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Old 09-20-2006, 10:46 PM   #1
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
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Re: Children and adults together

Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote:
All I know is that there are no kids (and no women) that train at my aikido dojo and I am greatful. There are kids at the hapkido dojo that I attended for the past year, and they sure could make things difficult for everybody involved.
You're glad you don't have to train with women? or do you mean just the kids? If you mean the women, too, "them are fightin' words here." (and a whole other topic of coversation)

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
Wow, I never knew anyone who had trained with him... I do have a friend of mine up here in Seattle that actually had a date with Ted Bundy when she was in high school. You can imagine how she felt when the news broks about him!
My friend tried to set me up with Edward Humphries who was the initial suspect in the Gainesville murders. I hung out with him and my friend for a day swimming and cooking out right in Melbourne, Florida. He had a lot of marks against him to begin with but his life there was ruined due to being suspected of those ghastly murders.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:36 AM   #2
hapkidoike
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Re: Children and adults together

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote:
You're glad you don't have to train with women? or do you mean just the kids? If you mean the women, too, "them are fightin' words here." (and a whole other topic of coversation)
.
I guess that is exactly what I mean. I am sure there are lots of women (aikidoka and others) who could teach me something, kick my ass, or both. But my experience has been that classes segregated by sex work out better. I say that not only as a student of martial arts, but also as a teacher. I teach at 4 different public schools in Korea (about 2 hrs a day on the motorcycle, good fun). Of those four 2 are middle schools. One segragates the sexes, the other does not. Of thesse two schools the one with segragated classes does exceptionally better (at least in my classes) than the one that does not. I am not suggesting that we segragate the sexes all the time. I am saying I enjoy it more and I think the training (whatever that may be) is more focused that is all.
There was one woman I looked forward to working out with, she is a 4th dan in hapkido, can do spinkicks over my head with ease (which is hot) and is one of the most martial people I have ever met. I would not say that I have a philosophical or ethical objection to working out with women, it is just that I have had some bad experiences with them in the past, and class runs smoother when theyre not involved (I would say that it would be fair to assume that the inverse is true also) .
Just my observations about classes I have been to.
later
bettis
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:24 AM   #3
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Ugh. The last sex-segregated thing I did was a bachelor getaway weekend at a cabin, prior to a friend's wedding. Men behave horribly when no women are around. It was both disgusting and boring. I came away thinking that if I had to live in a sex-segregated society, I'd kill myself. One of the main things I like about Aikido is that there are lots of women involved and it's not some sweaty jockstrap, towel-snapping boys club.

Another thing, I have done a bit of hostel travelling. From my experience and talking to people who run hostels, it turns out that mixed-sex dorm rooms tend to work better than single sex. The men are cleaner and the women are more friendly. I consider separating the sexes an artifact of a less civilized era.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:02 PM   #4
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

I hate sex-segregated practice. It's a: unrealistic, and b: boring.

We have much to learn from each other, men and women, and segregating the sexes simply reinforces stereotypical training. Unless you can practice effectively and with intent with someone half your size or half-again your size, you ain't training right.

My MLE interviewed a (THE US Army) boxing coach 2-3 years ago, asking about his views on teaching women. He said, if you won't train women, you shouldn't train anybody.

I agree. And add the conjunction 'with' ...

cg

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Old 09-21-2006, 12:03 PM   #5
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Isaac wrote:
I guess that is exactly what I mean
I'm not sure this is exactly what you mean, unless you are exactly in middle-school. I can see how things could work better through segregation at such a young age, mainly due to the beginnings of behavior patterns inspiring conflict amongst youngsters that they have no experience (nor concept of motivation) in controlling them. Or in other words, until boys and girls learn otherwise, boys will continue to be boys, and girls will be girls, in the traditional sense of dominant and passive roles.

If you insist the same holds for adults, well that is indeed a throw-back. I don't know how inflammatory this next comment might be, because I'm not female, but I am of the opinion that training in martial arts, and so in aikido, is more important for women than men. Training with women would be worthwhile, but to restrict them to such is nonsense, as they will most likely need to employ martial arts against men. I have no figures handy, (a sin of responsible posting, I know) but I'll bet my life's earnings, before and after today, that the odds favor most violent acts being commited by the male of our fine species.

In short, Isaac, I see what you mean, but do you see what you say?

michael.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:53 PM   #6
E.D. Gordon
Dojo: Shobukan Maryland
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Children and adults is nothing like men and women

Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote:
I guess that is exactly what I mean. I am sure there are lots of women (aikidoka and others) who could teach me something, kick my ass, or both.
I trust you will continue in your quest for this. ;-)

Quote:
But my experience has been that classes segregated by sex work out better.
In middle school, perhaps. For adults, the truth is that we have to work together. I understand that cultures in the East, perhaps especially Korea, may be different. However, evolution is what happens, if we don't remain in the past or just die out. Sex segregation is dinosaurian. It may still light fires, but the players are all dead.

Quote:
I say that not only as a student of martial arts, but also as a teacher. I teach at 4 different public schools in Korea (about 2 hrs a day on the motorcycle, good fun). Of those four 2 are middle schools. One segragates the sexes, the other does not. Of thesse two schools the one with segragated classes does exceptionally better (at least in my classes) than the one that does not. I am not suggesting that we segragate the sexes all the time. I am saying I enjoy it more and I think the training (whatever that may be) is more focused that is all.
What do you teach?

Wouldn't that be nice, if we never had to deal with people different from us? If you are teaching English, you may not be Korean. Things may be different. How does that feel?

I have to deal with men all the time.
Regardless of how clumsy, closeminded and stinky I might think they are, I have to hold my nose and deal. Then there's the whole IQ problem. Men are too stupid to figure out how much smarter women are.

Not nice eh? Yes, I am being confrontational. It's not pleasant to be a second class citizen, is it.

Welcome to our world as you see it.

Quote:
There was one woman I looked forward to working out with, she is a 4th dan in hapkido, can do spinkicks over my head with ease (which is hot)
So, if a woman is badder than you, and she can do something "useful" like spin kicks over your head (which is very important to martial competence) then you can deal with it. Especially if she is "hot". Spin kicks notwithstanding. These, of course, are the penultimate in martial competence. This means she missed your head... feel free to admire the view, however.

Quote:
and is one of the most martial people I have ever met.
How many women in martial arts have you talked to?

Quote:
I would not say that I have a philosophical or ethical objection to working out with women, it is just that I have had some bad experiences with them in the past, and class runs smoother when theyre not involved (I would say that it would be fair to assume that the inverse is true also) .
Just my observations about classes I have been to.
later bettis
I'd love to hear what the experiences were.

I have had bad experiences with both sexes.

Some of my worst experiences have been with men who didn't think, or understand, that women should be on the mat. Some of the other worst have been with women who didn't want any competition (however they saw that!).

Some of the best have been at the hands of men, and women, who were secure enough to help others succeed.

Like Einstein said, it's all relative.

ED Gordon
I've said it all before here:
http://ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA03dolan.htm
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:26 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Regardless of how clumsy, close minded and stinky I might think they are, I have to hold my nose and deal.
Ok now, just because certain stereotypes are true in an overwhelming portion of the populace, doesn't mean you have to bring it up in polite conversation!

Best,
Ron (I'm only stinky in those [ahem] "gassy" moments)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:44 PM   #8
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Children and adults together

Quote:
But my experience has been that classes segregated by sex work out better.
I would expect that this is because the students are more focused on their classwork, and the subject matter of learning to deal with those of the opposite sex is not on the table.

Likewise, I would assume that many people who are home-schooled or whom receive private lessons in something progress "better" than those distracted by others and the subject of interpersonal relationships and differing interpretations and interests amongst peers.

However, this type of environment is unrealistic, as everyday life inevitably involves a lot less isolation and segregation. The skills that are useful in the broader context are exactly the types of skills that being shunted off by this imposed, artificial separation.

If the students are not to learn (or at least exercise) these interpersonal skills in school or in the dojo, when are they supposed to learn them? Are these skills not especially helpful to an art such as Aikido that is an inherently social art?

You're learning more in the school or in the dojo then what is taught on the syllabus. I personally think that learning to deal with personal relationships is a long-term benefit that outweighs the short-term issues and short-term benefit of an extra hundred facts, theorems, or techniques being learned.

Rob
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:57 PM   #9
Trish Greene
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

First of all, pairing midschool aged kids together in a coed physical situation is not really condusive to learning. Too many hormones running around!

However I do completely agree with Emily and Mike on this one! We are not there to be "hot" (totally sexist remark BTW) but to learn how to defend ourselves against people that are out to physically attack us. If we don't train against the attack, then we become victims. THAT is why we train.

Are you the Uke for each one of those girls you teach in middle school? No? Then how are they going to know what to do if an adult male attacks them?

I am the only adult female in my dojo, I have a teenage girl that works out with us as well. Her father, who is often my Uke, makes sure that she works in with the big guys so that she knows what it will feel like if she is attacked on the street, and what her reaction would be. THAT is why we train.

I do understand that there is, perhaps, a different social climate in Korea then here in the US and if I were to move to Korea, I would be respectful and not expect men to train with me, since that seems to be their custom. However, here in the US, it is quite a different story!
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Old 09-22-2006, 09:18 PM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Another thing, I have done a bit of hostel travelling. From my experience and talking to people who run hostels, it turns out that mixed-sex dorm rooms tend to work better than single sex. The men are cleaner and the women are more friendly. I consider separating the sexes an artifact of a less civilized era.
That's an interesting comment. I see the point of view for hostel living. Depending on what I want for a martial workout, from mild to harsh (depending on my goals in training), I may want a mixed dojo or I may want all-male. Whichever choice I make, I'd hate to be put down for not conforming to someone else's ideas of what is "correct", etc.

Take as an example every professional-level MMA training hall. How many are mixed-gender? Do you think it's because all those men have psychological hang-ups that need to be corrected or balanced? Would mixed-gender practice make them more in shape to win competitive matches?

I can see both sides of it... both the dojo's where mixed-gender is the norm and dojo's/training-halls where single-sex is the norm. Each to his own, as far as I'm concerned. Single-sex training halls don't call for as much approbation as trying to lay guilt trips on people, IMO.

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-22-2006, 10:18 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Single-sex training halls don't call for as much approbation as trying to lay guilt trips on people, IMO.
Oops... make that disapprobation. Typed too fast.
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:26 PM   #12
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Take as an example every professional-level MMA training hall. How many are mixed-gender? Do you think it's because all those men have psychological hang-ups that need to be corrected or balanced?
Probably.
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Old 09-23-2006, 12:38 PM   #13
hapkidoike
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Re: Children and adults is nothing like men and women

Gordon:
Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
I trust you will continue in your quest for this. ;-)
I always am

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
Wouldn't that be nice, if we never had to deal with people different from us? If you are teaching English, you may not be Korean. Things may be different. How does that feel?
I am not Korean, that is the case. It feels a little wierd to be one of only crackers around, but I kind of get off on the discomfort.

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
I have to deal with men all the time.
Regardless of how clumsy, closeminded and stinky I might think they are, I have to hold my nose and deal. Then there's the whole IQ problem. Men are too stupid to figure out how much smarter women are.
And you dont think the door swings both ways?

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
Not nice eh? Yes, I am being confrontational. It's not pleasant to be a second class citizen, is it.
I'm not too worried about you being nice to me or anybody else. I have rarely been accused of being a nice guy, and don't expect from people, nor do I get all that upset when they are jerks. Most folks are, and I include my self in this statement.

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
Welcome to our world as you see it.
We all live in the same world, and we all see it differently.

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
So, if a woman is badder than you, and she can do something "useful" like spin kicks over your head (which is very important to martial competence) then you can deal with it. Especially if she is "hot". Spin kicks notwithstanding. These, of course, are the penultimate in martial competence. This means she missed your head... feel free to admire the view, however.
It is not that she is 'badder than me, nor did I say that SHE was hot I said that IT (the fact that she could do spinkicks over my head) was hot (which I meant more as a joke than anything, and if you can't see that then you know what they say "f em if they cant take a joke"). Read my post carefully and don't confuse the issue this way. Dont get me wrong she is an attractive woman, but that is not what I was refering to. The fact that you interpreted it this way just shows me how immature you really are (HA!)

Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
How many women in martial arts have you talked to?
I'd love to hear what the experiences were.
I have had bad experiences with both sexes.
I dont know a specific number, nor am I really inclined to think about it all that much right now. I am sure you would love to talk to them but I doubt you speak Korean and I woudlnt know how to get ahold of any of them in the States. I too have had bad expierences with both. I was not trying to say that I did not.


Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
Some of my worst experiences have been with men who didn't think, or understand, that women should be on the mat. Some of the other worst have been with women who didn't want any competition (however they saw that!).

Some of the best have been at the hands of men, and women, who were secure enough to help others succeed.
Nowhere did I say that I thought 'women did not belong on the mat' nor do I buy into that statement. If somebody wants to do aikido or tae kwon do, or build boats, or repair aircon units they ought to be allowed to regardless of their sex, race, color . . . you get the idea.

I really dont think that what I said was all that objectionable. I have a better experience training in an all male environment. That is all I was saying. I was stating that it was my prefrence. I am sure that there are people who want to train in a co-ed environmnet, and I know of people who do not (both men and women). The both can co-exist. There is no reason that they cannot. And, there are many women I am sure that I would greatly enjoy training with, and there are some women that I am greatful to have trained with, but as a matter of course, I enjoy training with men better, and feel that I learn more.

All of you people are right, we do all have to live and work together, and I dont think that we ought to live in a sex segragated society. I dont think that what I wrote suggested that. If it did then I misrepresented my position. My position is that I think some or most people would (or could) benifit from male/female only classes. From my limited expierence my students do. Maybe it is unfair to compare adults to middle school students, but maybe not. I am not really sure yet. Give me 10 years of experience with them and I will let you know.
But the idea that something as dinosaurian just because it does not jive with your "wordview" (I hate that word) is a bit excessive. What is your evidence. Look, I am not trying to come off as sexist and don't think that what I am saying is, all I am trying to say is that I think both sexes would do well to train in their own space. For some that would mean all female classes, for some all male classes, and for some co-ed classes. I happen to have foudn that I fit better in one niche than anthoher. Someone asked me a question. I awnsered it honestly, for that I am unapologetic.


Quote:
Emily Dolan Gordon wrote:
Like Einstein said, it's all relative.
Damn straight.

Last edited by hapkidoike : 09-23-2006 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 09-23-2006, 12:50 PM   #14
hapkidoike
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Greene:
Quote:
Trish Greene wrote:
However I do completely agree with Emily and Mike on this one! We are not there to be "hot" (totally sexist remark BTW) but to learn how to defend ourselves against people that are out to physically attack us. If we don't train against the attack, then we become victims. THAT is why we train.
I didnt say she was hot. I said the fact that she could do spinkicks over my head was hot. Dont let your political ideology get in the way of the argument.

Quote:
Trish Greene wrote:
I am the only adult female in my dojo, I have a teenage girl that works out with us as well. Her father, who is often my Uke, makes sure that she works in with the big guys so that she knows what it will feel like if she is attacked on the street, and what her reaction would be. THAT is why we train.
Probably a good idea.

Quote:
Trish Greene wrote:
I do understand that there is, perhaps, a different social climate in Korea then here in the US and if I were to move to Korea, I would be respectful and not expect men to train with me, since that seems to be their custom. However, here in the US, it is quite a different story!
As a matter of course men and women do train together. It merely happens to be the case that no women train at this dojang (there are only 9 of us that show up with any regularity), given that there is not much interest in Japanese martial arts due to the Koreans hatred of the Japanese, which exists for good reason.
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Old 09-23-2006, 02:53 PM   #15
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Actually, Einstein never said everything was relative, nor is it implied by his theories of relativity. In fact, the theories allow one to take account of the relative differences between space and time frames and make exact quantitative measurements - it is intended as a means to 'cancel out' the relativity in a problem. The relativity referred to by the name has to do with differences between objects that are traveling near the speed of light in different directions, or near huge gravitation sources. For objects like a bunch of humans stuck to the surface of one planet, it makes such a small difference from measuring things the old Newtonian way that it is insignificant. There is no way to legitimately extrapolate from the relativity of space and time frames to arenas like cultural differences. Einstein was very outspoken politically, and not a relativist in the philosophical sense at all.
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Old 09-23-2006, 03:18 PM   #16
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
That's an interesting comment. I see the point of view for hostel living. Depending on what I want for a martial workout, from mild to harsh (depending on my goals in training), I may want a mixed dojo or I may want all-male. Whichever choice I make, I'd hate to be put down for not conforming to someone else's ideas of what is "correct", etc.

Take as an example every professional-level MMA training hall. How many are mixed-gender? Do you think it's because all those men have psychological hang-ups that need to be corrected or balanced? Would mixed-gender practice make them more in shape to win competitive matches?

I can see both sides of it... both the dojo's where mixed-gender is the norm and dojo's/training-halls where single-sex is the norm. Each to his own, as far as I'm concerned. Single-sex training halls don't call for as much approbation as trying to lay guilt trips on people, IMO.

Mike Sigman
My point was that even in sleeping quarters mixed sex works better, which most people probably wouldn't expect.

Your point is illogical - putting the cart before the horse. If you want to train hardcore for MMA fights, what you are probably looking for are strong people who like extremely rough training. Most women probably won't want to be involved in it because they are generally smaller and not into that sort of thing. However, this is merely a tendency, not a rule.

The makeup of such a class will likely be all-male by selecting based on performance criteria. The element of sex discrimination is unnecessary. If some huge, tough woman who was really good showed up, a dojo of your description would turn her away, to their detriment.

To make it more clear: If one did a thorough demographic analysis, one would probably also find all sorts of other categories of people who aren't likely to be suited for such an MMA class: maybe interior decorators, people who write romance novels, collectors of Precious Moments figurines, whatever... There is no need to find out who all these groups are and expressly exclude them, as it will all happen naturally based on performance-based selection criteria.
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Old 09-23-2006, 10:01 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
My point was that even in sleeping quarters mixed sex works better, which most people probably wouldn't expect.
To be honest, I've always thought that mixed sex works better in sleeping quarters. No surprise to me.
Quote:
Your point is illogical - putting the cart before the horse. If you want to train hardcore for MMA fights, what you are probably looking for are strong people who like extremely rough training. Most women probably won't want to be involved in it because they are generally smaller and not into that sort of thing. However, this is merely a tendency, not a rule.

The makeup of such a class will likely be all-male by selecting based on performance criteria. The element of sex discrimination is unnecessary. If some huge, tough woman who was really good showed up, a dojo of your description would turn her away, to their detriment.

To make it more clear: If one did a thorough demographic analysis, one would probably also find all sorts of other categories of people who aren't likely to be suited for such an MMA class: maybe interior decorators, people who write romance novels, collectors of Precious Moments figurines, whatever... There is no need to find out who all these groups are and expressly exclude them, as it will all happen naturally based on performance-based selection criteria.
I think you're only repeating what I said... depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for hard-core martial arts, you're going to find that it's almost purely male. I.e., it's a performance-based criterion and the social aspects of male-female mixing have lesser importance. To trivialize all-male, hard-core training as having something intrinsically wrong with it, as a couple of people implied, doesn't stand up to any rigorous (or even casual) scrutiny.

There is no case that can be made for mixing of genders as other than a social comment, if the focus of the martial training is indeed on martial excellence. And of course when I say that, I don't exclude women at all.... I simply say that they, like the men, need to be able to walk the walk. "Gender diversity" has got nothing to do with good fighting, when you cut to the chase.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-23-2006, 11:47 PM   #18
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

If you really thought I was repeating what you said, you didn't understand what I said, or what you previously said, or both. You referred to "single sex training halls" and wanting to train at "all-male" dojos. The first is stating that the training hall is single sex by design, not happenstance, and the second implies that the lack of females training at the dojo would be your selection criteria, not performance level.

I doubt anyone on this board said or implied that a certain quota of women should be forced upon every martial arts class everywhere. If that is what you were arguing against, then you misinterpreted most or all of the posts you were responding to and grossly misstated your response. The original guy did not say that he liked to train so brutally that he happened to end up in classes with no women in them, he said he did not like to train with women. The people here are objecting to the idea of excluding women by design, and of an express preference not to train with women.
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:16 AM   #19
Edwin Neal
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

COED NAKED AIKIDO!!! to be followed by COED NAKED GRAPPLING class!!! HOORAY!!! I'm there!

But seriously... i enjoy training with females some of my favorite (best) instructors are... gives you a different perspective since IMO females tend to be naturally better aikidoka... don't rely on upperbody and lower center and all... plus they smell better...

Edwin Neal


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Old 09-24-2006, 09:38 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The original guy did not say that he liked to train so brutally that he happened to end up in classes with no women in them, he said he did not like to train with women. The people here are objecting to the idea of excluding women by design, and of an express preference not to train with women.
??? My point (which was pretty darn clear) is that some people have perfectly valid reasons why they don't want to train with women... or with men....and that's up to them. I was objecting to someone's opinion being trivialized or denigrated because it doesn't conform to someone eles's idea of "correct thinking". I was pretty clear and I don't want to get pulled into a useless argument after stating an opinion, Kevin.

If I have set goals in my training and I don't want to train with women or with too-aggressive men or *whatever*, they're my goals and preferences and I should be able to decide what I want to do without anyone haranguing me because my decisions don't conform with their established "correctness". It's that simple.

I go to a dojo to train, not socialize. And yes, a lot of dojos are run by "dojo momma's" who pretty much decide who fits and who doesn't, according to their own views of political correctness. I don't complain; I just leave. Same way I leave a dojo that is run by a "herd bull" type guy who is running his own little empire of followers. Each to his own, I allus sez.

Mike
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:13 AM   #21
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
??? My point (which was pretty darn clear)
Your points have never been clear to me.

Dojo momma's, herd bull's, dive bunny's...You crack me up. What dojo do you train at BTY?
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:25 AM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

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Ricky Wood wrote:
Your points have never been clear to me.
Then I think you need to go back to some of the other posts, not necessarily Kevin's or mine. There were other comments disparaging anyone preferring not to work out with women... I was obliquely replying to them.
Quote:
Dojo momma's, herd bull's, dive bunny's...You crack me up. What dojo do you train at BTY?
As you noticed in the "Dive Bunnies" crack, a of people knew exactly what I was referring to. When I say "Dojo Momma" and "Herd Bull", I assure you a lot of people know exactly what I'm talking about, too.... I've been in after-hours conversations with too many people noting the same things. "Dojo Momma's" and "Herd Bulls" have been spotted in more than a few places.

Mike
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:57 AM   #23
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

You forgot to tell me where you train at Mike.
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:13 PM   #24
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

OK, Mike, now it's clear. Your first post was not a misstatement and you did not understand my objection to your response. You are conflating sex discrimination and performance-based training goals in a way that you can't really account for. You are saying that you want to be able to act in accordance with your prejudices and boldly state them in public with complete impunity... without even having to hear a sentence or two of criticism. This seems silly to me, given that your prejudice in this case is clearly unpopular. That's not the way freedom or free speech works. Besides, I don't see how such senstitivity to a few lines of criticism squares with being a hard-training tough guy who sees no other purpose to training besides better fighting. Why not just take it like a man, so to speak?
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Old 09-24-2006, 12:32 PM   #25
Mike Sigman
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Re: Men and Women Training Together

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Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
OK, Mike, now it's clear. Your first post was not a misstatement and you did not understand my objection to your response. You are conflating sex discrimination and performance-based training goals in a way that you can't really account for. You are saying that you want to be able to act in accordance with your prejudices and boldly state them in public with complete impunity... without even having to hear a sentence or two of criticism.
Cite please? I have said no such thing. I was defending a previous poster's right to post his opinion without being hammered by the "correctness" crowd. He has an opinion. You have an opinion. I have an opinion.
Quote:
This seems silly to me, given that your prejudice in this case is clearly unpopular. That's not the way freedom or free speech works. Besides, I don't see how such senstitivity to a few lines of criticism squares with being a hard-training tough guy who sees no other purpose to training besides better fighting. Why not just take it like a man, so to speak?
Take what like a man? Your opinion or your bellicosity? Do you think it's OK for people to want to train with whom they choose or not? That's what the question is that I raised. Somehow that equates with "prejudice", suddenly. Didn't you leave out "bigot" and "racist" and "warmonger"? Let's not get sloppy with the name calling.


Mike Sigman
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