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Old 09-16-2006, 12:07 AM   #26
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Dave Findlay wrote:
Hi Erick,I guess its how you define "connection" and "resistance" and how the skills of controlling someone are cultivated.
There are many paths, no doubt.
Quote:
IMHO, culitvating resistance in the beginning can be a good thing, as most people aren't sensitive right off the bat to really know where their uke's force and intent is _really_ going.
To the extent that nage or uke needs enough to feel above their threshhold, I agree. Beyond that, additional force, I think, is counterproductive. A fine balance must be struck and always try to keep them teetering at the edge of the sensation they are feeling for. If you don't do that and keep the dynamic toward ever less "firm" (apart from atemi) then the dynamic naturally tends toward the other gradient -- the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic. It is not as helpful to development of good musubi connection.
Quote:
Can you define "juji" and its application?
Several of O-Sensei's Doka mention it, one even calls the art "jūjido." Juuji or jūji ( 十字 ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice.

As kanji, 十 juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center. It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in.

As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.

Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden).

As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there. The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...

As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:

Quote:
O-Sensei wrote:
The spiritual essence
of heaven and earth
congeals as the source of our Path.
The peace and happiness of the world
is linked to Heaven's Floating Bridge.
Cordially,
Erick Mead

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:12 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
There are many paths, no doubt.
To the extent that nage or uke needs enough to feel above their threshhold, I agree. Beyond that, additional force, I think, is counterproductive. A fine balance must be struck and always try to keep them teetering at the edge of the sensation they are feeling for. If you don't do that and keep the dynamic toward ever less "firm" (apart from atemi) then the dynamic naturally tends toward the other gradient -- the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic. It is not as helpful to development of good musubi connection.

Several of O-Sensei's Doka mention it, one even calls the art "jūjido." Juuji or jūji ( 十字 ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice.

As kanji, 十 juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center. It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in.

As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.

Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden).

As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there. The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...

As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:



Cordially,
Erick Mead
Hi Erick:

Well, all those years of statics, mechanics, physics, assorted math and physical sciences classes have apparently been for naught: I don't know what you're trying to say. Assuming all the usages by O-Sensei of standard/traditional Chinese references about heaven and earth and man, the bridge between heaven and earth, etc., etc., are not just some impossible coincidence, then I have a vague and general idea what O-Sensei is saying (because there's a general philosophy and physical explanation behind these things). What you're saying about "vibrational" things and "angular momentum, etc., may be interesting, but it's not really coherent, at least not to me. So I'd appreciate it if you could simplify it and make it somewhat clearer.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:42 PM   #28
eyrie
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

If an engineer can't understand that, what hope do we mere mortals have? (Especially ones that failed physics!)

BTW, liked the 4-legged stool with 2 legs missing analogy.... much easier to explain and understand - to an 8yr old.

Ignatius
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:21 AM   #29
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, all those years of statics, mechanics, physics, assorted math and physical sciences classes have apparently been for naught: I don't know what you're trying to say.
Assuming all the usages by O-Sensei of standard/traditional Chinese references about heaven and earth and man, the bridge between heaven and earth, etc., etc., are not just some impossible coincidence, then I have a vague and general idea what O-Sensei is saying (because there's a general philosophy and physical explanation behind these things). What you're saying about "vibrational" things and "angular momentum, etc., may be interesting, but it's not really coherent, at least not to me. So I'd appreciate it if you could simplify it and make it somewhat clearer.
Two dimensional state vectors at perpendicular angles (or any angle, really, but we are talking about juji + ) have a resultant that is the vector sum of the two i.e. -- a vector headed north and a vector headed west sum as a vector headed northwest. The magnitude of the vector is likewise a Pythagorean function (in the case of right angles (or a trigonometric function of the vector addition of any other angles).

But the human body is not a two dimensional object. The body as a whole can rotate in three axes about its center. Most human joints have more than one degree of freedom, some have two or three, even if some axes are more restricted, and one is a universal joint within its limits of rotation.

Dynamics of rotating objects require gyrodynamic analysis. Apply force to a rotating object and the resultant vector is ninety degrees out, on an axis that is not in the plane formed by the vector force and the axis of rotation of the object to which it is applied. This is counter-intuitive to the two-dimensional force assumptions that frame most people's walking-around knowledge, and counterintuitive to innate learning of most people's bodies. Gyrodynamic action also exists in vibrating as well rotating bodies.

To which the engineer says, most reasonably, that none of the joints in question rotate at a rate with sufficient momentum for classical gyrodynamic action. But what engineers puzzle over -- helo pilots live and die by and thus learn intuitively, wherefore the points I am making.

For all of our mechanical articulation, human beings are also not classical mechnical objects or mechanisms. We are exceedingly complex feedback engines. In short -- we can push back in quite disproportionate and confusing ways.

I have puzzled for years over the nature of the action involved in aikido technique. It is symbolized by the tachi sword and its deescendants, whose shape implies the spiral that gives it cutting efficiency. It is implied in the Red and White Jewels of O-Sensei's Doka. Jewels in classical Japanese reference mean the magatama shape, the comma-like elements of the tomoe, the same as reputed to be the shape of the Jewel of the Imperial Regalia. It is also the shape of the arm held in tegatana, the bent "unbendable" arm.

The principle of virtual work is another counterintuitive concept. To determine the dynamics of an complex articulated object that is too difficult to analyze in motion, assumes it is static and hardly moves at all. In more techincal words, it calculates the dynamic by an infinitesimal movement over an infinitesimal time. Without belaboring the specifics of the method of virtual work, suffice it to say that it is a very powerful tool for situations where other tools simply fail, miserably. Bernoulli's underlying assumptions about all things finding equilibrium also has resonance in aiki priniciples.

Aiki, ki musubi, uses the kinesthetic apparatus associated with every joint of the body. Most joints of the body are themselves complex affairs, and the body's articulated system of joints is yet more so. Two levels of virtual work analysis are necessary to fully assess the equilibrium conditions of the human body in dynamic action.

The human brain and body is analogous to a programmable analog computer. It is capable of calculations that are mathematically indistinguishable from the solution of difficult sytems of simultaneous equations that are the bread and butter of virtual work as a tool of engineering and physics.

Juji, as I have begun to understand it, is how aikido teaches to sense (or iinfer) and then to respond to the gyrodynamic rotation/oscillation in human movement. To describe my understanding, the brain/spirit/makoto learns in aikido training to provide resultant inputs to the attacker's joints along the axis of the gyrodynamic resultant, regardless whether "classical" gyrodynamics would seem to apply. The brain can posit a gyro dynamic according to the principle of virtual work. The result is spooky, tricky and very unnerving to the unprepared attacker's kinesthettic sytem, when everything goes wrong and yet he cannot feel exactly why.

The attacker intends his action to act in a single plane to maximize directed energy. If a motion rotates or oscillates it is admissible as a gyrodynamic input evenif it is only one oscillation or a very small rotation -- and the brain can treat it as it as such. By treating the attacking joint/body motion as a virtual gyro, the brain uses the principle of virtual work to create an output that is not a counterattack along or evasion from the incoming vector plane of rotation or oscillation (the more common martial response) but a gyrodynamic displacement of it by entering directly, and turning. The attack and the response in aiki are never in the same plane in a physical sense, as O-Sensei said "In Aikido there is never any attack."

I have not yet touched on the issue of magnitude, but radial ratios should give some idea of the manipulaiton of force amplification or dampening that are possible by such gyrodynamic means.

More sugar for a dime than you probably wanted, but you did ask ...

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 12:30 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:47 AM   #30
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If an engineer can't understand that, what hope do we mere mortals have? (Especially ones that failed physics!)
As for the rest, relating different systems of related knowledge is never easy, it requires both perserverance and sensitivity to the perspectives of both, lest something important get lost in translating the "unimportant" that one side may view as surplusage.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:37 AM   #31
davidafindlay
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic
I can see where you're probably coming from, but I reckon the competitive element can be managed, especially if the session isn't "technique" based. I find the main time things get counter-productive is when someone doesn't really get the point of a particular exercise - ie doesn't know what they are training or why they are doing it, and consequently the point is missed. Nothing wrong with being competitive in the right environment, so long as the "proper" rules or principles or whatever are being observed. FWIW I reckon the mindset that is suggested by the term "testosterone-competitive monster" can be seen in any kind of practise (hard or soft), and is only one of a few mindsets that can be detrimental to learning.
Quote:
...j?ji ( ?? ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice. As kanji, ? juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center.
Oh. Haven't numerous threads discussed this recently? ie, about aikido being kokyu-based etc? That would then make sense if Ueshiba said his art was "jujido".

Quote:
It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in.
Excuse my ignorance again. Do you have a quick list of the 8 powers you're talking about?

Quote:
As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation.
I'd question the generalisation of principles used in judo, but I understand vector forces and couples. I recall Statics 101, and if pushed could probably do a reasonable interpretation of a free-body diagram
Quote:
In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken.
Ok, I'm keeping up - but bearing in mind we are only at the stage of talking free-body-diagram, not interaction of people yet.
Quote:
The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.
mmm, not sure about this, but not too worried just now.
Quote:
Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden).
Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost. BTW - "Virtual work"?

Quote:
As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there.
Is this saying that its likely uke is only manifesting their force in 2 directions (eg x&y), leaving the third (z) "unguarded" and available for manipulation ("complete freedom of movement")? If so, what happens if direction z isn't where tori wants to put their power? Sounds a bit simplistic to me - maybe I've reduced it too far...

Quote:
The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...
Mmm. Bit lost here.

Quote:
As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:
O-Sensei wrote:
The spiritual essence
of heaven and earth
congeals as the source of our Path.
The peace and happiness of the world
is linked to Heaven's Floating Bridge.
Ah! (ironically?) this makes a lot more sense from a purely technical perspective, after having done a even only just a bit of reading and exploration recently.

But anyway, the description of juji was originally at my request to the statement of:
Quote:
Prompting connection is aiki -- but provoking resistance is not aiki. The difference is in the application of juji +. A fine line perhaps, but a definite line nevertheless
Based at what I'm guessing Ueshiba's "juji" is from the above doka, I'm guessing its kinda irrelevant whether we have made "just" connection or crossed over into "resistance". By the manifest of *juji* (insert you preferred term here, harvested from a couple of recent threads), then tori should be able to control their partner.

I'm half-thinking I may now be talking cross-purposes, but anyhow: By saying that when working with resistance, if it gets too much, then its "just resistance, not connection" I get the impression that the focus moves from the connection bit into the technique bit. eg "My technique didn't work because you resisted (my technique) too much". This kind of analysis risks glossing over the aspect of how to actually deal with resistance, and what it can tell you about a partner's energy/force/etc, and instead rushes into the "technique" side of things, which IMHO can be a road with many dead ends.

These are just thoughts of mine, in progress, btw.

Regards,
Dave.

Dave Findlay
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Old 09-18-2006, 05:47 AM   #32
davidafindlay
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Dave Findlay (me): wrote:
Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost. BTW - "Virtual work"?
Sorry, just read your post above - I must not have refreshed my window from the other day or something. I don't follow the details particularly well, but I'm not looking for a formal proof.

Can you define the bagua you were mentioning earlier?

Regards,
Dave

Dave Findlay
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:51 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
((snip general musings))
Juji, as I have begun to understand it, is how aikido teaches to sense (or iinfer) and then to respond to the gyrodynamic rotation/oscillation in human movement. To describe my understanding, the brain/spirit/makoto learns in aikido training to provide resultant inputs to the attacker's joints along the axis of the gyrodynamic resultant, regardless whether "classical" gyrodynamics would seem to apply. The brain can posit a gyro dynamic according to the principle of virtual work. The result is spooky, tricky and very unnerving to the unprepared attacker's kinesthettic sytem, when everything goes wrong and yet he cannot feel exactly why.

The attacker intends his action to act in a single plane to maximize directed energy. If a motion rotates or oscillates it is admissible as a gyrodynamic input evenif it is only one oscillation or a very small rotation -- and the brain can treat it as it as such. By treating the attacking joint/body motion as a virtual gyro, the brain uses the principle of virtual work to create an output that is not a counterattack along or evasion from the incoming vector plane of rotation or oscillation (the more common martial response) but a gyrodynamic displacement of it by entering directly, and turning. The attack and the response in aiki are never in the same plane in a physical sense, as O-Sensei said "In Aikido there is never any attack."

I have not yet touched on the issue of magnitude, but radial ratios should give some idea of the manipulaiton of force amplification or dampening that are possible by such gyrodynamic means.
Hi Erick:

How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"? Wouldn't that be a better practical start? Or Tohei's "ki tests"? And of course, ultimately you're left with that ideal of "stillness in motion"... i.e., the movements of articulated joints around axes is not the question anymore... to analyse. It appears to me that you're trying to apply a mechanical analysis to a strategy, at the moment, and I'm not sure a method of movement is itself the stratagy or tactic.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

More sugar for a dime than you probably wanted, but you did ask ...[/quote]
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:52 AM   #34
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Dave Findlay wrote:
I find the main time things get counter-productive is when someone doesn't really get the point of a particular exercise - ie doesn't know what they are training or why they are doing it, and consequently the point is missed.
Frustration is a delicate thing. Too much and the receptivity shuts down and the mind/body reverts to established paths; too little, and the learning parts of the body/mind don't pay enough attention, and are not challenged enough to alter those paths.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
Oh. Haven't numerous threads discussed this recently? ie, about aikido being kokyu-based etc? That would then make sense if Ueshiba said his art was "jujido".
NOT "judo" no ju 柔 but "juji" 十字 no ju 十. If that is what you meant; I try to use kanji to differentiate where necessary.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
Excuse my ignorance again. Do you have a quick list of the 8 powers you're talking about?
Expansion-Contraction; Unification-Division; Motion-Stillness; Solidification-Fluidity. Hachiriki of the "Ichirei-shikon, sangen-hachiriki" formulation. Re your other question about "Ba-gua" ("eight trigrams") in a later post -- hachiriki is a Japanese view of the same essential system as Chinese "Bagua" which represent the eight evolutionary principles or basis for "changes" of the yin-yang, or in-yo dynamic along various axes or sprectra. The interaction of them altogether is the 8 x 8 = 64 figure system of the I Ching. The basic trigram element of the bagua maps onto the sangen-hachiriki (three origins - eight powers) formulation.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
I'd question the generalisation of principles used in judo, but I understand vector forces and couples. I recall Statics 101, and if pushed could probably do a reasonable interpretation of a free-body diagram Ok, I'm keeping up - but bearing in mind we are only at the stage of talking free-body-diagram, not interaction of people yet.mmm, not sure about this, but not too worried just now. Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost.
There is a judo maxim that says "When pulled-push; when pushed-pull." O-Sensei addressed this as to aikido by saying (I cannot attribute at the moment, so bear with me) -- "When pulled - enter; when pushed - turn."
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
BTW - "Virtual work"?
There is separate post that expanded on the role of this, as I see it.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
Is this saying that its likely uke is only manifesting their force in 2 directions (eg x&y), leaving the third (z) "unguarded" and available for manipulation ("complete freedom of movement")? If so, what happens if direction z isn't where tori wants to put their power? Sounds a bit simplistic to me - maybe I've reduced it too far...
Not exactly. It is more fundamental than that. To attack with maximum force (and why would one attack with less than that, pray tell?) requires planar motion. By doing so it both creates a gyrodynamic situation of rotation/oscillation, and the fundamental aspect of gyrodynamics is that the plane of force formed by the attacking vector and the axis of rotation (say, the x-y plane) is not the plane of the resultant vector once they interact, which depending on orientation of the chosen response may be in either the y-z or x-z planes. merely shifting to an angeld attack does nto change anything it simply establishes a re-oriented coordinate system but precisely the same dynamic -- at a slight skew to an observer with a ground-normal reference.

To deal with this suki, this opening -- one simply cannot attack. If you attack <<here>> you are already defeated <<there>>. If you attack -- you open this door that you have no means of closing because your energy is committed to a plane (x-y, y-z, or x-z) where the aikidoka is not fighting. Which is what Aikido emphasizes. It is not something one can "guard" (unless one alters the local physical constants, which I do not think any one claims that aikido does... Well, may be some do -- but there are people who believe anything.)
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...
Mmm. Bit lost here.
That is to say that irimi and tenkan are really the same thing when seen from a gyrodynamc perspective. This is represented by the juji + figure in light our shifting frames of reference by gyrodynamic manipulations. The cross is self-similar because it is identical at all scales of view ( i.e.- the direct-entering dimension - or range from center.) and self- similar in rotation becasue it is identical at 90 degree increments of rotation (i.e. the tenkan dimension.) the simultaneous action of both aspects of juji is the spiral.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
But anyway, the description of juji was originally at my request to the statement of:Based at what I'm guessing Ueshiba's "juji" is from the above doka, I'm guessing its kinda irrelevant whether we have made "just" connection or crossed over into "resistance". By the manifest of *juji* (insert you preferred term here, harvested from a couple of recent threads), then tori should be able to control their partner.
Properly performed -- in application, nage-waza results in the disappearance of force from uke's perspective -- in uke-waza the same thing occurs, thus enabling kaeshi-waza. In training, the trick is to have enough connection/ force for uke and nage each to see WHERE the other is disappearing to -- if that makes some sense? An vector that becomes infinitesimal in magnitude still retains orientation.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
This kind of analysis risks glossing over the aspect of how to actually deal with resistance, and what it can tell you about a partner's energy/force/etc, and instead rushes into the "technique" side of things, which IMHO can be a road with many dead ends.
Full agreement there.
Quote:
David Findlay wrote:
These are just thoughts of mine, in progress, btw.
Likewise. If cared too much about possibly stumbling and tumbling in front of others, I would hardly be practicing aikido ... That is one of the real intellectual benefits of an rigorous forum on aiki principles (as topic and as the framing dynamic of that discussion).

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 08:54 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:59 AM   #35
Robert Rumpf
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.
Similar to the application of topspin or backspin in tennis.

Another analogy, is, I suppose the result of what you get when you hit a ball with "english" on it in pool into another ball.

Rob
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:22 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
Expansion-Contraction; Unification-Division; Motion-Stillness; Solidification-Fluidity.

Maybe the "powers" would be easier to understand if you translated them in the more commonly understood terms, Erick:

Contraction-Extension
Powerful-Relaxed
Motion-Stillness
Hard-Soft


I understand that you're trying to develop some over-arching theory, but I still don't see what it is. Sorry.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:01 AM   #37
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Mike Sigman wrote:
How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"?
I always lift my arm using the hara, and so do you and so does everyone else. The arm rotating against gravity creates rotational moment against the body, which I instinctively counter with a nearly instantaneous and imperceptible shift of my center to make it do work. Hence, my thoughts about the method of virtual work.

Conversely, if I apply my center motion first, in the same axis I can make my arm rise by the application of the reverse rotational moment, and without any use of the arm muscles except as connecting ligaments or springs. This is basic torifune (rowing) exercise. What I am saying is that aikido is merely the development of that basic function to more refined and precise ends, and made capable of intuitive adaptation.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Wouldn't that be a better practical start? Or Tohei's "ki tests"?
Wouldn't know, among the few aikido flavors I have never tried is Ki Society.

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Mike Sigman wrote:
And of course, ultimately you're left with that ideal of "stillness in motion"... i.e., the movements of articulated joints around axes is not the question anymore... to analyse.
A vector without magnitude (or infinitesimal magnitude, or even mere potential) still has orientation that describes the force system or field in play. An electromagnetic field is clearly oriented and perceptible even if there is zero magnitude of current flow. If my body and mind become capable of inferring an infintesimally small magnitude along the vector field, that is enough, according to the method of virtual work, to decipher the force system and resultant, and work can be applied in accordance with that information, in a plane that the attacker is incapable of resisting directly, and because he perceives no direct resistance to the attack, the information that the attacker's system is set up to signal a need alter or shift his attack is not present.

One of the reasons, it seems to me that aikido is so effective is that it relies on a fundamental retraining of the body and mind in ways that cannot be easily short-circuited for purposes of adapting by a attacker who is not similarly trained. BY analogy it is, in effect, much like a rewiring that creates AI architecture, than a defined function software patch; a modifcation to the operating system, if you will.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It appears to me that you're trying to apply a mechanical analysis to a strategy, at the moment, and I'm not sure a method of movement is itself the stratagy or tactic.
I am suggesting that aikido is beyond strategy and tactic, as it is beyond timing. Although effective in practice, as the economists say, it nevertheless is not possible in theory. Obviously, the problem lies with the theory.

Aikido is as much an information processing system as it is a strategic or tactical catalogue of physical techniques. It seems to be inadequately described by more conventional terms of mechnical understanding. Terms describing information systems generally also seem to breakdown in applcaition to aikido practice becasue of its ephemeral nature.

Aikido is almost unique in comparison to any other art on these two grounds, and distinguished very much from even its own lineage in Daito-ryu, primarily because of the innovative aspects of takemusu (creative technique) and ki musubi (connecting energy) (Taijiquan being a very possible and strong exception to this statement.) Thus, I am reaching for different approaches to the understanding of what it accomplishes to broaden the applicaiton of Western sensibilities to its refinement and expansion.

All of O-Sensei's imagery must be considered in its context, as the man was a very serious person. Tohaeis Four Principles are useful, too, but likewise are out of context in the West and thus require serious conceptual translation, not merely lanugage transcription. Despite the too-easy denigration of his mythological views by some from a Western reductionist perpective, they are part of a system of vital cultural information and he seriously intended that they impart that information within that tradition.

I take him as seriously as he meant to be taken. He seriously meant aikido to have the broadest possible reach and penetration around the world. It has gone far in the mode of people willing to adopt and invest themselves in its native context. It can go farther however, by truly "going native" in the West. We now inform the context of most of the world, for better or worse. The first step is to thoroughly understand the native concepts without reducing their their fullness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ...

( Somebody PLEASE pick that one up ...)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:16 AM   #38
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Maybe the "powers" would be easier to understand if you translated them in the more commonly understood terms, Erick:

Contraction-Extension
Powerful-Relaxed
Motion-Stillness
Hard-Soft
Potayto, potahto. You got it. I have seen about four or five different expressions of those four pair in English. Nevermind the other Western tongues. If we wanted to avoid any native variations in connotation we wopuld simply use the original Japanese, no wait -- it was Chinese, no wait ... You see the regression problem, I am sure.

None of them seems any better (or worse) suited to comprehensibility, apart from their reference to some established scheme of reference or nomenclature. The problem is that for people not prepared to invest themselves in that background data the terms are something like distguishing -- florch, trept and gissit. Nonsense syllables that merely become names for non-verbal concepts.

Nomenclature is part of the point I am trying to step behind. Aircraft fly the same in Chinese or Japanese as in English. We often make (justifiable) fun of "Engrish" -- attempts at such transliteration of English by the Japanese (See a classic Zen-like example here:

http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish...nion-mind.jpg]

But we certainly risk doing no better by sticking to their terminology as mere labels in trying to teach our students, who may then make the same types of errors in application.

There must be a better way to digest this in native terms. We are very big on "better ways" in the Western tradition. There is a lot of math and thinking on things like gyrodynamics and other methods of analysis or physical analogy that may apply. For instance the math applicable to torque conversions in gyrodynamics is very much related to the math for electromagnetic fields and currents. This kind of analogue principle approach is very much the mainstay of Western tehcnical development

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 10:26 AM.

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Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:34 AM   #39
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Robert Rumpf wrote:
Similar to the application of topspin or backspin in tennis.
Another analogy, is, I suppose the result of what you get when you hit a ball with "english" on it in pool into another ball.
Bingo. The only difference is that (true to the motion in stillness ideal), nage/tori's motion in existing "spin" may be virtual, but uke's perception is the same. The active dampening/amplification and axis conversion of his applied force/torque at contact with tori/nage in proper ki musubi relationship and the expression of kokyu in proper technique is precisely the same in gyroscopic terms as if there were actual spin or oscillation.

That is the working theory, anyway. It fits well with the common training rubric of "think big -- act small" in terms of the movements being applied as traingn becomes more refined. Progressively one translates less and less actual movement into more and more of its virtual neuro-muscular counterpart (which I would hazard at analogizing as the measure of "kokyu power"). Certainly, this give a non-spooky basis to observe the pushing contrests O-Sensei would demonstrate with several uke or with an uke having him in obvious(?) mechanically disadvantageous position, if considered only statically.

The Segway works on this principle also, using various vibrational piezoelectric gyroscopes, as do modern "fly-by-wire" fighters, FWIW.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 10:42 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:45 AM   #40
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
I always lift my arm using the hara, and so do you and so does everyone else. The arm rotating against gravity creates rotational moment against the body, which I instinctively counter with a nearly instantaneous and imperceptible shift of my center to make it do work. Hence, my thoughts about the method of virtual work.
The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is that you are not making any distinction related to "sinking the qi". If the force origins, which you neglect to mention, are the same for all movements in your mechanical schema, then I think you're missing the essence of what is actually happening. I guess what I'm saying is that this is a fairly complex and radically different system of movement and you're not saying anything that meaningfully differentiates it from normal movement.

Generally speaking, someone lifting their arm uses mechanical attachment and forces based from the shoulder joint. Of course, it goes without saying that the shoulder is not totally isolated from the hara, so there are pulleys and levers, etc., working in conjunction with the muscles of the middle and lower back, etc., etc. However using exactly the same setup of connections, pulleys, and levers, but sourcing the arm-lift as an upward push from the locus of the "hara" gives radically different values in the operation of the connections, pulleys, and levers... if you see what I mean. Then, and worse yet, if you introduce a "connection" that works to connect the apparatus in a way it was not connected before (i.e., an extraneous variable), it's simply a different way of movement entirely, regardless of any discussion about gyro-dynamics, joints around an axis, etc.

And actually, what I just said is basically what happens. Your point about gyrodynamics is an attempt to explain a phenomenon of strategy and it's not a bad attempt, but I think it misses something essential by not taking into account the factors that I mentioned.
Quote:
A vector without magnitude (or infinitesimal magnitude, or even mere potential) still has orientation that describes the force system or field in play. An electromagnetic field is clearly oriented and perceptible even if there is zero magnitude of current flow.
Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is.

In reality, there is no such thing a "stillness in motion" that doesn't use forces, Erick.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:50 AM   #41
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
Potayto, potahto. You got it. I have seen about four or five different expressions of those four pair in English. Nevermind the other Western tongues.
Well, these basic principles are easy to show; the semantics would be a useless quibble.

Those 8 powers relate to the essential jin, the core jin, the "nei jin", the "peng jin", the jin that is the basis of kokyu, the "ki power".... whatever you want to call it. It is the jin/qi referred to by the comments about man being on the bridge between Heaven and Earth. Pretty easy to show.

Incidentally.... we're beginning to head back toward the thread topic.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

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Old 09-18-2006, 11:38 AM   #42
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is.
Eek... I wasn't thinking the emf thing through entirely... although I don't think my omission has much of an impact on what Erick was trying to say.

Mike
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:24 PM   #43
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
I take him as seriously as he meant to be taken. He seriously meant aikido to have the broadest possible reach and penetration around the world. It has gone far in the mode of people willing to adopt and invest themselves in its native context. It can go farther however, by truly "going native" in the West. We now inform the context of most of the world, for better or worse. The first step is to thoroughly understand the native concepts without reducing their their fullness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ...
I would rephrase that to say " that way, we can begin to add our distinctiveness to theirs..." Like the way Buddhism is adapted by different cultures to produce Chinese Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, American Buddhism. The different cultures adapt the understanding of Buddhism to make it distinct without losing the basic principals of the original Indian Buddhism.
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:20 PM   #44
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

[quote=Mike Sigman]The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is that you are not making any distinction related to "sinking the qi". If the force origins, which you neglect to mention, are the same for all movements in your mechanical schema, then I think you're missing the essence of what is actually happening. I guess what I'm saying is that this is a fairly complex and radically different system of movement and you're not saying anything that meaningfully differentiates it from normal movement.

Generally speaking, someone lifting their arm uses mechanical attachment and forces based from the shoulder joint. Of course, it goes without saying that the shoulder is not totally isolated from the hara, so there are pulleys and levers, etc., working in conjunction with the muscles of the middle and lower back, etc., etc. However using exactly the same setup of connections, pulleys, and levers, but sourcing the arm-lift as an upward push from the locus of the "hara" gives radically different values in the operation of the connections, pulleys, and levers... if you see what I mean. Then, and worse yet, if you introduce a "connection" that works to connect the apparatus in a way it was not connected before (i.e., an extraneous variable), it's simply a different way of movement entirely, regardless of any discussion about gyro-dynamics, joints around an axis, etc.

And actually, what I just said is basically what happens. Your point about gyrodynamics is an attempt to explain a phenomenon of strategy and it's not a bad attempt, but I think it misses something essential by not taking into account the factors that I mentioned.

[quote= Mike Sigman) Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is.

In reality, there is no such thing a "stillness in motion" that doesn't use forces, Erick. [/quote] I was actually trying to keep this at a more basic level without distinguishing between potential vector fields, electrical current, magnetic flux and photons and electrons in electromagnetic interaction. But your challenge presents a further opportunity to demonstrate analogies of axis and energy conversion principles at issue. I will attempt to meet it head on, but only for those interested -- so find it here on the AikiWEBLOG: "But Why?" that I started just for this-here purpose:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/journa...journal&j=7086

Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents.

In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation. The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack.

Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished. Chinese would describe this as following "li" 理 the principle of the grain of wood, which shaped itself to the forces under which it grew.

For students who do not yet grasp it from the inside at a cerebellar (balance center) level we have to "set up" defined interactions in bite-size quantities. This allows students to feel aspects of the right interaction in a regular manner.

We train to show aspects of ki musubi and takemusu aiki to our students. However, letting ki musubi and takemusu aiki show themselves is what we are really training for.

The more I look for it, the more I find applications of the concept of "juji" in this interaction between attack and technique. The more I see it, the more the examples that I see conform to my understanding of axis and energy conversison demonstrated by field laws and gyrodynamics.

Try thinking about the right hand rule when working through some techniques. That is my most practical result for useful training from this exploration so far. Maybe it will reveal more as I go on.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:33 PM   #45
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
llness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ...
I would rephrase that to say " that way, we can begin to add our distinctiveness to theirs..." Like the way Buddhism is adapted by different cultures to produce Chinese Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, American Buddhism. The different cultures adapt the understanding of Buddhism to make it distinct without losing the basic principals of the original Indian Buddhism.
Obviously, NOBODY got the Borg reference. Are all the real geeks truly dead?

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ..."

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 02:35 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:38 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Erick Mead wrote:
Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents.
That's fine, as far as 2 independent observations go, but you haven't established any relationship. I'm assuming this is just unsupported theory, then? I.e., "one is like the other, in my opinion", etc.?
Quote:

In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation.
"Allows"??? "Allows" is nice, but how does it work? Spontaneously? As an act of God? Etc. I.e., how does it work?
Quote:
The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack.
It sounds very much like you're looking at a "learned skill" and somehow saying that it "happens because of physical laws". Or am I misreading you?
Quote:
Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished.
The forces control what happens, Erick? You don't think there is some decision-making (i.e., "strategy") involved in what happens?
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:37 PM   #47
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents.
That's fine, as far as 2 independent observations go, but you haven't established any relationship. I'm assuming this is just unsupported theory, then? I.e., "one is like the other, in my opinion", etc.?
No, it is not mere opinion, but supported observation. I observe the right hand rule applying in many techniques, ikkyo particularly. It is speculative how closely the analogue holds, which is why I am still exploring it.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation.
"Allows"??? "Allows" is nice, but how does it work? Spontaneously? As an act of God? Etc. I.e., how does it work?
Degrees of freedom. My elbow allows radial motion in one plane and torsion around its longitudinal axis about another -- two degrees of freedom. Anything that impinges force upon me constrains my freedom in some dimension. The more closely I comprehend the mix of forces applied the more I can constrain my response in the most efficient channels. The fact of planar motion in gyrodynamic terms leaves me an entire separate axis in which to act, but within that axis there are still relative degrees of efficiency in converting his energy to work. Following those lines of least effort lead one to techniques defined by the circumstances of the moment. Like surfing the breaking wave, you turn when you can, or as you get better at it, you only turn when you must -- so as to leave no remaining energy along that line of travel unused.

Do you want a form book? There isn't any. There are key principles to obey illustrated in training techniques, mainly irimi-tenkan. There are sensations of opening to be felt and followed with connection. There are critical qualites of connection to learn to feel in ki musubi, the means of connected movement in kokyu tanden ho, and connected articulation in the form of juji. These openings, pusued with these qualities lead to appropriate technique and variations on technique by choosing to follow them wherever they lead. My strategy in aiki is not not to force technique, but to lie in wait for it to appear and then follow it, no matter where it goes. The prey's mistake is to show himself to the hunter -- after that it is just chasing it to ground. It is our evolutionary specialty, if the scientists are to be believed.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack.
It sounds very much like you're looking at a "learned skill" and somehow saying that it "happens because of physical laws". Or am I misreading you?
Who said it was a not a learned skill? Surfing a wave requires one to conform closely to the very large forces at play, but it is highly skilled behavior, nonetheless, in doing precisely that. Of course, I could "conform" with the wave by getting the break dropped on my head, but where's the art in that? Any durn fool can get himself caught inside. Most do, in fact.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished.
The forces control what happens, Erick? You don't think there is some decision-making (i.e., "strategy") involved in what happens?
I said "define" not "control." Once the conditions are defined by the connection, one or several actions may feel apropriate, in varying degree. The refinement of my training is in intuitively picking the one most suited to the occasion. A number will work within limits, but the more I have to choose -- the poorer my reliance is on ki musubi and takemusu as opposed to formulaic technique. That is the definition of grace in action after all. It really is more like surfing -- all I want as a strategy is a good ride. And no, I do not think there is any decision-making at the point of action in proper takemusu aiki technique. The decision-making comes in practice, and more practice, and in forums like this where we decide to choose and to reinforce the response of aiki to begin with. That is, in fact, the chief power of the art, as I see it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:02 PM   #48
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

I'm afraid you've lost me Erick.... all except the Borg Queen reference - sorry for not replying earlier - I was...um... doing the regeneration cycle thingie....

If I'm getting the gist of this, my understanding of what you're basically saying is along the lines of what Rob has been saying all along - re: the cross in Akuzawa's form of body axis training. However, my difficulty is in understanding how/why gyrodynamics is involved - I'm getting dizzy spinning in opposing directions trying to imagine how it even relates to weight transfer...

Ignatius
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:35 PM   #49
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

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Ignatius Teo wrote:
I'm afraid you've lost me Erick.... all except the Borg Queen reference - sorry for not replying earlier - I was...um... doing the regeneration cycle thingie....
That's all right -- you WILL be assimilated ...

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
If I'm getting the gist of this, my understanding of what you're basically saying is along the lines of what Rob has been saying all along - re: the cross in Akuzawa's form of body axis training. However, my difficulty is in understanding how/why gyrodynamics is involved - I'm getting dizzy spinning in opposing directions trying to imagine how it even relates to weight transfer...
I can't speak to Akuzsawa having no familiarity. The example Mike asked for "moving from hara" I gave with the raising of the arm. Consider instead the shift of body weight that started this thread. The body is a column that buckles in the middle. Weight shift is integral to balance -- along the line of the four legged stool with the two legs missing. It is an imperfect image hoever, because the tops and bottoms of legs of the stool are limited universal joints. Statically the whole apparatus should just teeter over to the side.

The thing that keeps us upright is a miniscule gyroscopic sway of the hips in a chaotic figure eight pattern that dampens the toppling sway caused by gravity.

We are always swaying between falling one way or the other. Irimi, done properly is simply arranging the sway to will that fall in the right direction to move laterally. Tenkan is willing the fall with a turn of the hips -- allowing the natural turn of the hips for balance to have its head and reorient in response to applied force.

Kokyu tanden ho allows the manipulation of the rotating/oscillating hip sway and thus affecting the opponent's weight distribution and transfer. In katate-dori I usually sense two forces - 1) an inward push and 2) an upward or downward rotation forming a plane of action. Whether it is upward or downward the plane is the same. My simultaneous response is a 1) lateral shift of the hip and arm, either opening outward or cutting inward, and 2) a torque of the arm and hip in a right or left spiral.

Which one is not really important -- the resulting plane of action is the same. This converts the motion of the forward translation and up/down rotation vertical/forward plane forming the attack -- into a phase-shifted rotation/translation in the lateral/vertical plane. It results in kuzushi because the shift of the attacking rotation into another plane is now out of phase with the balance sway system and thus almost immediately overruns its support into shikaku (one of the two missing legs of the stool).

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-18-2006 at 08:45 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:45 PM   #50
dps
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Re: What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Obviously, NOBODY got the Borg reference. Are all the real geeks truly dead?

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ..."
Wasn't the Borg quoting Buddha?
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