if you do an analysis. Criss has no "ki" skills (which admittedly encompass a number of western skills, not just one, as we would look at it in a western science perspective), but his physics usage would come close to the same vector analysis for a similar demonstration using "ki".... it would have to, if you really think about it. Instead of pushing up with the arms, someone with "ki" skills (or "jin" in the Chinese) would essentially come under the incoming force with a counter force, thus ensuring that the pusher is adding to the force which defeats his push against the demonstrator. Whether someone with "ki" can mentally form those upward paths through his body or whether a demonstrator like Angel can simply push upward with his arms doesn't matter a lot in the big-picture analysis. If you look at many videos of similar resistances by Ueshiba, Tohei, and others, you can see that the skill they are demonstrating is mainly a mental-physical ability to manipulate force vectors.

The caution I would mention is that there's more to "ki" than just these simple examples of one area of skills. And BTW, I'd congratulate Raul for his preceptions of what was going on.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:26 AM   #59
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Criss has no "ki" skills
How do you know this?
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:40 AM   #60
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
How do you know this?
I can see it. Can't you? If he had any ki skills he wouldn't have to do what he does. Surely as a "teacher", you can see this?

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-18-2006, 11:52 AM   #61
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Criss is a magician. He has no ki skills. Anyone with a modicum of observation skills can see this plainly. Watch how he limits the push of the first person by pushing up on the elbows. All he has to do is control the first person and while the first person is trying to maintain his balance, the rest of the line is merely supporting the person in front of them.

With the unliftable body trick, note how he's changed the angle of his elbows so that the 2 guys are lifting in a different direction other than up.

Exploiting the physics and mechanics for sure... ki definitely not. Not even close.

Ignatius
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Old 10-18-2006, 12:35 PM   #62
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Also, all you 'mainstream aikikai' guys should note that Osensei did 'ki tricks' like this all the time. Including one where he sat on the ground and had a ton of people push his forehead to try to topple him, and one where he held a jo with 9 guys pushing on it and unable to budge him.

in other words, it ain't just tohei. And it begs the question, why don't the current aikikai dudes do these things if Osensei did them?

where's the ??
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:19 PM   #63
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Criss is a magician. He has no ki skills. ...
Exploiting the physics and mechanics for sure... ki definitely not. Not even close.
A distinction without a difference.

Apparently, knowledge of Clarke's Law has suffered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Or, if you prefer the Old Man:
Quote:
O-Sensei wrote:
In these teachings listen most
To the rhythm of the strike and thrust
To train in the basics (omote)
Is to practice the very secrets of the art.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-18-2006, 04:28 PM   #64
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Apparently, knowledge of Clarke's Law has suffered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
And so much for Clarke... Now then, here's "Clark's Law":

No matter what happens, there's always somebody who KNEW it would, but still can't explain HOW it did.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:26 PM   #65
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I can see it. Can't you? If he had any ki skills he wouldn't have to do what he does. Surely as a "teacher", you can see this?

Mike Sigman
I don't place much faith in "seeing" skills. The eyes are very easily fooled, as any good magician knows.
I believe EVERYBODY has "ki skills."
Some are just better developed than others.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:52 PM   #66
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
I don't place much faith in "seeing" skills. The eyes are very easily fooled, as any good magician knows.
I believe EVERYBODY has "ki skills."
Some are just better developed than others.
Touché: sort of like how EVERYBODY speaks French, just some better than others.

-ck
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:35 PM   #67
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8

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Old 10-18-2006, 11:41 PM   #68
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8
Darth Vader did it too
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:11 AM   #69
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8
Just once I want to be the guy holding the sword.


That and I want a waver that says I'm not responsible for my actions.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:22 AM   #70
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8
Et les exemples d'escrime, ca, c'est du merde gauloise, alors, pour les Belges impressionables.

And another set of four-hinge arch manipulations at the beginning, by the way

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:33 AM   #71
ian
 
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

What the heck is 'ki skills' - the way we interpret ki in aikido seems all wrong. I think people need a better understanding in the chinese arts and philosophy before using such words.

When it comes down to it, the best way to encourage ki flow is relaxation, good diet, exercise and sleep. Basically - stay healthy and practise hard. I hate this mysticism rubbish, it takes away from the real practice, and from any real understanding of ki/chi (P.S. 'jin' is the physical manifestation of ki (i.e. power)in chinese, 'chi' is the chinese equivalent of ki). Taoist practise is derived from naturalness and simplicity. Everything is just as it seems!

P.S. that French video is hilarious! If only the samurai had worked harder instead of slacking they could have developed such skills!

Last edited by ian : 10-19-2006 at 09:36 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-19-2006, 10:29 AM   #72
Gwion
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
What the heck is 'ki skills' - the way we interpret ki in aikido seems all wrong. I think people need a better understanding in the chinese arts and philosophy before using such words.

When it comes down to it, the best way to encourage ki flow is relaxation, good diet, exercise and sleep. Basically - stay healthy and practise hard. I hate this mysticism rubbish, it takes away from the real practice, and from any real understanding of ki/chi (P.S. 'jin' is the physical manifestation of ki (i.e. power)in chinese, 'chi' is the chinese equivalent of ki). Taoist practise is derived from naturalness and simplicity. Everything is just as it seems!

P.S. that French video is hilarious! If only the samurai had worked harder instead of slacking they could have developed such skills!
actually, as someone mentioned before, Ki Society has people doing these 'tricks' from day one, and the idea of ki is explained so simply that a 2nd grader could quite easily comprehend it. In fact, ki is what we are all born with, it's the cutting OFF of ki with tension and adult mind/body discoordination that causes problems. Ever have a baby grab your finger and squeeze? those guys have KI. Also, babies can cry much louder and much longer than most of us can do a kiai. That's what it is about for me, getting back to that state of connection with all life.
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Old 10-21-2006, 06:23 AM   #73
kokyu
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Wayne Wilson wrote:
Also, all you 'mainstream aikikai' guys should note that Osensei did 'ki tricks' like this all the time. Including one where he sat on the ground and had a ton of people push his forehead to try to topple him, and one where he held a jo with 9 guys pushing on it and unable to budge him.

in other words, it ain't just tohei. And it begs the question, why don't the current aikikai dudes do these things if Osensei did them?

where's the ??
There might be some misunderstanding about the Aikikai - it's actually an umbrella organization with different styles... IMHO, the 'style' is not distinctive as the Yoshinkan or Ki Society... For example, students of Yamaguchi Sensei stress certain techniques/exercises which one may not see in students of Abe Sensei.

As for ki exercises within the Aikikai... I'm not sure... what I do know is that some Ki Society groups joined the Aikikai... but they could have retained some of the ki exercises in their daily training (even though they are now Aikikai). I was privileged to train in one of those 'previous Ki Society' dojos and I distinctly remember doing the 'sayu undo' warm-up exercise... something which one doesn't see in a dojo that has been Aikikai from the beginning... so it might not be too hard to imagine that some of these dojos could be practicing the Ki exercises as well... but someone else has to confirm...

I think all the mainstream Aikido organizations have something to offer. I own books written for Aikikai students, Ki Society members, Yoshinkan students and even Tomiki practitioners. Of course, one has to make a choice, but it doesn't mean we shut our minds off to what the other groups have to teach
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Old 10-21-2006, 01:24 PM   #74
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

I bet another big reason you don't see many ki development exercises within the aikikai umbrella is the fact that Tohei sensei didn't learn the exercises from O Sensei, he learned them from Nakamura Tempu sensei. Just a thought....
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Old 10-21-2006, 05:16 PM   #75
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Re: Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote:
I bet another big reason you don't see many ki development exercises within the aikikai umbrella is the fact that Tohei sensei didn't learn the exercises from O Sensei, he learned them from Nakamura Tempu sensei. Just a thought....

which ones are those?

are you talking about:

udemawashi
zenshin koshin
ikkyo hitori waza
sayu undo
sayu undo choyaku
funakogi waza
mae ukemi
ushiro ukemi
ushiro tekubitori zenpo nage

ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, or yonkyo?

Those are most of the exercises we use as 'ki exercises'. Which ones are foreign to Aikido?
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