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Old 10-09-2006, 02:00 AM   #1
Sean Britton
Dojo: Abundant Peace Aikido
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student has doubts

I have always been taught that aikido is used to discourage an attacker and to avoid a fight. but a little while ago at the school i go to. As i was walking down a crowded hallway i bumped into someone in a foul mood by mistake. then once i made it outside this person wanted to have a fight. i started walking backwards when he threw a punch which i tenkan around, then a 2nd the same way. But avoiding these swings just seemed to make the attacker even more pissed off. He then went to grab my jacket at the shoulders (which i almost laughed at but held it in). i got him into an ikkyo and took him down to my waist and asked him to stop. this made him even more angry and he flailed around trying to break free until he stopped. i finally let him free when i was able to get on a bus.

Thinking back on it now, using aikido almost looked as if i was taunting him. I also remember distinctly making sure i had a serious look on my face to avoid this very reaction.

So is there anyway to discourage an attacker without having to use force? (i really don't want to hurt anyone)
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:06 AM   #2
xuzen
 
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Re: student has doubts

You foiled his attacks a couple of time without hurting him and then egress out of the situation quickly enough before he can do anything to you; I think you did wonderful aikido.

Aikido protect self, no guarantee make foul mood people happy. So sorry.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:07 AM   #3
ksy
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
You foiled his attacks a couple of time without hurting him and then egress out of the situation quickly enough before he can do anything to you; I think you did wonderful aikido.

Aikido protect self, no guarantee make foul mood people happy. So sorry.

Boon.
damn right, man! some people are already so enraged that no amount of "playing nice" is going to calm them down (speaking from experience as one of those ex-"enraged" people). Sean, if this fella was already so pissed, imagine if you had punched him on the nose. As it was, both of you managed to "walk away". I'm glad your aikido techniques work, and you didn't choose to break any of his bones. In the meantime, keep your awareness just in case the fella decides to spring a surprise attack. Hopefully, when he calms down he would have thought about why you weren't more aggresive.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:22 AM   #4
stelios
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Re: student has doubts

I believe you acted correctly; I think I would have reacted the same way. What else could you have done mate?
Run away? He may have chassed you so you would be in the same situation some metres down the road.
Yes, Aikido is love, peace and all that but when your physical integrity is threatened and you absolutely cannot do otherwise then and only then use it!
Yet, if he was carrying a gun, a knife? This is another point...
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:44 AM   #5
Aristeia
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Re: student has doubts

work your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad ;-)

Good job imo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:48 AM   #6
DonMagee
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Re: student has doubts

This is where pain compliance can come in handy. You can take the guy down and jointlock/pin him until he calms down. Of course that is providing he doesn't have buddys. But I've found that throwning someone down and pining them tends to calm them down.

Otherwise it sounds like you did great.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:13 AM   #7
Tim Griffiths
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Re: student has doubts

It sounds like you did a good job of avoiding hurting him.
But that isn't always the best or "most harmonious" solution, especially with a belligerent agressor. Once you reached the point of physcially fighting (rather than talking him down in an 'aiki' way) then a little pain may have helped, not made things worse. Turn that ikkyo into a nikkyo, drop him on the floor and he'll think twice about getting up and coming again. If you control or avoid him without pain then you don't give him a good reason not to continue to attack you.

Quote:
I have always been taught that aikido is used to discourage an attacker and to avoid a fight.
True, but when he's throwing punches the time for that is already past. Then its time for the other definition of "Aikido is used to end a fight quickly with the best outcome possible, which usually is you unhurt and the attacker retaining some use of his upper limbs".

Train well,

Tim

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:21 AM   #8
dps
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Re: student has doubts

Physically your Aikido worked and got you out of a fight without harm to yourself ( most important part) and no harm to your attacker (secondary). You will have to wait and see if he ever bothers you again to see if it worked psychologically.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:11 AM   #9
MikeLogan
 
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Re: student has doubts

The above point by David is a good one. Here's a random guess, but one part of the aggressor's motivation must have been to try to affect the environment that he felt was affecting him. This can be seen when people break pencils when stressed, (destructive effect on environment), or decide that they should clean the dishes (creative effect on environment). Sean, you were the pencil that would not sit still long enough to be broken. You were the environment that he was trying to affect.

<iffy suggestion>
I'm not suggesting you go to school with one eye over your shoulder, but rather it might be helpful engender interaction with this person in a safe, moderated environment, say during class, or with some neutral third party, like a popular teacher that you think can help this person stay at ease. Who knows, this person might even find excellent outlet, and a positive habit-forming environment while training in aikido...
</ iffy suggestion>

This is where I'd invite all qualified social workers / psychologists / shrinks to offer their advice, with disclaimer or otherwise.

Good Luck Sean.

As to your actual question at the end; short of invoking the eloquence of King Henry the 5th before the gates of Harfleur, I'd say nope.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:03 AM   #10
crbateman
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Re: student has doubts

Your Aikido served you exactly as it should. The attacker's heightened rage was probably due more to embarrassment than anything else. It is likely that he will rethink his actions, and also come to rejoice in the fact that you let him keep his arm. The point is that you gained and maintained control, and aside from a bruised ego, nobody got hurt. That's aiki...
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:34 AM   #11
Bronson
 
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Re: student has doubts

It's an odd leap from your story to the one gonna tell but I'm an odd guy

When you said:
Quote:
Sean Britton wrote:
But avoiding these swings just seemed to make the attacker even more pissed off. He then went to grab my jacket at the shoulders (which i almost laughed at but held it in). i got him into an ikkyo and took him down to my waist and asked him to stop. this made him even more angry and he flailed around trying to break free until he stopped.
it reminded me of a bouncer I used to know. He said that if there was a big guy giving him a hassle and he couldn't convince him to leave by asking nicely, he'd slap the trouble maker. He said that the slap would usually cause instant rage and that in his experience enraged people were easier to control. They didn't calculate or think about their attacks and would over commit and leave huge openings. He claimed it was the calculating, thinking fighters that really scared him.

Just a story that popped into my head.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:04 PM   #12
aikidjoe
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Sean Britton wrote:
So is there anyway to discourage an attacker without having to use force? (i really don't want to hurt anyone)
I believe you handled it very well; you incflicted no damage and tried to avoid any physical conflict. Some people have such high-strung egos that they are easily angered and insulted, and there isn't much to do with these types of people but be polite and, ultimately, humble them.
My only question is, did you apologize after bumping into the person, and if so, was it an honest apology or a hurried one? Sometimes being polite is the best form of aiki.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:11 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: student has doubts

Aikido is about YOU, making improving yourself. Judging it's effectiveness on others is not the issue at stake, people will sometimes act in ways we didn't anticipate or want them too! By improving ourselves and our understanding of how we fit into the world, we hopefully will more positiviely influence the situations we are in.

Don't feel like a failure though because a situation did not end they way you preconcieved it should have.

Sometimes it might be aiki to kill some one (unfortunately), some times it might be aiki to smile at someone...lots of latitude for appropriateness in between. The point is that we do so with thought and compassion...which you are demonstrating here by thinking about it.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:55 PM   #14
mickeygelum
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Re: student has doubts

"work on your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad"....

...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....

Miku-san
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:59 PM   #15
crbateman
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....
Your logic makes sense to a degree, but a broken elbow can be a lasting injury, causing permanent impairment (and possibly legal consequences). This is not warranted unless your life is in peril. The takedown and control was effective and entirely adequate. Healing an attitude is better than breaking an arm.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:26 PM   #16
Sean Britton
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Tim Griffiths wrote:
True, but when he's throwing punches the time for that is already past. Then its time for the other definition of "Aikido is used to end a fight quickly with the best outcome possible, which usually is you unhurt and the attacker retaining some use of his upper limbs".

Train well,

Tim
superb advice tim

Quote:
Joseph Montange wrote:
My only question is, did you apologize after bumping into the person, and if so, was it an honest apology or a hurried one? Sometimes being polite is the best form of aiki.
the thing is, in a crowded hallway you bump into a ton of people. so giving every person you make contact with an apology would make me 3 hours late for every class

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
"work on your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad"....

...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....

Miku-san
the troublesome thing is. if this person comes back. because it is still close to a school, actaully hurting the attacker would get the school and perents involved. it would turn one or two small incodents into a large issue. So if this person tries again, i dont know if the same thing will work a second time.
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:54 AM   #17
mickeygelum
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Re: student has doubts

Mr. Bateman wrote :
Quote:
Your logic makes sense to a degree, but a broken elbow can be a lasting injury, causing permanent impairment (and possibly legal consequences). This is not warranted unless your life is in peril
Criminal/civil liability only enjoin when the defender role shifts to the aggressor role... the individual persisted in the assault after several countermeasures were employed... unless one is clarvoyent, how does one know what the intent of the attacker...better six weeks in a cast than six feet in a box

Miku-san
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:19 AM   #18
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Mr. Bateman wrote :


Criminal/civil liability only enjoin when the defender role shifts to the aggressor role... the individual persisted in the assault after several countermeasures were employed... unless one is clarvoyent, how does one know what the intent of the attacker...better six weeks in a cast than six feet in a box

Miku-san
You did notice this guy is from Edmonton, Alberta right? I notice you live in what was recently considered 'the deadliest city in America', so your perspective may be a little skewed. I think there is probably a greater chance of getting hit by a meteor than being beaten to death waiting to get on a school bus in Edmonton. Predicting a less dire outcome probably does not require psychic powers.
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Old 10-10-2006, 04:21 AM   #19
crbateman
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Re: student has doubts

It would be a stretch of any imagination to think that someone you accidentally bumped into would actually try to kill you, and grabbing of ones person, while considered aggression, cannot be justified as deadly intent. An arm with a weapon in it is begging to be broken, but this incident would be difficult to justify if it ended with a maiming. Since a satisfactory outcome was achieved with a pin and a withdrawal, how could one argue that further injury would have been desirable or necessary?
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:21 AM   #20
ian
 
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Re: student has doubts

I agree - I had a similar situation myself where I avoided several attacks only to be hit eventually by a bottle (in a multiple attack). I think gentle aikido is used when people are being gentle or arsing around. When they are more serious you must finish them off (i.e. put them down hard enough that they don't get back up). Aikido is a training structure - be aware of the potential end-points of many of the techniques.

There is certainly a matter of judgement, but don't think that there aren't people out their that aren't only prepared to kill you, they will get some pleasure out of it also. In your case, I'd say it was actually quite a succesful resolution. I always teach a strike to the back of the head (you know, just below the lumps) after a pin. Good thing is aikido gives you options. If that was a 12 year old girl attacking you wouldn't want to break her arms and legs.

P.S. I think aikido will seem like taunting someone at times. You are saying to them - 'hit me if you want' and then not letting them. If their objective is to hurt you, you cannot let them fulfill that objective.

P.P.S. also, when I say end-points - you have to realise that hurting this bloke may just have made him want to attack you more (or attack someone else) - its very difficult to judge and I would never criticise someone else's reaction to a situation since you can only do what you can do at the time and nothing more.

Last edited by ian : 10-10-2006 at 10:30 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:40 PM   #21
Sean Britton
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
You did notice this guy is from Edmonton, Alberta right? I notice you live in what was recently considered 'the deadliest city in America', so your perspective may be a little skewed. I think there is probably a greater chance of getting hit by a meteor than being beaten to death waiting to get on a school bus in Edmonton. Predicting a less dire outcome probably does not require psychic powers.
haha so very true. i think i heard on the news last night some guy lost his shoe
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Old 10-10-2006, 06:55 PM   #22
crbateman
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
Sean Britton wrote:
haha so very true. i think i heard on the news last night some guy lost his shoe
He didn't LOSE his shoe... It was STOLEN... by a FOOT FETISHIST... from MARS...
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:34 PM   #23
mickeygelum
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Re: student has doubts

Quote:
While the homicide rate in Toronto jumped by 9 percent last year, Edmonton had a total of 44 homicides, giving the Alberta capital the dubious distinction of having the highest murder rate in the country. The next highest rates were reported in Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-27/44324.html
Yes, I noticed from where Mr. Britton hails... Yes I live and work in the deadliest city in America...I was not judging his actions to resolve the incident. I will state with absolute certainty, I will never wonder if there is going to be a second incident...never.

Miku-san
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Old 10-10-2006, 10:07 PM   #24
statisticool
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Re: student has doubts

Sean, maybe even try and make friends with that person and give them information about your dojo or aikido in general?

In the hopes they will learn more peaceful ways of expressing themselves, and useful ways to defend themselves from others.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 10-10-2006, 11:07 PM   #25
Talon
 
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Re: student has doubts

Sean, how long have you been training at sensei Brad Schultz dojo?
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