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Old 04-04-2001, 05:31 AM   #1
ian
 
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Circle

Do you think it is possible to get Satori through aikido, and does anyone know of anyone to whom this has happened. You would think it more likely than through meditation since Zen masters spent half their time slapping each other.

Also, do you think satori is cultural (or psychological) and that it is more difficult for people with a traditional Western backround to attain, or is it experienced but interpreted differently.

Ian

(P.S. excluding Ueshiba, he obviously had a lot of associated spiritual practise)

[Edited by ian on April 4, 2001 at 05:34am]
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Old 04-04-2001, 08:29 PM   #2
tedehara
 
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Circle Satori

Quote:
ian wrote:
Do you think it is possible to get Satori through aikido, and does anyone know of anyone to whom this has happened. You would think it more likely than through meditation since Zen masters spent half their time slapping each other.

Also, do you think satori is cultural (or psychological) and that it is more difficult for people with a traditional Western backround to attain, or is it experienced but interpreted differently.

Ian

(P.S. excluding Ueshiba, he obviously had a lot of associated spiritual practise)

[Edited by ian on April 4, 2001 at 05:34am]
Wow! Let me toss my 2cents in.

I believe satori is definitely psychological, since it has historically affected people of different cultures (Hindu, Chinese, Korean & Japanese).

Zen masters do not slap each other. However, it is a practice during zazen for a priest to strike a meditator on the back with a flat wooden stick, just to keep them awake. I'm told that if the priest really know what he's doing, he'll strike two accupuncture points on the back, that stimulates mental alertness.

There are different degrees of satori. Perhaps you've already experience it. A sudden insight in an aikido technique can count as a minor satori, just like creating a good haiku verse. Most people think of satori as a divine kick-in-the-pants by God, but from all that's written about it, its an insight into daily life.

If you can remain relaxed and centered in your life, like you should be on the mat, then you're headed in the right direction. Hunting for satori is like looking all over the house for your lost keys, when they're just in your pocket.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 04-04-2001, 10:24 PM   #3
jedd
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Smile

Hi there, here are my two cents worth regarding Satori . To begin, from my brief introduction to it through reading, it seems that the western mind once again assumes that Satori, enlightenment, nirvana etc., are "obtained" if only one practices this or that or pays out enough penance. Unfortunatley, the western market economy has infiltrated every aspect of our lives to a point where everything, including spiritual development, is bought, sold, or "obtained" through specific practices. In my opinion, spiritual development should include freedom from greedy and unhealthy desires (this includes the selfish drive to attain Satori). Aikido is a martial art, it can help us relate better with others and discipline our minds and bodies. However, I know many people who go to church every Sunday yet treat their fellow Man like animals. We should all try to develop ourselves through interaction and positive development of others. Don't get me wrong, I understand the personal human need for spirituality. This quest, however, can become an obsession which may lead to further isolation from others---don't forget we are social animals, we need each other.

Thanks



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Old 04-21-2001, 07:30 AM   #4
davoravo
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I thought the whole reason O-Sensei founded Aikido was so that we could experience Satori (through the martial arts). Theoretically there is no other reason to do Aikido (in practical terms, of course, there is).

David McNamara
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Old 04-21-2001, 01:15 PM   #5
Matt Banks
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Satori

I think it can be achieved through hard training. I read of some aikidoka in the yoshinkan who regularly practice mediatation under ice cold waterfalls in japan. There is mention of it in ''angry white pyjamas'' they realised that there bodies where just shells of who they were, they no longer felt the cold etc. Thats why I love to train hard, as the phsycological stuff you go through is really exilerating.


Here is Zen coern for you all.

If you meet a Zen master on the road what do you say to him?

Ill tell you the answer I was told in a later post.




Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 04-21-2001, 01:59 PM   #6
Jim23
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Ancient Zen Scripture

Meeting a Zen master on the road,
Face him neither with words nor silence.
Give him an uppercut
And you will be called one who understands Zen.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-22-2001, 06:25 PM   #7
Kenn
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OK, now my two cents worth, or perhaps it's only worth one cent, you decide.

My first and major exposure to Satori was from my favorite book, "The Way of the Peaceful Warrior" by dan millman.

In it, Satori is described as that moment when there is no longer an "I" performing an activity, because "YOU" become the action....

Based on this I personally feel I have achieved, or felt Satori....or have "become the action" so to speak while engaging in Tai Chi Chu'an..Practicing Aikido...as well as drawing, painting and playing my guitar.

It seems to me, Satori is actually a very basic concept which people tend tocomplicate....It is the realization, not the knowing, but the realization that we are the universe....and this happens when thought disipates and only action remains....

Just my opinion...btw, I love this subject, so feel free to private message me on this..or perhaps we can chat on AIM, MSN or Yahoomessenger.

Peace all

Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 04-23-2001, 06:40 AM   #8
Matt Banks
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well done

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
Ancient Zen Scripture

Meeting a Zen master on the road,
Face him neither with words nor silence.
Give him an uppercut
And you will be called one who understands Zen.

Jim23
Superb Jim23-son. That is my favourite co-ern. Have you any favourites?


Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 04-23-2001, 08:34 AM   #9
Jim23
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These are not actually all zen, but they're kinda zenish (some are more zenner than others?).

---
Water which is too pure has no fish.

---
It is not the same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring.

---
Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be attained only by someone who is detached.

---
When an ordinary man attains knowledge, he is a sage; when a sage attains understanding, he is an ordinary man.

---
Two monks were once travelling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was falling. Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection. "Come on, girl," said the first monk. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud. The second monk did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he said. "It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there,: the first monk said. "Are you still carrying her?"

---
One day Chuang-tzu and a friend were walking along a riverbank. "How delightfully the fishes are enjoying themselves in the water!" Chuang-tzu exclaimed.

"You are not a fish," his friend said. "How do you know whether or not the fishes are enjoying themselves?"

"You are not me," Chuang-tzu said. "How do you know that I do not know that the fishes are enjoying themselves?"

---

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 04-23-2001, 01:08 PM   #10
Nick
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someone's been flipping through their little Zen companion...

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 04-23-2001, 01:24 PM   #11
Jim23
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Nick strikes again (with an uppercut?).

Right on.

Jim23

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Old 04-28-2001, 09:13 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Aikido as Koan

Here's one for you.
If Nage is blending with the energy of the uke and Uke is blending with the energy of Nage, who is it that controls the technique?

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-29-2001, 01:58 AM   #13
Nick
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neither has control, but neither does not.

Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 05-04-2001, 07:27 AM   #14
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Greetings.

I firmly belive that aikido as would any other martial art trained with the purpose of beeing a budo could lead to satori. But i doubt that this would occur without practicing zazen and having a religous teacher as well as a sensei. Being a buddhist practicing both i would say that ryu putting emphasis on bukiwaza and keeping in touch with the budo heritage would have a slight advantage. Traditionally kongo zen or warrior zen has mostly accompanied ryuha concentrating on sword- tech's and sword combat is a very powerful metafor in warrior koan. But still without separate religious teaching i doubt that a ordinary aikido teacher would suffice to provide you with proper instruction to reach enlightenment. But who knows.......?

Jappzz
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Old 05-04-2001, 03:40 PM   #15
Kenn
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Jappz,

I must disagree. I have had no formal Zen training and have studied Aikido for about a year. Before that I studied Kung Fu and Tai Chi Chu'an for aprox. 3 years....I personally have felt what I believe to have been "satori experiences"... Now, where we may differ is our definition of Satori. As I stated earlier in this post, my exposure to Satori first came from the Dan Millman Book "The Way of the Peaceful Warrior".

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 05-05-2001, 08:24 AM   #16
andrew
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Re: Aikido as Koan

Quote:
Originally posted by George S. Ledyard
Here's one for you.
If Nage is blending with the energy of the uke and Uke is blending with the energy of Nage, who is it that controls the technique?
Whoever is rooted in the earth, which is big enough to move both.
andrew
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Old 05-05-2001, 04:39 PM   #17
Richard Harnack
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Lightbulb Satori

Ian-
Satori is a transient state of "enlightenment" that does not mean a thing if the person experiencing it does not follow up by integrating the experience into the rest of their life. Nirvana is when you have deepened your Satori to the point of no longer concerning yourself if you remain here or not.

As to experiencing Satori in Aikido, it is possible. (Saying Satori is "desirable" misses the point not to mention engendering a whole downward spiral, cf the Four Noble Truths.) However, only you can know if it was Satori or not. If it was, then the first statement in the above paragraph is operating. If you cannot find a way of integrating it into your life and training, then by definition it was not a true Satori.

Is Satori "psychological"? Show me your mind. Where is it when you leave the room? In other words, we use the term "psychological" in the West to indicate with a "safe" word something which we do not really comprehend. Satori is also "spiritual" and "physical". The problem is, if you have experienced it, then the question becomes moot. If you have not experienced it, the question and explanation seem important.

Satori is not the goal, neither is it the journey. Train, train, train. "Practice your Aikido in a vibrant and Joyful Spirit."

(Ian- Do you want my answer to "What is Zen?"!?)

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 05-30-2001, 12:54 PM   #18
ian
 
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Cheers Richard,

good points - though it leads me to think that satori may by psychological and not physical.

Ian
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Old 05-30-2001, 03:37 PM   #19
Richard Harnack
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Smile "Psychological" = "Cyclological"

Sorry for the bad pun Ian (are there any good puns?), however, saying Satori is "psychological" further engenders difficulties because of the essential mind - body dualism endemic to Western thought (Plato should have known Chuang Tzu, he would not have put anyone in a cave). The same is true about saying it is physical.

Awareness is both mental and physical. Satori is a special type of awareness (yet at the same moment I type this I know I am not telling the complete truth) which includes a "spiritual" dimension.

Suffice it to say, I strongly suspect this is why Zen masters hit their disciples because there really are not any good words to get you there.

A map is still a map, it is not the journey nor the destination.

Good luck Ian.
Ta-ta

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 05-31-2001, 11:36 AM   #20
Jon Adams
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Life is. I am unfamiliar with the term Satori although I have studied some eastern philosophy (Rig Veda, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Te-Tao Ching, and Book of Chuang Tzu just so you know where I am coming from). Enlightenment as I have understood it is pure awarenesss and with that awareness realizing that there is no seperation just unity. The ego or self is what makes us believe of a seperateness, since it exists on conflict and sorrow.

Trying to pinpoint an experience profound enough to be labeled as what you call Satori is counter to the point. The experience just was, it can be neither physical nor mental since there is no distinction. Life just is. Trying to find the distinction just drives enlightenment further away.

I am still a student, so further views are welcome.
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Old 06-01-2001, 09:28 PM   #21
Chocolateuke
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I believe that if you look hard enough in anything music aikido anything you will find God or enlightment. O- sensi looked and looked and was obssesed with Aikido ( or martial arts in general) and farming. it is true he was religoused to but he found enlightment through martial arts and farming ( that is how I understand) so, Aikido mucis or anything will get you to enlightment but only if you look hard and try to accually find that. that is my beliefe only but hey...

Dallas Adolphsen
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