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Old 08-27-2006, 08:46 PM   #1
David Orange
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Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...I'm waiting for this separate thread on "Aikido Credentials" with bated breath. Should be easy to clear up my credentials...
Great, Mike. I somehow missed the thread where you addressed this previously.

Since we first crossed paths on the "What is Ki?" thread on e-budo, I've been wondering about your background in aikido. I've developed some respect for you since then, but I've still never seen your answer as to where, with whom and how long you trained in aikido.

And that has stood as a barrier to my developing deeper respect for you because I've seen you challenge other people as to their credentials in both tai chi and aikido and you have mentioned how important credentials are in Chinese martial arts, but you have refused in every case I've seen, to simply state your aikido background.

George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido.

It is true that Ueshiba OSensei never backed down from a challenge, but he never issued challenges, either and he never hesitated to say who had taught him. So it was disappointing to see you post your address and, elsewhere, imply that you would pay a visit on people who questioned your aikido credentials rather than just answer the question.

So please, with all due respect, would you just outline here your background in aikido--and any other arts in which you've studied that you'd care to outline. It will clear up a lot of pointless talk.

And by the way, while it is warriorly to post your address on these boards, it's really not a good idea in the internet age. With your name and address, your SSN is only a few mouse clicks away and someone who wants to hurt you can really get under your skin before you know what has happened.

Again, with all due respect, and hoping we can meet as friends.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:41 AM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Since we first crossed paths on the "What is Ki?" thread on e-budo, I've been wondering about your background in aikido. I've developed some respect for you since then, but I've still never seen your answer as to where, with whom and how long you trained in aikido.
I simply don't get into the "credentials" things for a couple of reasons (not that I really mind saying them, if it's germane, though):

1. Every pretentious loser I've ever met has good-*sounding* credentials. I.e., credentials tell me very little (granted there is *some* information, but not necessarily very much). I've met guys from places I've never heard that have eclectic martial-arts credentials and who have had skills that impress me.... most of that, they usually get on their own. I've met guys who had "name" teachers and who "studied in Japan or China for 12 years" that know forms, applications, buzzwords, have cool anecdotes, etc., but who have no basic body skills.

2. My own skills (which I have freely posted are only so-so) cover many years and many teachers. In discussing these things, I've found that despite the facades everyone likes to adopt, diplomacy and a retiring personality just get you shoved under the mat. If you're an information seeker, the way I admittedly am, you have to be blunt and on the line in order to accumulate the greatest amount of information in the shortest amount of time.

3. Since I personally choose to sometimes to have an adversarial discussion, I try to leave the names of teachers, friends, sources (who wouldn't want to have their names used), etc.

While sure, I'm fully aware that I antagonize some people, you need to be aware that at the same time I garner a lot of similar-minded people/friends who are clinically involved and curious in the martial arts. Usually the people I wind up on the wrong side of are the people I wouldn't want to be friends with, anyway, so I don't pay much attention. The proof-in-the-pudding to my admittedly-not-perfect approach is, for example, that I have gathered an *enormous* amount of useable (to me) information in the last year and a half from *Aikido* sources.... something I would have never dreamed possible 2 years ago.

So, to answer your question, I started in Aikido after many years of competition Judo and Okinawan Karate. I'm sure I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston. Although there was discussion about me testing for shodan at that point (7 or 8 years total), I simply had begun to lose interest in Aikido as a source for the jin/kokyu skills, so I left as an ikkyu and went looking to find if I could get good information from Chinese teachers. Bear in mind, that at that point, I set up my habit of dropping any teacher who appeared to have limited information and I refused to continue if I didn't see a path of substantive progress ahead of me. No information, no stayee.
Quote:
And that has stood as a barrier to my developing deeper respect for you because I've seen you challenge other people as to their credentials in both tai chi and aikido and you have mentioned how important credentials are in Chinese martial arts, but you have refused in every case I've seen, to simply state your aikido background.
Where? I go by what someone says about basic skills. Almost nothing I say is beyond a fairly basic level. Someone knows, they can talk, argue, question, etc., and it's a good conversation. Someone doesn't know and they try to BS that they do know, they might fool themselves, but they don't fool me or a number of lurkers on this and other forums. It boils down to that old question: "Who do you really want to impress??... the people who are qualified and have some expertise or the beginners who will rely on your 'credentials' as a sign that you indeed have status and knowledge". I simply don't play the games. I don't want someone's "respect", David, as a goal. I find that I make friends fairly easily with like-minded martial artists and I get to exchange information and ideas with them. "Respect" to me has connotations of knowledge, not 'credentials'.
Quote:
George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido.
Cool, but you weren't there when I met with George and Rich Moore, so you really don't know what I showed them. Hitting someone to impress them wasn't at all what I remember... my thoughts of the meeting go back to what jin skills were discussed and accomplished and who could do what, what their experience was, etc. Besides, I don't need to "tap" anyone. If some part of my body is touching a person, it should be enough. All the things we were talking about were in relation to skills that were useable in Aikido, BTW.
Quote:
It is true that Ueshiba OSensei never backed down from a challenge, but he never issued challenges, either and he never hesitated to say who had taught him. So it was disappointing to see you post your address and, elsewhere, imply that you would pay a visit on people who questioned your aikido credentials rather than just answer the question.
My "Aikido credentials" have nothing to do with it, and the posts were pretty clear about it. If I was rude and obnoxious, name-calling to someone who was really a martial artist and he suddenly showed up and wanted to try it on, I wouldn't be surprised or "disappointed", since I had started the attack. Is it your feeling that it's should be safe to claim as a "credential" that you are a "martial artist" and yet be surprised when you name-call from behind a keyboard and they want to see your credentials as a "martial artist"? Really? My suggestion would be that you don't set the definition for martial artist.... other people may have other ideas.
Quote:
Again, with all due respect, and hoping we can meet as friends.
David, you picked your own path with me in some of your posts on E-Budo. I'm not interested. If you demonstrably understood the basic ki and kokyu skills, that would have come out by now. I don't take the ki and kokyu skills as a tireless subject that I beat to death, I take them as the unavoidable threshold to understanding Asian martial arts.

As Ushiro Sensei said, "No Kokyu, no Aikido". It's simply impossible to honestly and correctly discuss Aikido, Karate, Taiji, Xingyi, the "Koryu", Sumo, etc., etc., without those topics as the baseline entre'. They are not some sort of maybe-useful-maybe-not addendum. Accept that as a fact. Do you want me to "pretend" that it's not so and to have "respectful" discussions in which out of "friendliness" I pretend that it's not so????? What would be the point?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:59 AM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

I wanted to keep this part separate from my previous response:

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
George Ledyard Sensei spoke very well of your ability to generate power very easily, but I know people who can do that and claim no knowledge of aikido. Ron Epstein, for one, showed me one of his favorite techniques--light uppercut digs just below the ribs. He showed me only the form and tapped my abs just a few times, putting no effort into it at all, but I felt "power" coming out my back. It was one of the most startling sensations I ever had. It was excellent karate, but it was not aikido.
I have no idea who Ron Epstein is (I've seen the name somewhere maybe), but for you to say whatever he did "was no Aikido" is for you to claim credentials in Aikido. If you have credentials in Aikido, the to paraphrase Tohei, "what do you do for ki?". What sort of punch/tap to the ribs would someone in Aikido use in a similar demonstration. How would they use kokyu and ki power? Let's see your credentials. Think of it like this, in relation to credentials:

(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu. I have demonstrable skills in these things and I can write enough descriptions so that people who also have some knowledge of these basic skills can spot it by what I say that's right and what I say that's wrong. You have demonstrated on E-Budo that you don't really have a knowledge of these things, but let's say I was wrong. Show us what you know.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?

Unless I wildly miss my guess, I'm sure this also applies to David Skaggs, Brad Pruitt and others.... and their own instructors. Easy way to prove me wrong, though, and I'm happy to see anything that shows me wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-28-2006 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:17 AM   #4
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So, to answer your question, I started in Aikido after many years of competition Judo and Okinawan Karate. I'm sure I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston. Although there was discussion about me testing for shodan at that point (7 or 8 years total),
Thank You
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:24 AM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Thank You
From my previous post:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu. I have demonstrable skills in these things and I can write enough descriptions so that people who also have some knowledge of these basic skills can spot it by what I say that's right and what I say that's wrong. You have demonstrated on E-Budo that you don't really have a knowledge of these things, but let's say I was wrong. Show us what you know.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?

Unless I wildly miss my guess, I'm sure this also applies to David Skaggs, Brad Pruitt and others.... and their own instructors. Easy way to prove me wrong, though, and I'm happy to see anything that shows me wrong.
I've established my credentials on both levels, David. You have credentials, presumably, in number 1. What are your credentials in number 2? Do you see how having credentials in number 1, without in number 2, can simply indicate a superficial shell of credentials? As Ushiro noted, "No kokyu, no Aikido". Surely someone that "knows kokyu" well enough to "teach Aikido" can establish their understanding in a few words? Wouldn't you agree? Now, what are your credentials in Aikido?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:43 AM   #6
dps
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Re: Aikido Credentials

From my post three days ago on the "Bush Is" thread,

" I never bad mouthed you or questioned your ability or knowledge about Tai Chi or the internal strength training. I studied Tai Chi for about a month twenty years ago and do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to make claims about it. I have studied Aikido. From 1985 to 1990 I practiced Aikido two to four times a week at Youngstown State University under Sensei Larry Hlywa from New Castle Aikikai and Sensei Chuck Cycyk of the Youngstown Aikikai. The early part of my training we were not affiliated with any organization to receive ranking. The last few years we were under the United States Aikido Federation and I was fourth kyu when due to a work accident I had to quit. Sixteen years later I started actively practicing in Shodokan Aikido under Sensei Michael Gelum in the Japanese Aikido Association/ USA where I am starting as a white belt again.

This is the information that I am asking you to provide to establish your credentials as a person who has studied Aikido as you have claimed."


Also the same information has been available in my public profile.
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Old 08-28-2006, 12:08 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
From my post three days ago on the "Bush Is" thread,

" I never bad mouthed you or questioned your ability or knowledge about Tai Chi or the internal strength training. I studied Tai Chi for about a month twenty years ago and do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to make claims about it. I have studied Aikido. From 1985 to 1990 I practiced Aikido two to four times a week at Youngstown State University under Sensei Larry Hlywa from New Castle Aikikai and Sensei Chuck Cycyk of the Youngstown Aikikai. The early part of my training we were not affiliated with any organization to receive ranking. The last few years we were under the United States Aikido Federation and I was fourth kyu when due to a work accident I had to quit. Sixteen years later I started actively practicing in Shodokan Aikido under Sensei Michael Gelum in the Japanese Aikido Association/ USA where I am starting as a white belt again.

This is the information that I am asking you to provide to establish your credentials as a person who has studied Aikido as you have claimed."


Also the same information has been available in my public profile.
Fine, but none of the information you provided tells us if you or your instructor even understand the cornerstone of Aikido. And since it's become apparent in a lot of discussions on various forums that most western Aikido (and Taiji, Karate, etc.) are actually bereft of these skills, someone's "credentials" can't be deteremined with time and rank, apparently. So your insistence on seeing my "credentials" has been answered, now I want to know about your full credentials. Heck, I'm even interested in the credentials of your instructor, in terms of the ki/kokyu things.

But let's think about that for a second. If your instructor is like the vast number of "instructors" in the West, he probably doesn't know much about the Ki and Kokyu things. That makes the conversation sort of awkward when we justifiably make that a part of "credentials", doesn't it? What should we do? Should we try to toss that out of credentials and pretend that the ki/kokyu things are some unnecessary adjunct of Aikido? Hmmmmmm. No, that won't work, because "no kokyu, no Aikido". Besides there's a very strong ethics point that comes up..... how can someone claim to be a "teacher" of Aikido and understand the "deep subtleties" of Aikido (or any other art... I'm just making the debate issue around Aikido) and yet not understand the complex and subtle aspects of the ki/kokyu skills?

It's interesting to note, as I have done once before, that once someone of Ikeda Sensei's caliber and ethics got a source for kokyu training, he went for it and *at the same time* provided it for all the students that he could. That makes him a helluva person and a helluva teacher, in my mind. Then I look at the lethargic responses of a number of other teachers (not all, of course, some are going to wind up way ahead of others, as usual, by their own efforts)..... where's the beef????

The really critical question for everyone who is a teacher is this: If you put up a shingle as a teacher and you take the trust, loyalty, and dues of well-meaning students, you owe it to them to teach the full art. If you deliberately blow off or trivialize the critical skills and continue on with the role-playing, costume-wearing, buzzword pronouncing aspect of "Aikido", where does this "harmony" and "love" for your students come in??? Part of someone's "credentials" has to be the cornerstone knowledge of the ki/kokyu skills and any teacher who lethargically shrugs off the responsibility of getting those skills and providing it for their students needs to have some deep thoughts about what are credentials and what debt do they ethically owe students by continued search for information.

Of course, in the real world, this lack is a fairly recently revelation and it will take some time to correct. But the part about the ethical debt to students and also the realization that every teacher's own reputation will be on the line 10 years from now in terms of how much they understand these things should be understood.

So I don't mind answering questions about "credentials", but it's a can of worms when you open it, David. You opened it.. why not open it for everyone??? For discussion's sake, I would posit that while in actuality my credentials in Aikido are fairly limited, when you add in what I know about ki/kokyu things, the total weight of the credentials makes it a weird study in exactly what "credentials" means because I could submit for discussion the position that I know more *total* Aikido (and logically it's somewhat defensible, even if speciously).

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 12:08 PM   #8
Neal Earhart
 
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So, to answer your question, I started in Aikido after many years of competition Judo and Okinawan Karate. I'm sure I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston. Although there was discussion about me testing for shodan at that point (7 or 8 years total) Mike Sigman
Indeed a small world in Aikido...I started with James Walsh (he was in PA at the time), who was in Florida years ago with Steve House. I believe Steve was one of Jim's very early students.

I have also trained with T.K. Lee when I would travel to Houston on business. I used to send T.K. one of our company's calendar's each year (up until they stopped printing them)...for some reason he liked the Swiss countryside photos as presented by Ciba-Geigy.
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Old 08-28-2006, 12:40 PM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Neal Earhart wrote:
Indeed a small world in Aikido
'Tis indeed.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:09 PM   #10
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And since it's become apparent in a lot of discussions on various forums that most western Aikido (and Taiji, Karate, etc.) are actually bereft of these skills,
Arguments by geography don't really hold much weight. Neither does assessing someones' physical capability by looking at the text they write.

For example, if I was going to assess your taijiquan skills, I wouldn't look at what you write, but look at you actually sparring, using them in a more real situation instead of a trick or stationary drill.

Quote:
.... how can someone claim to be a "teacher" of Aikido and understand the "deep subtleties" of Aikido (or any other art... I'm just making the debate issue around Aikido) and yet not understand the complex and subtle aspects of the ki/kokyu skills?
This hypothetical teacher may not emphasize what you do, how you do it, or the terms you use.

Quote:
The really critical question for everyone who is a teacher is this: If you put up a shingle as a teacher and you take the trust, loyalty, and dues of well-meaning students, you owe it to them to teach the full art.
They teach the art as they understand it. If you believe you have the "full art", you are welcome to teach it as you understand it.

Now where is your 'family roll' that you were pestering me about in the thread on Zheng style taijiquan to prove you were a student of any of those people?


Justin

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"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:37 PM   #11
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(1.) I have verifiable time, etc., studying Aikido. Some rank. Some knowledge of techniques and surrounding practices, etc. You do to.

(2.) Aikido, like a number of other martial arts of Asia, is simply an external shell without knowledge of the basics of ki/kokyu.

The question comes down to the idea of if someone has "Aikido credentials" they should have both number 1 and number 2, since the ki/kokyu things are a cornerstone to the "move from the hara always" movement of Aikido. If we both have credentials in number 1, but only one of us has credentials in number 2, who really has credentials???? Nice philosophical discussion, isn't it?
Well, you claim so much aikido background, but you admitted that most of it was with teachers who couldn't even teach you anything. Yet when you want to make claims, it was good enough to say that you have aikido background. Why did you hang around so long with people that didn't know the truth? Why didn't you go to Japan and find the real heart of the matter?

Well, as to the 1 and 2 things, I guess my number 1 beats yours, but wouldn't it amount to a "pissing match" to say so?

On the other hand, I have to say, you are definitely full of Number 2.

Best to ya, Mike.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:44 PM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, you claim so much aikido background, but you admitted that most of it was with teachers who couldn't even teach you anything.
I think I'm about at the end of watching you make absurd attributions about things I never said, David. You're dishonest, if nothing else. One last time: cite, please.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:51 PM   #13
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:

poop

Justin
man, the chihuahua never lets up does it?
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:11 PM   #14
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
...I'm about at the end of watching you make absurd attributions about things I never said, David. You're dishonest, if nothing else. One last time: cite, please.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I started in 1974 or 1975 with Steve House in Hollywood, Florida... under Yamada's line. I had numerous other short-term encounters and teachers and I wound up with T.K. Lee in Houston...I left as an ikkyu and went looking to find if I could get good information from Chinese teachers. Bear in mind, that at that point, I set up my habit of dropping any teacher who appeared to have limited information and I refused to continue if I didn't see a path of substantive progress ahead of me. No information, no stayee.
Excuse me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you left each of those teachers because he appeared to have limited information.

Isn't that what you intended to say? It sounded like it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-28-2006, 08:15 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Excuse me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you left each of those teachers because he appeared to have limited information.
Only the last one, if you'll read it. I moved from Florida to Houston because of a job relocation. You just seem to make it up as you go.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:51 PM   #16
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Only the last one, if you'll read it. I moved from Florida to Houston because of a job relocation. You just seem to make it up as you go.
From the bulk of your statements and your voluminous outpouring of posts, I got the impression that you were saying none of these people had the basic information or else were withholding it from you. Because when you got to T.K. Lee and almost to black belt, you decided to go to the Chinese for information on jin/kokyu skills.

Sounds like you had summed up all that aikido background as a dead end. Why didn't you go to Japan to find the real source of it? Then you wouldn't have to feel around for meanings to assign to words that already have old, longstanding meanings.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-28-2006, 09:05 PM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
From the bulk of your statements and your voluminous outpouring of posts, I got the impression
Oh... well if you got an impression, I guess that's almost the same thing as a direct quote and therefore it was OK to misconstrue it. Hmmmmm.
Quote:
Sounds like you had summed up all that aikido background as a dead end. Why didn't you go to Japan to find the real source of it? Then you wouldn't have to feel around for meanings to assign to words that already have old, longstanding meanings.
Well, you're a case in point, David. You don't know the number 2 I mentioned briefly before, yet you consider yourself an expert. It's dangerous out there. The world is full of role-players.

So I did decide to go to the source. Given that I knew "Ki" came from "Qi" and so did so many other things derive from China... plus the descriptions of the unreal-sounding feats in Japan and China sounded the same... I reasoned that the origins were probably from China, even though I had a bad impression of things Chinese. But I reasoned it out and luckily Houston has a massive Chinese population and I was on my way. Not that I just ran into success, but at least I kept making small steps. In Aikido, I *knew* the power was there, but I couldn't find any teachers who had more than bits or pieces.

So, even though you're being snide about it, you're not far off what really happened.

BTW.... this stuff isn't all that easy to learn. People that start too late don't have much of a chance of reconfiguring the way that they're used to moving. That's one additional reason why I keep suggesting that people get a little more serious.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 10:29 PM   #18
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
the descriptions of the unreal-sounding feats in Japan and China sounded the same... In Aikido, I *knew* the power was there, but I couldn't find any teachers who had more than bits or pieces.
Ok, so you WERE saying that none of your teachers really understood aikido, right?

Jeez, you keep saying things, then claiming you didn't say them, then you turn around and say them again. Have you not noticed that?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So, even though you're being snide about it, you're not far off what really happened.
That's why I said it. YOU wrote it, I read it back to you. If it sounds snide, that's because I'm reading Mike Sigman back to you.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
BTW.... this stuff isn't all that easy to learn. People that start too late don't have much of a chance of reconfiguring the way that they're used to moving. That's one additional reason why I keep suggesting that people get a little more serious.
No, it's not easy to learn. I went 10,000 miles and spent five years in Japan to get the best I could. All you really need is basic aikido technique and an uke who doesn't fall down just because you move your fingers.

But tell me, Mike, why was it that this big German guy was able to punch me in the ribs and not move me, not knock the breath out of me, not affect me in any way? And why do you think the three of them shut up and continued the lesson with me after that?

They weren't going to classes after work. They had traveled thousands of miles to see the man regarded as "The Father of Japanese Martial Arts" in Europe and he put them under my instruction.

I know you're just overflowing with Number 2, Mike. You're so full of it, you wouldn't be able to hear anyone else if they did tell you the truth. You've got Number 2 coming out of your ears.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:32 PM   #19
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Peer pressure is a terrible thing when it's the wrong pressure. That's why it's so good to have one's butt kicked now and again to "empty one's cup", or at least addle the contents. I've been trying the pushout with people at aikido, asking them to just push however they like (only I am standing in the straight-knee position). I learn something each time, especially when I'm pushed over. It makes me work harder and harder on the legs, despite the pain, because every time I try this pushout, I know my legs are still not connected to my back properly and I use the arms to disperse a large part of the force. I need something like that to keep me from becoming lazy. Much easier to fantasize about kokyu than to realize it in one's own body.

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 08-28-2006 at 11:33 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:31 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
But tell me, Mike, why was it that this big German guy was able to punch me in the ribs and not move me, not knock the breath out of me, not affect me in any way? And why do you think the three of them shut up and continued the lesson with me after that?
Because you're actually Dan Harden?

Mike
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:02 AM   #21
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Because you're actually Dan Harden?

Mike
Exactly.

It has taken you a long time, but you have finally figured it out. I've been posting under multiple IDs. My real name is Danvid Oranden. You win the Golden Buddha Robe for figuring it out and you are now ready to found your own style.

I hereby name you Master of Sigmando. You may pronounce it: Zygmundo.

Danvid

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:07 AM   #22
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Exactly.

It has taken you a long time, but you have finally figured it out. I've been posting under multiple IDs. My real name is Danvid Oranden. You win the Golden Buddha Robe for figuring it out and you are now ready to found your own style.

I hereby name you Master of Sigmando. You may pronounce it: Zygmundo.

Danvid
I dunno..... you're going to have to improve on your schtick quite a bit if you have any hope of surpassing Justin Smith for the AikiWeb SPD Award. But's it's interesting to see the top contender from Aikido against Cheng Man Ching's best (and believe me, they have quite a few to draw from).

Best of Luck.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:16 AM   #23
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Aikido Credentials

I have no hope of surpassing anyone, Mike. We each have earned what we have and I am content with that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 08-29-2006, 12:46 PM   #24
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Re: Aikido Credentials

This thread is a total waste of bandwidth! Why don't you two do everyone a favor, and take your disregard for each other and this discussion offline?

Robert Cronin
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Old 08-29-2006, 01:24 PM   #25
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido Credentials

Hi Robert,

As soon as you saw the thread was about "credentials", you should have known...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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