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Old 09-20-2006, 07:49 PM   #76
dps
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

An example of linear stabilization verses gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rePNW0_EabY&eurl=

The light colored robot has linear stabilization, the dark colored robot has gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.robots-dreams.com/2006/08...t_m_keepi.html

Last edited by dps : 09-20-2006 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:55 PM   #77
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
An example of linear stabilization verses gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rePNW0_EabY&eurl=

The light colored robot has linear stabilization, the dark colored robot has gyroscopic stabilization.
Hmmmm... I'm not sure that's what Erick is talking about. If it is, it's not what I'm talking about.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 09-20-2006, 09:08 PM   #79
dps
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Last one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DWkW...BD983&index=11
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:49 PM   #80
Erick Mead
 
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Thumbs up Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Cool, David. Thanks.

Rock 'em, Sock 'em Robots, Yamato-damashii-ho.

One of them even has a pretty good kokyunage ...

The reduced sway on the gyro model is fairly evident. From the diagram it is a stabilized simple pylon model , not a spring-jointed swivel pylon, but even so ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:55 AM   #81
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmm... I'm not sure that's what Erick is talking about. If it is, it's not what I'm talking about.
If I understand the typical application for these kind of robots, the gyro rate sensor (probably piezoelectric) merely senses the upsetting moment, and the same type of cog actuators operate to give the restoring moment in both cases. In fairness to Mike, the restoring moment mechanism here is equivalent to the "lever, pulley" static system he is talking about. Neither robot has a double universal jointed hip. I am talking about gyroscopic mechanics as a means to damp sway.

Both robots have feet that, on a human, would be about eighteen inches square. Their static stabiity solves most of their dynamic stability problems, through simple floor leverage. They do not demonstrate the supercritical stability that is associated with the most keen examples of dynamic human poise. A ballerina en pointe is not using the same mechanisms to damp her sway. Nor is an aikidoka in koshinage.

And I don''t know about you, but fighting in clown shoes is not waza I have any familiarity with -- perhaps it is dumboku-ryu ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:53 AM   #82
davidafindlay
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
<snip>Let me try a concrete example with a specific technique.

Assume shomenuchi ikkyo with the right hand.

The plane of rotation of the attack is in the vertical-fore and aft plane (y,z). Torque for that rotation lies on the transverse (left-right) axis (x). The horiztonal plane cutting uke in half at the hips is (x,y).

<snip (x,y) (x,z) (y,z) etc>
Thanks for your time with the reply! Much to my surprise I pretty much followed the logic of the description , but to be honest I was kinda left a bit unconvinced about the effect (magnitude?) of a gryoscopic resultant force, given that the accelerations involved are prtty small, relative to an actual gyroscope. Maybe that will be something to fall out of the discussion about Mike's question about throwing someone away.

Regards,
Dave

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:55 AM   #83
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

<OT>
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
but I consider "aiki" to be simply an offshoot of more elemental forces
Ah, elemetal forces... didn't they also cause a certain egg to hatch, from which came a stone monkey... (!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibMHNV3Wsho

Sorry, couldn't resist it in passing, as its possibly the seminal reason from many moons ago that I am on this board, but anyhow....

</OT>

Dave.

Dave Findlay
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:10 PM   #84
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Dave Findlay wrote:
Thanks for your time with the reply! Much to my surprise I pretty much followed the logic of the description , but to be honest I was kinda left a bit unconvinced about the effect (magnitude?) of a gryoscopic resultant force, given that the accelerations involved are prtty small, relative to an actual gyroscope. Maybe that will be something to fall out of the discussion about Mike's question about throwing someone away.
Yes --- small. "Judge me by my size, do you." Sorry, likewise couldn't resist.

The resultant is determined by relative moment, and the moments are of the same order of magnitude. No, it is not a gyrocompass moment (ca. 20k rpm), but the physics is the same. The scale of proportion between the rotary moment and input moment in the example is much closer to par. And there is no moment on the off-axis to resist the input.

The more significant differnce, though, is that human balance is chaotic. The semi-cyclic wobble of the hips for stability is chaotic -- in the mathematical sense -- it can circuit one or the other loop of of its roughly figure eight loop path or back again at a moment's notice (pun intended) and reversing loops as well, never QUITE following the same path twice. Swivel your hips around and the shape of the motion of your center in stabilizing you is quite obvious.

The shape of the stability path of the center of mass is a loose collection of figure-eight paths very similar to (but different shape) as the Lorenz attrractor. The Lorenz attractor is the "butterfly" shape on the opening page of this paper: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/172...n%20diagram%22

The dripping faucet bifurcation diagram, illustrates the consequence of this chaotic mechinasm. (Bear with me). At a low flow rate (acceleration) a faucet drips at one frequency (velocity). Increase the flow and it breaks into two discrete, but widely separated frequencies of drip. Increase it again and it breaks into four simultaneous rhythms, but closer together; eight and even closer together; 16 and ... and so on.

At a point, the diagram is almost black with discrete frquencies among which the drips actually fall, and the system is defined as "chaotic." Typically, this is almost immediatly after it undergoes its third period doubling, or "Period Three." You can see the bifurcation diagram on page 13 of the cited paper, figure 10.

Consider:
"The Tao begets One; One begets Two, Two begets Three and Three beget the Ten Thousand Things." We have just quantified it folks, that is all.

In a chaotic system acted on by vanishingly small perturbations like a dripping faucet, at high acceleration, the range of discrete frequencies available is such that instantaneous, (seemingly) discontinuous and highly disproportionate shifts of state can occur.

Because the frequency of wobble in the hip path (velocity) (time between drips) is chaotic, and the system is under a relatively large constant acceleration input (gravity) (flow of water) ( ie. -- a squared velocity term), the frequency of the wobble can change discontinuously and dispropotionately with arbitrarily small inputs among a very large range of discrete frequency values. That frequency is velocity. Kinetic energy increases by the square of velocity.

The "perpetual motion" objections come next Eeeek! We are increasing energy in the technique, by increasing frequency at constant ampitude without any obvious source, and thus violating entropy.

Not so. There is a source of energy -- right underneath us. We drop our hips as we perform technique, thus "stealing" energy from the earth (converting gravitational potential into actual kinetic energy.

Then, because our stabilizing system loops back on itself, we store that energy "momentarily" -- in our hip sway moment, and as the cyclic phase of the sytem comes back around we add back in more energy from the recovery push off from the drop we just made. We then can applying that additional moment energy to uke in the technique. All of that energy is now ready to dump into the side of uke's attack, adding moment gyroscopically and dispacing him out of his plane of action, .

Notably, there are gaps in the bifurcation diagram where the added acceleration becomes unsupportable and state of the system just collapses to one or a few values at that level of energy.

There is definitely resonance with aikido and kuzushi in that model.
The resultants are as suitably "spooky" (but entirely mathematically determinate) as aikido can be in practice.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:25 PM   #85
David Orange
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"? Wouldn't that be a better practical start?
I was re-reading this thread for thoughts on weight transfer and found this comment very interesting. I recently had an experience that made it stand out. I'm hoping Mike will comment further.

I was doing tai chi, just opening the Yang form, raising and lowering my arms, when I suddenly remembered a discussion of raising the arms "from the center". I realized that I was simply "willing" my arms to raise and letting it happen as "necessary," which meant that I raised the arms with the shoulder muscles. Which is much as Erick describes it in a later post: you activate the shoulder muscles and the body has to adjust from the center to balance the structural forces, etc.

But this time, I just stopped, relaxed, and asked myself, "How could I raise my arms from the center?"

I sort of "pushed" with my abdomen and the arms raised.

Well, of course, the shoulder muscles and all the usual muscles acted, but this was different. Instead of "telling" my arms to raise, I told my center that I wanted to open tai chi and waited to see how that would happen. So the command went from the center through the body (via the fascia?). My arms began to raise and, acting from the center, I felt many small adjustments fall into place, things like letting the elbows remain heavy, equalizing the tension/relaxation in the left and right sides of the ribcage, both sides of the back, the shoulders, etc.

In short, it was a much more tactile experience than just sending a message to my muscles to raise my arms. In the process, I felt much more aware of my "whole body" than usual when raising the arms for tai chi. In particular, I had a much clearer awareness of my whole back and I wondered if this was what was meant by letting the chi "adhere to the back."

Mike's question led to a long and winding discourse that never came back to the point of raising the arms from the center and two years later, that point has never been fully addressed.

So how about it, Mike?

Is the experience described above related to what you meant? Can you expound further on how to raise the arms "from the center?"

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-13-2008, 08:15 PM   #86
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mike's question led to a long and winding discourse that never came back to the point of raising the arms from the center and two years later, that point has never been fully addressed.

So how about it, Mike?

Is the experience described above related to what you meant? Can you expound further on how to raise the arms "from the center?"
I dunno, David. I tried to briefly describe something to an old friend of mine yesterday (he's a longterm student of Ikeda Sensei) and then I went to describe the same thing in person to a couple of other people this afternoon and I had this realization again that it's almost impossible to describe these things in writing. In person, I had to keep backing up to clarify and show a point, so I suddenly realized that my written description to an old friend was pretty much useless.

Essentially, I don't want to touch your guesses about the connections,etc., to the hands from the hara unless I can feel what you're doing in conjunction with the way you're verbalizing it. That's a safety to keep me from misleading you by agreeing or disagreeing with something you've said. "Jin" is the foothold knowledge. One you understand up-jin and down-jin (the ki of earth and the ki of heaven), everything else is a logical progression.

When you raise your hands, the hands ARE the dantien; when you lower your hands, the hands ARE the crotch-weight/hara. Remember how our friend Justin Smith had fun with the crotch-weight idea because he didn't understand the physical principles so he thought it was some sort of spurious remark. However, the connections (fascia and jin) are something that is impossible to say in words.

Mike
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Old 10-14-2008, 12:59 PM   #87
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno, David. I tried to briefly describe something to an old friend of mine yesterday (he's a longterm student of Ikeda Sensei) and then I went to describe the same thing in person to a couple of other people this afternoon and I had this realization again that it's almost impossible to describe these things in writing.
My favorite illustration is showing how to lift the end of a rope off the ground that is longer than my height plus my reach. My considered opinion on what is happening, mechanically speaking, I will not indulge, but it is not hard to find here. The only difference between the rope and the limbs is that in the body there are means to hold any position thus obtained.

I illustrate the holding process as "tree limb" behavior ("unbendable" arm being an isolated and much misunderstood example of that)

But those means are not used to obtain the motion to change position and shift energy to begin with. I have suggested in the past that such motion is somewhat "tentacular," something perhaps held over from before our pre-vertebtrate ancestors had bones.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One you understand up-jin and down-jin (the ki of earth and the ki of heaven), everything else is a logical progression.
We... agree ... Hmm.

[quote=Mike Sigman;218065]When you raise your hands, the hands ARE the dantien; when you lower your hands, the hands ARE the crotch-weight/hara. /QUOTE]I like to illustrate the consequence of connected body and the sense of it with the sword, held in chudan extension and then shifting from chudan to seigan and back again using the center alone -- never using the arms for anything but holding the sword.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:13 AM   #88
C. David Henderson
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Interesting rereading. Thanks to all

DH
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