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Old 10-02-2006, 12:43 AM   #76
Upyu
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Erick:

Hopefully this'll take some of the guess work out of what I'm describing.

The following video shows the exercise being done, towards the end, the person on the left holds him down slightly, without exerting visible pressure.

http://www.badongo.net/vid/197241

I don't think the connection is at the shoulder, in fact I think the spine plays a more prominent role, and needs to be coordinated with the tanden. Its not "just" the tanden.
Its simply an exercise in understand what it means to "stand" and transmit your weight without committing it.
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:31 AM   #77
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The problem is the self-selective nature of this group that is prepared to learn it without such difficulty. If all we teach are those that come looking, then well, of course, you are indisputably right. If we are seeking to broaden the exposure and reach those who may not have considered aikido, or know nothing about it, we have a different problem of threshold reference.
I would rather see a smaller group of people doing something valuable than a larger group doing something questionable. Since really working at this stuff is automatically self-selecting anyway, I would rather see a clear exposition which can act like a magnet to draw those who really want it and will make use of it. You are probably right that Aikido currently does not attract some people it 'should', but the converse is that it also attracts people it 'should not'. I think simple accuracy is the best way to provide 'truth in advertising', and I would not presume to have any goal beyond that. All I really want personally are training partners who are on the right track. I'm not really a proselytizer though.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Not at all, or at least not in the way you, Mike and others seem to advocate. It is more correct to say that the strain form of energy storage is among the conceptual items that I specifically see that aikido is intended to avoid as unnecessary in application of technique. It is also correct to say that in an attack, that kind of "wind-up" joint loading is precisely the vulnerability that aiki exploits.
From what you are saying, I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The only stored energy necessarily released and then recovered is a transient angular momentum, not a potential torque strain. I only receive such strain if I try to reject energy I gather or hold onto energy I release. If I let them both go, I am not under strain, because I allow the energy to move me as it will and retain no potential wind-up or tension energy to impart. I leave the energy in the movement.
The problem, in my opinion, with using 'angular momentum' as a fundamentally important property, is that it simply does not translate to the static potential so important to expression of the forces we want to generate. It's not that momentum (angular or otherwise) is not important when it comes to applying techniques, but it should be possible to factor it out. Your idea, as I understand it, would be to reduce the input momentum to an infinitesimal quantity, and leave the analysis of how forces propagate through joints unchanged. I think it is interesting, but you eventually need to deal with the static situation. By focusing only on the dynamic aspect of the system, you are leaving out something important, I think.

Your model is good for an 'ideal body', where we can 'assume a spherical Aikidoka'. In this universe, sure, you can make everything about the subtle, connected, manipulation of a network of oscillating points. But in the real world of an untrained person, the human body (and nervous system) does not follow these constraints. Perhaps your approach is a good visualization for working toward being able to manifest this 'ideal' situation - but that approach needs to be made. When I talk about 'cultivating the body', I am talking about approaching that 'ideal body'. Do not misunderstand this for cultivating 'ordinary strength' though, or seeking a kind of 'physique' which is detached from the spatial reduction your model requires. What we are talking about is developing the ability to connect the body so that it *can* function in such a way that forces propagate ideally through it.

And yes, a kind of strength is required. You can see this clearly by imagining a person whose body is so weak that his bones snap at a touch. This is obviously not enough strength in the body. Even in your idealized world in which forces propagate perfectly through the body, there will still be internal strain on the system - due to the mass of the bones being used to transmit the forces from joint to joint. Either the joints will have to shear apart (and stop behaving like joints), or there has to be something holding them together. That something is the connective component which your model ignores. It is also the component actively developed by the 'traditional paradigm', and it has a lot to do with the breath. I could go into more detail, but I don't think this is the appropriate place to do so.

Since the range of angles from which you can apply forces, and how much force you can apply, (however you view it as being generated) is dependent on the body's overall structural integrity, then conditioning this connective quality is important. Why else would O-Sensei show off about being able to ground forces applied to the side of his bokken? Your model might be usable to analyze how he accomplished that, and I'd be interested in hearing your comprehensive report on how that worked. I think, though, that in order for it to function you will need a very special robot - not just a regular old human body. Otherwise, anyone who understands the 'idea' and has the 'feeling' should be able to duplicate the demonstration. In reality, it's not that simple.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Please frame the elements of your disagreement to show why these rules are not admissible for a given technique or aiki movement. That's all I ask. Contradiction is not argument -- Monty Python notwithstanding ...
Yes it is. (Kidding!)

As above, I don't think your model addresses the question of working with the body to create a sufficiently idealized system for idealized physics to be the whole story. The problem with skipping this aspect of the training is that you can get trapped in the local maximum of technique - even if the technique is 'correct', it may be limiting, just by failing to stimulate the development which would make a wider range of more interesting 'technique' possible. This other aspect is, roughly, the idea behind misogi, or purification. I think that's a fairly comprehensible idea: that the 'non-ideal' properties of bodies are an impediment to the expression of more 'theoretically interesting' tricks.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Or, point out some other exercises or techniques that illustrate the problem I keep hearing alluded to, but I have not yet heard articulated.
Okay, here's another one: O-Sensei resists a push from several people pushing on his forehead. After a while, he throws them. If you just analyze the static component of this demonstration, which is the meat of it, you can see that he is demonstrating two things. 1) He knows how to ground a push against his forehead, and 2) he has a well-conditioned neck and spine, so that he can take a lot of force. If 2) were not important, he wouldn't try to hold the push as long as he could before the throw. In point of fact, the throw is just a graceful way of ending the situation without having to call off the pushers. How would you use gyrodynamics to analyze that example?

-ck
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Old 10-02-2006, 02:32 AM   #78
dps
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
OK. Not the best images for kinematics of hip gyration, but hey, what the hell ...

Thigh push.

First- the attack is set in uke's Anterior/Posterior plane and it is oriented at a slight angle up from the ground.

I see five distinct movements by O-Sensei, all fundamentally part of kokyu tanden ho.

1) A set of the upper torso forward (and thus of the hips slightly back) which, is also a set of the hips slightly off line to O-Sensei's rear.

This slight teeter is rotation in uke's Medio Lateral M/L (cartwheel) plane, in which his attack is not oriented. It cannot be easily seen from the video, but my experience tell me that uke's attack is now slightly offline to his left, i.e. -- the vertical plane of his attack has been shifted left (counter clockwise) about the horizontal plane, by virtue of a rotation in the M/L plane. As a result his balance center is now left of the line and forward.

2) A horizontal gyration (tenkan) of the hips creates a draw rotation of uke tipping him forward toward kuzushi and left (on one limb of the hips' natural figure eight pattern);

This rotation by O-Sensei is in uke's horizontal plane, in which his attack is not oriented. It creates an increase of the A/P moment forward, which leads to further precessional aggravation of the left rotation of the line of attack. Uke is precariously in the edge of kuzushi to the left front.

3) The set of the hips is brought forward again as O-Sensei's torso straightens, warding uke's balance center from collapsing left of the line but closing the center line from recovery forward and right.

This slight reverse teeter is, again, rotation in uke's M/L plane, in which his attack is not oriented. This creates an opposite moment in uke's horizontal plane of rotation (clockwise) from the first teeter but now uke's balance is yet further forward and the rotation moment primarily brings his rear balance component in line along the left edge of that balance envelope. Uke now has virtually no moment arms against the ground to resist further rotations.

4) Then the natural return gyration (irimi - the other limb of the figure eight balance envelope) tips uke into rearward kuzushi and carries uke around out the back of his balance envelope along the left edge along the ikkyo line of the body in a rear roll, to effect the projection outside of his balance system.

The reverse of the first rotation in uke's horizontal plane yields the reverse rotation about the A/P plane, a toppling moment backwards.

5) O-sensei gives a firm irimi closure lean of the thigh out the ikkyo line to ensure the projection and "send him on his way."
t.
You can easily see the hip rotation on O'Sensei.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78502048697656
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:20 AM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
OK. Do that, please. Five easy pieces. No Japanese other than irimi tenkan and kuzushi. Not just what happens but why. Your turn.
Naw... I already did it concisely and with illustrations involving Tohei in a previous post to the forum. I did it completely enough that anything missing can be extrapolated. It's far simpler than you're making it. "Hip gyration" isn't needed, since mainly linear forces are involved.

I think the problem is that you see an object flying straight through the air and you're positing "Oh, it must have been flung from a spinning turntable". I'm saying that an object flying straight through the air came from a more linear device (similar to a pogo-stick) and that the actual power of the device is dependent upon how strong its spring constant is. The "spring constant" has a lot to do with why we train using breathing techniques and exercises like fune kogi undo.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:23 AM   #80
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
You can easily see the hip rotation on O'Sensei.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78502048697656
Excellent slowed down clip. Wish I had some easy clipware.

For clarification in that regard, I was actually analyzing the first example of this technique in Mike's clip, where uke was pushing with his left side, whereas the second example you clipped shows uke pushing with the right.

In this case, chirality does not break symmetry, so if you view David's clip vice the first example in Mike's just swap the L-R orientaton in my analysis, etc. and it is the same dynamic.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:29 AM   #81
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
You can easily see the hip rotation on O'Sensei.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78502048697656
But that's more of an after-effect (uke is already going away) and not something he always does, if you look at the other examples in the videoclip I mentioned. Particularly in the chest push. It's pretty obvious, once you know how to do it, how Ueshiba powers his pushes and I think it's up for most people to figure it out (simple is better than angular momentum and helicopters).

Mike
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Old 10-02-2006, 08:14 AM   #82
eyrie
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

I totally agree. IMHO and equally humble experience, you HAVE to keep it at a simple enough level for even the dullest blade in the drawer.... if you can't teach this stuff to a 9yr old, forget it.. you've lost them coz it's "too hard" to understand. What Ueshiba is doing in the chest push is really simple stuff (when you know how) and how to power it equally basic stuff (if you know how)... which Mike (and others) have already elucidated in numerous other posts. The gems are out there... look for them!

FYI, one of my teenage students of talented mediocrity (who needs to train more consistently!!!) was already able to do this very basic "bounce jin" from seiza after training with me for a mere 9mths. The crux of the matter is being able to teach this stuff to someone with little to no martial arts exposure in the shortest amount of time. My 9yr old son has been training with me for a year and he can already do most waza at a high enough standard that would put many adults that have been training a bit longer to shame.

If I tried to explain what I do in gyrodynamics, rotational dynamics, or angular momentum, he won't understand a word I'm saying. But if I use simple analogies like rubber bands, see-saws and rolling balls, he'll get my drift in a jiff.

Nice theory, for the academically minded, but I would seriously question the appropriateness and practicability.

FWIW, my teachers NEVER explained any of this in physics terms... always simple analogies...

Ignatius
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Old 10-02-2006, 10:16 AM   #83
dps
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

O'Sensei Kokyu Demo Slow

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...64658248953602
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Old 10-02-2006, 11:41 AM   #84
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Naw... I already did it concisely and with illustrations involving Tohei in a previous post to the forum. I did it completely enough that anything missing can be extrapolated. It's far simpler than you're making it. "Hip gyration" isn't needed, since mainly linear forces are involved.
And here I thought tenkan actually meant something was turning.

Mike, really now, with over 1500 posts to your name, maybe just pointing to one or two? I could just as easily have said "Pull out the physics text -- it's in there." I tendered a tad more effort to your gauntlet to address the specific example, which is what I asked you to give me to do. Thank you, BTW.

I asked for your illustration on this example YOU proffered so we can compare notes for the benefit of everyone. It seemed that you were more than adequately prepared to do that. Do you want to engage this discussion or pretend that it is not occurring? You may yet blow me out of the water, which I am prepared to receive ukemi for. If you have the stuff to show, in concrete examples such as this, do it.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I think the problem is that you see an object flying straight through the air and you're positing "Oh, it must have been flung from a spinning turntable". I'm saying that an object flying straight through the air came from a more linear device (similar to a pogo-stick) and that the actual power of the device is dependent upon how strong its spring constant is.
Any obect in eccentric rotation that is released from its centripetal contraint will follow a linear path perpendicular to the centripetal contraint in rotation at the moment of release. If the constraint is eccentric to the CG of the object, and the release is not instaneous, it may impart an internal rotation in the plane of the original rotation as well (think frisbee), unless you think that is also done by pushing springs. I note that not only does uke fly back, but he is rotating along his ikkyo line as he does it.

It may seem simpler to assume a linear input is the cause of a linear result, but it is a fallacious assumption. Merely observing a linear resulting motion does not answer the question. (And please note again the internal rotation imparted to uke in his fall.)

You have not addressed the question of the nature of the kinetic input that resulted in that observed linear motion. You made a simplifying assumption, but it does not foreclose the rotational proposition, which is not really mechanically more complex at all. and it does not answer certain other observations that the rotational answer would predict and that is shown in the example. You propose a linear push in opposition -- I see in the video four distinct sets of "Connect, turn, enter and release." in two different axes of rotation in the nage waza -- all of which I describe in terms of rotational mechanics, but in that plainer language "Connect, turn, enter and release" is very much traditional tenkan-irimi movement of basic kokyu nage.

The only arguably linear element present is the final irimi lean of the thigh which simply maintains the input connection (ki musubi) to fully transmit the constant moment of rotation throughout uke's entire kuzushi movement (constant force, over time = acceleration). Even that is strongly modulated by the hip turn that allows the wieght shift to occur.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The "spring constant" has a lot to do with why we train using breathing techniques and exercises like fune kogi undo.
I don't think fune kogi/funatori/torifune or what ever term is preferred in your neck of the woods, does what you think that it does.

The linear motion you ascribe to that exercise, is not really linear, but a pendular rotation of the torso in the A/P axis. As I was taught the exercise, the hips pivot over the legs about a fixed point on the ground, but the legs compress toward the middle and extend toward at the front and rear, forming an inverted arc of your CG travel.

In the funatori or funekogi exercise the center describes a downward arc from the rear limit to the center of your stance then rising toward the forward limit. Your shoulder girdle forms the axis of swing, and it oscillates back and forth over the the hip center to provide the initiating instability impulse to each swing of to the pendulum. In a proper irimi you essentially just fall into uke as you recover your own balance, like skier just falls down the hill.

This is BTW, the very same reciprocal teetering motion is seen in the video, well before uke's projection backward. I just was avoiding any term so obviously loaded with assumptions.

If you really are doing it laterally, without any vertical arc component, then the only momentum energy you get (even if you could store it in your legs and hip strain) is what lateral linear intertia your muscles can generate, which is 1) not free like gravitational potential, and 2) not as great in kinetic potential as the angular momentum as you can create by rotation and manipulation of radius of turn. An ice skater, uses this to great effect.

In essence, aikido irimi-tenkan is doing the same thing -- creating rotation in the balance system and then gathering in the balance to the center by a centripetal moment, caused by the inertia of the weighted foot with the ground (the crossing of the roughly figure eight path of the balance center) drawing that balance center (your oscillating mid-section mass damper (also known as the Angular Sweep Servo ) into the smallest radius manageable. Angular velocity increases proportional to the radius of turn. Kinetic energy is the square of the velocity.

My funatori motion is comfortably about 25 cm, and my feet are placed laterally about shoulder width apart , approximately the same distance. That is close to what I see O-Sensei moving in the thigh push.

Assume that the initial radius of turn is about half that (Tangent circle) or 12 cm, and that the radius of the balance sweep is brought into to it normal quiet stance excursion radius (see the study I cited and linked) of about 1 cm. The energy of shifting my mass 25 cm , plus the transformed energy of the weight drop that I put into initiating the radial acceleration of the turn, commences the turn. The reduction in radius of rotation inward increases the velocity of the balance center about 12 fold, and since the kinetic energy is the square of the velocity but only proportional to mass, this magnifies the effective energy for work about 144 times.

If my control is as precise as possible (and let us assume O-Sensei's was in the video), then the resulting kinetic energy when released into uke is thus: If you look at the diagram on normal balance center excursions that I cited, you will see that the balance center it can also manage intermittent periodic oscillation of about 0.25 cm diameter or 0.125 cm in radius. This increases the veloocity in inverse proportion to the reduction in radius : 12 / 0.125 = 96 times. The kinetic energy is the square of that veloicty -- on the order of 96*96 = 9216 times the effective energy for work.

All of this efficiency is obtained by obeying ordinary conservation laws.

Show me spring constants with that degree of energy conversion potential.

This funatori is a gain in kinetic energy from the fall energy. You ascribe that to a "spring constant" in your legs and hip undercarriage, but since you rise at the end of that motion, whatever "spring constant" of stored compression strain there may have been is dissipated.

Funatori is exercise in coordinated energy management (on which I think we agree), we just disagree on the energy being managed. It is not technique for application.

In applied technique, the only "storage" of this kinetically captured gravitation potential energy is its successive transformation by the rotational lift of your center and then precessional capture in the turning motion that comes at the end of the irimi movement as the center is rising on the second limb of the arc. No "linear" irimi or fune kogi motion in a technique occurs without a tenkan either preceding it or following it, which the video clearly shows - twice.

The process is reversible, which is the point of the tai no henko exercise, irimi energy is transformed into tenkan. Tai no henko is the mirror image of funatori in terms of energy dynamics.

Mere rotation is sufficent to avoid a strike, but is not sufficient to apply aiki technique, as any rotation that engaged uke's attacking moment in the same plane would directly oppose uke's energy in at least one component of those two axes. The transformation of that rotation by precessional means, moves the energy to a secondary rotation, in the same basic way as the irimi energy is captured in tenkan, or tenkan energy captured in irimi. The rotationally transformed moment energy is now applied where it is not opposed by any component of the angular moment of the attack -- on the two coordinate planes intersecting the torque axis of the attack.

Juji 3D.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:04 PM   #85
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If I tried to explain what I do in gyrodynamics, rotational dynamics, or angular momentum, he won't understand a word I'm saying. But if I use simple analogies like rubber bands, see-saws and rolling balls, he'll get my drift in a jiff.

FWIW, my teachers NEVER explained any of this in physics terms... always simple analogies...
"What is aikido?" Simple analogies are not what IT IS. What we do is NOT SIMPLE, although the tools (balance and instability) we use to do it are very common indeed.

As I have said, the point is not to substitute anything that works as a convenient teaching aid but to build a complementary foundation (or better yet, a connecting bridge between two rich palaces) to enable the comprehension of aikido in as thorough and deep a manner in Western idiom as it is understood in the idiom of East Asian natural philosophy.

It is incorrect to assume that just because that form of knowledge works by principle of similarity rather than principle of difference, it is thereby any LESS complex or less rigorous to learn properly as Western learning is. Full comprehension of ki, kokyu, jin, and a whole host of other holistic principles embodied in that cultural complex is the work of a lifetime to master.

What we lack is a Western complement to that tradition, which may allow some of the same simplifications of root native concepts tofunction here, as simiplifications of root native concepts function in Japan. That effort will allow a deeper penetration of aikido into Western culture than it appears to be capable of now.

We cannot start with the simplifications, or the terms of reference to the root concepts will be skewed from the beginning, as I think this discussion is beginning to show.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:09 PM   #86
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
And here I thought tenkan actually meant something was turning.
You keep confusing the waza with the basic strength... I've said this a number of times.
Quote:

Mike, really now, with over 1500 posts to your name, maybe just pointing to one or two? I could just as easily have said "Pull out the physics text -- it's in there." I tendered a tad more effort to your gauntlet to address the specific example, which is what I asked you to give me to do. Thank you, BTW.
Hmmmmm. Mark Freeman.... do you remember what the thread was? I know you were in the discussion. Erick, I don't mind talking about the basic theories up to a level, but there's a level I don't want to get into, mainly for the reason that there are some "body tricks" involved that I try to avoid because it will get some beginners to focus on the tricks and not the basic training/ideas/principles.
Quote:
The only arguably linear element present is the final irimi lean of the thigh which simply maintains the input connection (ki musubi) to fully transmit the constant moment of rotation throughout uke's entire kuzushi movement (constant force, over time = acceleration). Even that is strongly modulated by the hip turn that allows the wieght shift to occur.
I would suggest again that it's a lot simpler than that. If you look at a picture of O-Sensei simply standing there when someone pushes him.. and that's the same core force he uses in all kokyu-nage's, etc.... and if you still think that he's doing that rooted standing in some sort of "gyro-dynamic" way, then I don't know what to tell you.
Quote:
I don't think fune kogi/funatori/torifune or what ever term is preferred in your neck of the woods, does what you think that it does.

The linear motion you ascribe to that exercise, is not really linear, but a pendular rotation of the torso in the A/P axis. As I was taught the exercise, the hips pivot over the legs about a fixed point on the ground, but the legs compress toward the middle and extend toward at the front and rear, forming an inverted arc of your CG travel.
You're describing an arc opposite to the way O-Sensei does it on film, though. My comment is about the importance of the back and forth part of the fune-kogi-undo for beginners. The up and down part I'm not going to comment on in a public forum, at the present time. But I will say that I think you're doing a long and wasted analysis and missing the fairly simple point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:14 PM   #87
dps
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
.... and if you still think that he's doing that rooted standing in some sort of "gyro-dynamic" way, then I don't know what to tell you.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1456057

Paradoxical muscle contractions and the neural control of movement and balance

Richard C Fitzpatrick and Simon C Gandevia

Prince of Wales Medical Research Institute, Sydney, New South Wales, 2031, Australia

Email: r.fitzpatrick@unsw.edu.au
" Loram et al. (2005b) go on to show how the brain and the muscle solve this load problem. Since ‘static' equilibrium cannot be achieved by continuous muscle contraction, the system adopts a pattern of cyclic muscle activation, producing repeated ballistic, catch-and-throw movements of the body. The behaviour resembles keeping a balloon in the air by repeated hits. Over time, the balloon maintains a mean position, which might seem an equilibrium point, but at no time does it stay in static equilibrium; it is either being accelerated upward as it is hit or it is in free fall.

Standing is a dynamic activity. It has been believed that normal body sway comes from small perturbation forces, either internal to the body (respiration) or external (breezes); limited sensory acuity to detect body movement; receptor noise; motor output noise; or movement generated by the brain. What Loram et al. (2005b) show is entirely different. A major cause of human body sway arises from this cyclic pattern of catch-and-throw ballistic muscle activation."



Human postural sway results from frequent, ballistic bias impulses by soleus and gastrocnemius.

* Loram ID,
* Maganaris CN,
* Lakie M.

Applied Physiology Research Group, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Birmingham B15 2TT, UK. i.d.loram@bham.ac.uk

It has been widely assumed for nearly a century, that postural muscles operate in a spring-like manner and that muscle length signals joint angle (the mechano-reflex mechanism). Here we employ automated analysis of ultrasound images to resolve calf muscle (soleus and gastrocnemius) length changes as small as 10 mum in standing subjects. Previously, we have used balancing of a real inverted pendulum to make predictions about human standing. Here we test and confirm these predictions on 10 subjects standing quietly. We show that on average the calf muscles are actively adjusted 2.6 times per second and 2.8 times per unidirectional sway of the body centre of mass (CoM). These alternating, small (30-300 microm) movements provide impulsive, ballistic regulation of CoM movement. The timing and pattern of these adjustments are consistent with multisensory integration of all information regarding motion of the CoM, pattern recognition, prediction and planning using internal models and are not consistent with control solely by local reflexes. Because the system is unstable, errors in stabilization provide a perturbation which grows into a sway which has to be reacted to and corrected. Sagittal sway results from this impulsive control of calf muscle activity rather than internal sources (e.g. the heart, breathing). This process is quite unlike the mechano-reflex paradigm. We suggest that standing is a skilled, trial and error activity that improves with experience and is automated (possibly by the cerebellum). These results complement and extend our recent demonstration that paradoxical muscle movements are the norm in human standing.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15661824

PMID: 15661824 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last edited by dps : 10-02-2006 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:18 PM   #88
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

You're missing the point completely, unfortunately. There is more to "rooting" than is included in that article, by a long shot.
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:36 PM   #89
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You're missing the point completely, unfortunately. There is more to "rooting" than is included in that article, by a long shot.
And your scientific explaination with references is.......
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Old 10-02-2006, 01:40 PM   #90
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
And your scientific explaination with references is.......
Same post I referenced Erick to and a few others in various other threads. Not, mind you, that I'm trying to convince you. I think it's fun to watch just as it is. If you knew how to do these things, you wouldn't be taking this side of the conversation with these kinds of questions. A lot of people already know how to do these things that read this forum. Ergo, you're saying a lot about what you understand about basics to a lot of people.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 10-02-2006, 02:14 PM   #91
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Same post I referenced Erick to and a few others in various other threads. Not, mind you, that I'm trying to convince you. I think it's fun to watch just as it is. If you knew how to do these things, you wouldn't be taking this side of the conversation with these kinds of questions. A lot of people already know how to do these things that read this forum. Ergo, you're saying a lot about what you understand about basics to a lot of people.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Ditto
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Old 10-02-2006, 03:24 PM   #92
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

"Ditto"???? You've posted explanations with illustrations on AikiWeb? I never saw them.

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Old 10-02-2006, 05:45 PM   #93
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
"What is aikido?" Simple analogies are not what IT IS. What we do is NOT SIMPLE, although the tools (balance and instability) we use to do it are very common indeed.
When you say "we", perhaps you mean the royal "we"? What I do and teach is very simple - as it was taught to me by my teachers - a point that was consistently reinforced to me time after time - this stuff is simple.

What is not simple is getting the body, mind and intent coordination working together as a cohesive unit - THAT takes anywhere from 10yrs to a lifetime to master.

I think you are confusing what Aikido (the Art - or rather the Path of Aiki) is, and what the learning tools are for transmission of the body skills under discussion.

Quote:
As I have said, the point is not to substitute anything that works as a convenient teaching aid but to build a complementary foundation (or better yet, a connecting bridge between two rich palaces) to enable the comprehension of aikido in as thorough and deep a manner in Western idiom as it is understood in the idiom of East Asian natural philosophy.
I don't see any incongruence between the Laws of Physics and the East Asian teaching modality of adherence to Laws of Nature. As Mike has pointed out before, and I agree, these things can be described using levers, pulleys and Newtonian mechanics. I would add, it can also be described in far more comprehensive ways without recourse to Physics 101.

I just think your theory of choice is way off the mark in terms of what we are discussing.

Quote:
It is incorrect to assume that just because that form of knowledge works by principle of similarity rather than principle of difference, it is thereby any LESS complex or less rigorous to learn properly as Western learning is. Full comprehension of ki, kokyu, jin, and a whole host of other holistic principles embodied in that cultural complex is the work of a lifetime to master.
Not to name drop here, but Prof. Rick Clark once told me to look for the similarities rather than the differences. A point that was consistently reinforced by other teachers I have had, more notably, Patrick McCarthy.

It's not that the Eastern traditions are less complex or rigorous, it's a diametrically opposed teaching modality to the modern Western perspective of "education". The Latin root of the word "education", educaré, means to "draw out" - the very same modality by which the Eastern paradigm operates - to draw it out of the student.

Zen 101 - it's not the finger... and it's not the waza.

Ignatius
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Old 10-02-2006, 06:47 PM   #94
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

When your students asked for a deeper meaning for what they are practicing, will your explanations be in Eastern philosophy and mysticism?
The martial arts has a history of hiding meaning by not explaining or explaining in terms unintelligible, to be revealed only to who the teacher deems worthy. That is the tradition of your modality of teaching.
Science has a more open tradition of sharing knowledge for all to use.
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Old 10-02-2006, 06:54 PM   #95
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Hi David,

There is no need to resort to scientific explanations, theory and hypotheses - I feel they detract from the "real" lesson at hand. Always in simple non-esoteric terms.... as my teachers taught.

Like Mr Miyagi (God bless his soul) showing Daniel-san the secret of his family's karate....

PS: FWIW, Patrick McCarthy never used physics to explain what he was doing... always very simple explanations, so the principle was easily and quickly grasped. You don't need to confuse the student any further with all that high-falutin theoretical claptrap....

Last edited by eyrie : 10-02-2006 at 07:00 PM.

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Old 10-02-2006, 07:52 PM   #96
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But that's more of an after-effect (uke is already going away) and not something he always does, if you look at the other examples in the videoclip I mentioned. Particularly in the chest push. It's pretty obvious, once you know how to do it, how Ueshiba powers his pushes and I think it's up for most people to figure it out (simple is better than angular momentum and helicopters).
OK, I have looked at the chest push.

First of all, note that uke grabs with the gyakku hand, and is coming around. Very poor position for a uke to perform ikkyo munedori kuzushi or munetsuki combination.

You can see uke's free hand seriously lagging his torso, initially, indicating a pronunced uchi turn of the body toward O-Sensei. It seems to me like the intended attack was therefore coming around for the ushiro kubishime with the free hand. Great attack -- choking the opponent out with opposing lapels.

I know if I had been tasked with attacking O-Sensei I would be more than hesitant to make a full frontal charge.

At first glance it seems that has uke has just carried himself into a munedori sumi-otoshi from the barest irimi. However, his fall is not to his right, in front to O-Sensei, which would be expected in sumi-otoshi, but to his left, away. And O-Sensei's body is turning toward his right at the end of the technique, also away from the sumi-otoshi to his front left.

It looks like a very subtle sokumen iriminage movement.

The munedori attack is coming from the belly upward. The attack is in the A/P vertical plane with pitch upward.

What I do see O-Sensei doing is consistent with what I have said about the pendular funatori/funekogi motion.

O-Sensei begins to drop his center into the funatori swing forward of the hips meeting the attack. The irimi connects early, from the right of uke's line. Horizontal plane rotation (clockwise) is induced by the offset of the arm to uke's right. This provokes more angular moment (pitch up) in the A/P plane adding to the rotation of his seigan rotation (pitch up) momentarily, carrying his hips too far forward, and thus dropping his center and beginning the rearward toppling moment.

Uke's outside arm is stil lagging to this point, so his uchi turn has not been disrupted yet. His progress turning clockwise around O-Sensei for the attack has been stalled, but not reversed.

O-Sensei moves in, rising into an abbreviated sokumen turn, so much so that he basically ends up poised on one foot. The rise shifts uke's right shoulder further forward and up, thus shifting his left shoulder back and down, creating a reversal of the turn of the torso from uchi to soto on the horiztonal plane, beginning an ikkyo line rotati of his body. The whipsaw shift of the torso causes his left arm to now swing suddenly forward ahead of the left shoulder, which is being shifted back by the change of direction in torso rotation.

O-Sensei pivots to his right (clockwise) on the right foot, rising into the throw, rotating in the horizontal plane. The rise causes uke to rotate in the M/L plane, cartwheeling to the left. The turn to the right (just like the earlier clockwise turn caused by irimi to the offline right arm) aggravates the rotation in the A/P plane toppling backward. O-Sensei brings his rear leg into the center of the turn (and thus the hip and the balance center) from behind him to center (reducing radius of his rightward turn turn and increasing the energy in the movement), and then finishes with continued ki musubi irimi by settling his weight gently down into the throw that has already begun.

I see too much rotation in and corrrelated resposne in differnet axes to ignore as irrelevant. There is not enough sudden linear movement to create the accleration impulse that uke obviously is experiencing.

The decreasing radius turn is very deceptive in terms of its energy because the smaller it becomes -- the more powerful it is, and the harder it is to see. I hold that this is a truth of techniques recognized almost universally among schools of aikido. I feel firmly convinced by the evidence Mike has given, that this rotational dynamic is a significant part of aikido function.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-02-2006, 07:58 PM   #97
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1456057

Paradoxical muscle contractions and the neural control of movement and balance

Richard C Fitzpatrick and Simon C Gandevia

Prince of Wales Medical Research Institute, Sydney, New South Wales, 2031, Australia

Email: r.fitzpatrick@unsw.edu.au
" Loram et al. (2005b) go on to show how the brain and the muscle solve this load problem. Since ‘static' equilibrium cannot be achieved by continuous muscle contraction, the system adopts a pattern of cyclic muscle activation, producing repeated ballistic, catch-and-throw movements of the body. The behaviour resembles keeping a balloon in the air by repeated hits. Over time, the balloon maintains a mean position, which might seem an equilibrium point, but at no time does it stay in static equilibrium; it is either being accelerated upward as it is hit or it is in free fall.
Nice to know someone reads it and gets it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:13 PM   #98
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
When you say "we", perhaps you mean the royal "we"?
You, me Mike, David Chi'med and anyone who remotely has attempted to imitate an aikido waza successfully.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
What I do and teach is very simple - as it was taught to me by my teachers - a point that was consistently reinforced to me time after time - this stuff is simple.
The tools are common, the application is not. I can whack stone into chunks fairly well, but Michelangelo with the same hammer and chisel made the Pieta. It is art, it does not use any function that my body does not already have -- it lacks only a spirit and will and training.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I don't see any incongruence between the Laws of Physics and the East Asian teaching modality of adherence to Laws of Nature.
Because there is none.
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
As Mike has pointed out before, and I agree, these things can be described using levers, pulleys and Newtonian mechanics.
And Mike is just dead wrong on that. You cannot generate the kinetic energy by the human body in linear motion that gyration can produce and manipulate.

There is a fundamental physical reason why we abandoned the direct impulse linear piston along with the steam engine steam engine in favor of rotary driveshafts and torque converters. You can turn things faster and harder more efficiently than you can push them. Rotate the refrigerator up on one corner and spin it around 180 degrees and set it down again. Now try pushing it back. You tell me how it compares.

Gyrodynamics is entirely newtonian. Really, I haven't spun up to relativistic velocity in, oh .. must be years now

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Not to name drop here, but Prof. Rick Clark once told me to look for the similarities rather than the differences. ...It's not that the Eastern traditions are less complex or rigorous, it's a diametrically opposed teaching modality to the modern Western perspective of "education".
That sums up what distinguishes traditional East Asian learning from Western analytical knowledge. Holistic versus reductionist. They are opposed, but only as the sets of muscles in my arm are opposed. If one set overpowers the other I am as crippled or musclebound as if I had neither. I am about rectifying the disuse of one of them in aikido.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
The Latin root of the word "education", educaré, means to "draw out" - the very same modality by which the Eastern paradigm operates - to draw it out of the student.
In which case one only draws out what was poured in in the first place. Not an etymological argument to pursue too far. I have had many very good lessons forcefully impressed into me ... But, in granting your point, it shows the importance of finding common references to deeper relevant Western physical knowledge (and other types I might add).

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:21 PM   #99
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You keep confusing the waza with the basic strength... I've said this a number of times.
Aikido requires the strength to strand up straight and walk stably. Everything else is waza and proper perception. That -- or its not aikido. I have seen rank beginners grasp a waza at an advanced age and be amazed that their own well-understood physical limtations did not matter if the waza was correct.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
... there's a level I don't want to get into, ... I try to avoid ... I would suggest again ... it's a lot simpler than that.
"Springs," yes I know. The "springs" in the legs aren't. Muscles only pull in tension, they cannot push in compression. What they pull on is a bone the other side of a joint. They create leverage across the fulcrum of the joint to ROTATE the joint to produce the leverage moment (push) delivered by the limb.

So riddle me this -- rotate or push -- which one is the primary action and which one the secondary??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
and if you still think that he's doing that rooted standing in some sort of "gyro-dynamic" way, then I don't know what to tell you.
Well, that much is clear. You don't have to take the time nor interst to read the resources I provided. But kindly respect that they have empricial information that may not support your contention,as some may have discovered in reading them. They show that what we know empirically about the bipedal balance system DOES NOT WORK according to the static spring model. It is ruled out.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You're describing an arc opposite to the way O-Sensei does it on film, though.
He did it that way on the film you provided -- both of them. You asked, I described.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
My comment is about the importance of the back and forth part of the fune-kogi-undo for beginners. The up and down part I'm not going to comment on in a public forum, at the present time. But I will say that I think you're doing a long and wasted analysis and missing the fairly simple point.
So simple, apparently, it is inexpressible.

The beauty of aikido as an art to me is that it has relieved me of the fear that my ego will get bruised should I get knocked over. That too is part of the waza. There is no waza or concept a beginner in aikido cannot get to some degree. They simply cannot get it completely all the time, or in every waza they attempt. Paternalism has no place in budo. Let them fall over .

I will say what I think in public or not and invite direct attacks on my position. In fairness, you have not made any direct attack, but only suggestion, allusion, inuendo and rhetoric. In aikido, I do not consider this a compliment -- it is clever, and entertaining to a point but ultimately, pointless sophistry.

Speak your mind or don't. I am not offended either way. I am only annoyed by having to dig out your contrary position with earthmoving tools so I can grasp what relevance it may have. One runs the risk of being simply ignored if one persists in refusing to say anything concrete.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:34 PM   #100
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Re: What is "Aikido"?

Here is a way to teach students without using either teaching modality.


http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...&ref=sciammind

Electrical Current Used to Control Human Walk
Walking upright separates humans from most other creatures. Our bipedal gait is a wonder of balance but it remains unclear exactly how our brains manage to maintain this posture and use it to arrive at desired destinations. Now researchers have shown that the balance mechanisms of our inner ears play a decisive role in directing the human walk, as well as demonstrating that blindfolded volunteers can be steered by simple electrical current.

Richard Fitzpatrick of the University of New South Wales in Australia and his colleagues gathered five men and five women and set them on a path. After staring at a target six meters (20 feet) away, the subjects were blindfolded and the researchers began running a slight electrical current through electrodes placed behind their ears. The current disrupted the constant electrical signaling produced by the sensory hair cells in the three canals of the inner ear. (They fire 90 times a second when the head is at rest.) Their continuous firing rate tells the brain exactly how the head is moving, which the brain then uses to maintain balance and direction.
But when that signaling is disrupted, either by increasing or decreasing its rate, walking chaos ensues. The researchers could drive the subject to either the right or left depending on the direction of the current, basically convincing the brain that the head was rotating in a given direction and forcing it to make concomitant adjustments in the direction of the walk in order to arrive at the now misperceived goal. Further, if the researchers asked the subjects to tilt their heads forward toward the ground or backward toward the sky they would veer off course by an even greater degree. And when subjects held their heads only slightly back, the current completely disrupted their balance, inducing swaying and stumbling.

The research shows that the human walk depends on the accuracy of the signals of these tiny hair cells in the ear. Further experiments in the Sydney Botanic Gardens proved that researchers could guide a blindfolded subject through its meandering pathways via electrical cues alone. "By manually adjusting the stimulus intensity and polarity we could, by remote radio control, steer freely walking subjects so that they kept to the paths and avoided obstacles for periods of many minutes," the team writes in the paper presenting the research in this week's Current Biology. "Stimulation techniques developed from those that we used here will provide a fundamental understanding of the processes of spatial representation and transformation in the brain and thus lead the way to diagnostic, therapeutic and virtual-reality applications." --David Biello

Last edited by dps : 10-02-2006 at 09:42 PM.
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