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Old 12-20-2010, 12:17 AM   #476
Aikirk
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:47 AM   #477
dps
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
In other words, your brain needs that model to make your body get the job done when there really isn't any other vocabularly for it. And if it's that hard to describe, imagine how hard it is to do!
You are so right.

Another way of explaining it is visualization, mental imagery or guided imagery. Where you use your imagination to get your body to do some thing that is too complex for the conscious mind to understand.
Once the effect is obtained you have to forget the imagery and use the feel of the effect.


dps

Last edited by dps : 12-20-2010 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:17 AM   #478
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
Did that senior English dan grade of Ki Aikido lure & lead Uke's attack before physical contact is made?? Or was Uke's attack static??

I believe luring & leading put effortless Aiki into the equation, while static attacks put merely Nage's Ki extension into the equation.

In my opinion, based in my understanding of Aiki & Ki extension, we need both for our Aikido to work.

Just my 2-cents worth..
We treat all our visitors with respect and understanding. As we did in the case of the visiting `Ki ` teacher, we worked with him until we were expected to fall down, we don't do ``ring a ring a roses `` in my dojo.
We were not trying to embarrass him in any way, he sucessfully achieved that all by himself..

The adjusting the weight of the body had me impressed, and puzzled when I first saw this many years ago.. Once you know what to do, it is so simple and not at all magical.

I find it strange how many aikidoka appear to believe that Ki is exclusive to Aikido, it is applicable to many sports and daily life.
There was the true story of the lady who lifted the back of a car off the ground to release her trapped child, desperation with the coordination of mind and body.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:22 AM   #479
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
RE: The Emphasis on Ki

These are the main differences in training approaches between the various Aikido schools/ryus/styles.

Some emphasise a wide variety of techniques in Kyu grades & only introduce Ki extensions in the Dan grades,
while others emphasise Ki extensions (on a handful of basic techniques) in Kyu grades & only begin exploring the wider range of techniques in the Dan grades.

There are pros & cons for each approach. My Ryu, Tendoryu, adopts the latter approach. For Kyu grades, to develop our Ki extension from our centre, we practise on 4 basic techniques: Ikkyo, Shiho Nage, Kotegaeshi & Irimi Nage continuously.
Only from Shodan that we begin exploring the other less-known techniques.

RE: Ki a mysticalmagical thing??

I believe there is Ki in everyone of us. We just have to learn to develop, control & project it.
I believe we have electricity in us manifested by chemicals, from the fuel we eat and drink, which coordinate via brain neurons and connections and the cortex to the muscles which have memory, given enough practice......
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:28 AM   #480
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
We treat all our visitors with respect and understanding. As we did in the case of the visiting `Ki ` teacher, we worked with him until we were expected to fall down, we don't do ``ring a ring a roses `` in my dojo.
We were not trying to embarrass him in any way, he sucessfully achieved that all by himself..

The adjusting the weight of the body had me impressed, and puzzled when I first saw this many years ago.. Once you know what to do, it is so simple and not at all magical.

I find it strange how many aikidoka appear to believe that Ki is exclusive to Aikido, it is applicable to many sports and daily life.
There was the true story of the lady who lifted the back of a car off the ground to release her trapped child, desperation with the coordination of mind and body.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Thanks Henry...... couldn't have put it better, I just hate the misconception of this so bandied about word....

Tony
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:44 AM   #481
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Looks very much to me like a bit of randori kyogi that we do in T/S aikido ..... not so pretty now is it......
Sportsman like yeah, but hardly pretty......

Repeat.................... it is not pretty aikido
More like aikijudo if you ask me.......
But I'm no expert now so I rest my case.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3b...eature=related

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-20-2010 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:12 AM   #482
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Tony

No, it was not pretty at all...Tohei did OK as he simply ```adapted ``
to the situation in hand...That is the one point that my son Rik attempts to get across in his article " Aikido in MMA " , the need to ```adapt ``` there was no classic Aikido posture from Tohei ...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:22 AM   #483
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Just for added measure......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY&NR=1

No aiki here is there????......
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:26 AM   #484
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

No, it was not pretty at all...Tohei did OK as he simply ```adapted ``
to the situation in hand...That is the one point that my son Rik attempts to get across in his article " Aikido in MMA " , the need to ```adapt ``` there was no classic Aikido posture from Tohei ...

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
That's where the aikibunnies are in denial Henry, the proof is there for all to see but they can't see it!!!!!!

Tony
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:31 AM   #485
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.
Love to see them......
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:51 AM   #486
Hellis
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Ki can be felt, ki can be developed and ki can be used. I'm finding it odd, that one encounter with a ki based school apparently means, that ki does not exist. It is like sailing a leaking boat, and concluding that boats won't float!

There are masters out there who can even use ki to make them selves heavier from a static and unchanged position (In fact we all can). One shodan at my club tried this in his jujutsu days and could not lift a 1.6 m tall japanese guy, and still does not know how this happened. What body mechanic would be able to have this effect?

Personally I have had many encounters with ki, but 95% of them was not in Aikido. When I have got the time, i might post something very thought provoking.
If you are replying to me ? ....I have related one story from my 55 years of Aikido study, believe me there are many more.....

Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:48 AM   #487
Mark Freeman
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here
Of course there is no magic here. Unraiseable body can be taught to just about anybody. I taught it to my 5 year old daughter shortly after I learnt it myself. It is simply a matter of mind/body co-ordination, relaxation and a correct frame of mind.

I agree with the point that correct body mechanics are central to what makes aikido work, by that I mean, posture, connection to the ground through the centre and a relaxed musculature. However, the importance of the mind cannot be left out of the equation.

I think this is where there the grey area of what 'ki' is, can and can't do. There are those who pooh pooh the whole idea of 'ki' and those who seem to attribute it to everything that is. I don't know what the truth of the whole matter is. For me it provides something for my mind to work with, so if I am instructed to 'extend ki' I take it as an instruction to extend my mind beyond my body. It works for me, so I will keep doing that until something better comes along.

My teacher once asked the class if anyone could explain what 'ki' is and someone put their hand up, so he was invited to share his thoughts with the class. When he had finished, my teacher said "I'm glad you know, because I have no idea what it is...(and he added with a smile and a wink) but I know how to use it!"

Ki cannot be disproven and at the moment we have no way of proving it either, so the discussions will continue...

As for the visiting 'ki' aikido person who couldn't deliver the goods, maybe he was just not very good. I have had visitors who have come from other styles of aikido that are flummoxed by the fact that they can't throw me when they try (they are not used to non resistant following and someone remaining on balance), and the harder they try the worse it gets for them and the potentials for reversals are obvious. In other words, they are not that good either.

Although I am comfortable with the term ki as it provides a frame of reference for my not very bright mind, I have not encountered anything mystical or magical in my aikido practice. Just many things that I have not known how to explain for many years until I could replicate them.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:27 AM   #488
chillzATL
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Forget the word "ki" for a start and practice against some one who resists with all there guile......
Been doing that for years now Tony, thanks. I can also paste funny emotes. So we're a lot alike. Now continue and explain ki as body mechanics please.
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:01 AM   #489
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

It does not matter whether or not a person believes in Ki. If you are alive, there is life energy. The next question is whether or not it can be used in a martial setting. I have personally experienced it in both Aikido and in other martial arts.

If you guys in Europe would like to get an opportunity to experience it at a very frightening level, then I would suggest that you set aside the weekend of April 9 &10 in Lyon, France. Kenji Ushiro Sensei will be teaching his first seminar in Europe. He was introduced to the Aikido world at the Aiki Expo. He teaches a style of Bujitsu. A lot of his students have left other "hard" arts in Japan to study under him. Katsumi (Oyama top tournament fighter) is just one example of many. His use of Ki in a fighting context is a real game changer. You have to personally experience it to actually believe it.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:38 AM   #490
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Been doing that for years now Tony, thanks. I can also paste funny emotes. So we're a lot alike. Now continue and explain ki as body mechanics please.
I said forget the word "Ki".... And as you are so familiar with it?

Posture or kamae to you, high, medium, low..... done whether you turn, pivot or otherwise, standing up, kneeling, seiza, shikko, whatever Japanese terminology you wish to use which I don't, other than names of waza we use in the basic 17 we use in T/S aikido, whether walking on the knees, whether holding a weapon or not.... Posture is fundamental to all fighting arts, whether Asian, Western or otherwise and is a natural stance which we tidy up a bit with aikido by keeping ones centre of gravity low whichever stance one takes, this is achieved by bending the knees and keeping relaxed..... body weight distributed 2/3 front leg and 1/3 back leg or in the case of mushin mugamae (no posture) ,,,,, shizentai, both legs have the weight evenly distributed again with knees bent and the body relaxed.....
Care for any more?

Now you explain to me what "ki" is......
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:53 AM   #491
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
It does not matter whether or not a person believes in Ki. If you are alive, there is life energy. The next question is whether or not it can be used in a martial setting. I have personally experienced it in both Aikido and in other martial arts.

If you guys in Europe would like to get an opportunity to experience it at a very frightening level, then I would suggest that you set aside the weekend of April 9 &10 in Lyon, France. Kenji Ushiro Sensei will be teaching his first seminar in Europe. He was introduced to the Aikido world at the Aiki Expo. He teaches a style of Bujitsu. A lot of his students have left other "hard" arts in Japan to study under him. Katsumi (Oyama top tournament fighter) is just one example of many. His use of Ki in a fighting context is a real game changer. You have to personally experience it to actually believe it.

Marc Abrams
I don't see any one really "hitting" him in his demo's...... Why is it when really challenged these people don't or won't face up to it? I have "felt" their so called "ki" and there is nothing there!!!! Other than your own belief in thinking it exists, like those who believe in gods, spirits, spooks and all manner of hocus pocus..... If you believe he can stop you with his "ki" then he has already conned you into thinking it and has therefore "defeated" you already..... That is called psyching out your opponent.....
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:54 AM   #492
C. David Henderson
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
You are so right.

Another way of explaining it is visualization, mental imagery or guided imagery. Where you use your imagination to get your body to do some thing that is too complex for the conscious mind to understand.
Once the effect is obtained you have to forget the imagery and use the feel of the effect.

dps
Hi David,

I like that view a lot.

There are researchers studying the neurological effects of meditation whose basic headline is -- "if it fires together, it wires together." (that is, a chemical reaction resulting in electric discharge within the nervous system, for the unpoetic.)

Most high-level sports incorporate visualization techniques for maximizing physical performance. For example, the alpine racer who visualizes skiing the course before the gate opens....

I once read some research on modern olympic weight lifting. Coaches used stop action video to show one lifter there was a catch in his clean-and-jerk lift, and he was able to change his movement to eliminate the problem.

Thing is, the lift was happening at a speed where a person would not be able consciously to change their performance in the act of actually lifting. Nonetheless, the image of doing it correctly provided a visual template upon which the lifter was able to rewrite subtly a complex and interrelated series of movements that all had to occur in a split second.

(Whether coincidentally or not, with this training emphasis the elite in the sport have shifted away (relatively) from sheer strength and towards power and flexibility.)

I try to understand "ki" as a guide in much the same sense for rewiring the way the body performs (with changes, over time, in the body as well as the mind).

Edit: I'm also fine, myself, in thinking of it in terms like pressure and weight, frankly

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 12-20-2010 at 10:57 AM.

David Henderson
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:01 AM   #493
Aikirk
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
If you are replying to me ? ....I have related one story from my 55 years of Aikido study, believe me there are many more.....

Many years ago I had a young girl student aged 9 years, I tried an experiment by teaching her to adjust her body weight when being lifted, first she would allow herself to be lifted over six feet by the big guys, after a few moments of relaxation she could not be lifted off the mat.....no magic here.

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Well ki is not magic, but lowering ones center of gravity should in no way make this stunt possible, as the weight of the master/child remains the same. Therefore I will still argue the fact, that something else is happening.

The fact that she needs to relax, does not suprise as relaxation is what makes energy flow.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:22 AM   #494
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Well ki is not magic, but lowering ones center of gravity should in no way make this stunt possible, as the weight of the master/child remains the same. Therefore I will still argue the fact, that something else is happening.
Yes, something else is happening:

http://www.aikidorepublic.com/aikiph...nraisable-body

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-20-2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: link
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:26 AM   #495
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I don't see any one really "hitting" him in his demo's...... Why is it when really challenged these people don't or won't face up to it? I have "felt" their so called "ki" and there is nothing there!!!! Other than your own belief in thinking it exists, like those who believe in gods, spirits, spooks and all manner of hocus pocus..... If you believe he can stop you with his "ki" then he has already conned you into thinking it and has therefore "defeated" you already..... That is called psyching out your opponent.....
Some of the best people in the world have taken their best shots at him. I have personally witnessed some of it. If you think that someone like Katsumi will not face up to it, then by all means, give it a go yourself. Katsumi is one of the greatest full contact, karate tournament fighters period. Ushiro Sensei is open to anybody stepping up to the plate. A K-1 champ tried it as well, same outcome. That is why so many people have left their teachers and are now studying with him. As a psychologist, I think that I have a very good understanding of hypnotic process, psyched out...... I would venture to say that my understanding of those areas is greater than your own. That being said, I am a genuine skeptic and always step up to the plate to test things out. I have and continue to do so with Ushiro Sensei. That is why I am additionally training with him and taking the significant time and expense to travel to Japan and bring him to the US.

I think that you know by my posts that I am not an aiki-bunny. I can also acknowledge levels and skills sets that go beyond the ordinary. Ushiro Sensei's use of Ki is one such person who can deliver the goods, regardless of whether you believe in it or not. Then again, come to Lyon and test it out yourself. You and I can wash down your experiences with some nice suds (or wine) afterward. First rounds on me...

Most of the stuff that looks fake, is fake. Then again, there are some people out there whose stuff looks fake and simply is not and far beyond where we are.

Marc Abrams

ps- The guy who did the series "mind-body kickass" is from England. Contact him directly and ask him privately about Ushiro Sensei.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:28 AM   #496
Aikirk
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Love to see them......
I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:28 AM   #497
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

OOOOOh yes.......

which goes to prove that most things can and will be explained by science..... sooner or later!!
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:33 AM   #498
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I would like to know, what you think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI93GFmfiOw
You are just as delusional as the people in the video .... see if they can actually do it you before producing such crap!!!!
I had this tried on me and nothing happened .... something about me not being receptive or some such bullshit
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:36 AM   #499
Aikirk
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Having only read some it, it seems like what your have found is not how my sensei (non-aikidoka) showed it. There was no stance, just standing relaxed is if you where waiting for a bus and the other person holding you from behind around the stomach trying to lift you from the ground. So there was no structure like pictured in the link.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:38 AM   #500
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
OOOOOh yes.......

which goes to prove that most things can and will be explained by science..... sooner or later!!
The problem is: when 'something' has not been explained by science we have two* main options...

a) The 'something' does not exist.
b) The 'something' is supernatural.

Choose wisely.

*In fact there is a third option but implies recognizing our own ignorance about the 'something', let's discard it.
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