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Old 09-05-2006, 12:29 AM   #26
xuzen
 
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Wayne Price wrote:
Can someone clarify this please, I think it was in the 1930's when Shioda Sensei was at the Kobukan?
The reason I put up the clip of O Sensei (which I believe was his last public teaching or demonstration) was because Ueshiba Sensei is doing almost the same as Watanabe Sensei, except I believe it is a bit more believable because his Ukes are not flipping.
Wayne
Nope it was not Shioda Kancho. Kancho has adamentium bones, he does not break easily. (Sorry for the jest). It was someone else and the name slip my mind at the moment.

Boon.

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Old 09-05-2006, 12:43 AM   #27
wayneth
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

The Ukes at that demonstration were Tsutomu Yukawa and Gozo Shioda. There is an interview of Shioda Sensei in Aikido Journal, he is asked about Ueshiba Senseis demonstration to the emperor.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...ba+and+Emperor
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:38 AM   #28
raul rodrigo
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

on the other hand, the chances of getting injured on this technique are pretty low.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:59 AM   #29
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).
lol

I think it easy to look at something like that and have opionions about it....but he could have been making a point about something..We can't hear what he said before or after.

I also believe that things are possible that we don't understand,.

Mary.
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:49 AM   #30
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
My question to members of aikiweb, what is your verdict, are these type of no touch throw fake aikido?
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido? It is obvious that Watanabe Sensei's uke are cooperating with him. That's the point. The ideal is a finely tuned sense of oneness with one's sensei. I remember the times I could reach that state with Yamaguchi Sensei. It was really a nice feeling. I always felt honored to take ukemi for Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans. It got so that he really had to tell you to resist, because we new it would hurt more, but he wanted to demonstrate a principle so we would bear down and wait for the pain. Never a thought that he would injure us, but the pain was significant. But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration. I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:30 AM   #31
Don_Modesto
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?
Good question. Strikes to the heart of the issue.

Truth be told, as one never--NEVER--sees teachers reversed during demos, we know that we are seeing "demonstration" aikido, as opposed to that idea of the fluid reversal of UKE/NAGE roles. As you said, "But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration."
Quote:
....Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans.
I'd like to hear Szc...'s comments here. He once wrote unfavorably of Y. for NOT wanting strong attacks.
Quote:
I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was.
Lucky you. I only took his UKEMI once or twice.

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 09-05-2006 at 07:42 AM.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:48 AM   #32
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido? It is obvious that Watanabe Sensei's uke are cooperating with him. That's the point. The ideal is a finely tuned sense of oneness with one's sensei. I remember the times I could reach that state with Yamaguchi Sensei. It was really a nice feeling. I always felt honored to take ukemi for Yamaguchi Sensei. He would often ask me to resist him in class, as I am kinda big and he loved demonstrating the effectives of aikido on large Americans. It got so that he really had to tell you to resist, because we new it would hurt more, but he wanted to demonstrate a principle so we would bear down and wait for the pain. Never a thought that he would injure us, but the pain was significant. But I would never think of resisting or testing his aikido in a public demonstration. I always tried to keep up with his aikido as best I could and he was kind enough to slow it down as best he could, and every so often our aikido would meet-and oh how sweet it was.
Mr Wood,

In your profile you give Yamaguchi Iwao as your primary teacher. Some of us, however, thought that the Yamaguchi you referred to in your earlier post was the late Yamaguchi Seigo, 9th Dan Hombu Shihan. Are we talking about the same person?

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:51 AM   #33
kocakb
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

[quote=Ricky Wood]My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?QUOTE]

Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:27 AM   #34
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Mr Wood,

In your profile you give Yamaguchi Iwao as your primary teacher. Some of us, however, thought that the Yamaguchi you referred to in your earlier post was the late Yamaguchi Seigo, 9th Dan Hombu Shihan. Are we talking about the same person?

Best wishes,
Sorry for the confusion.
I am referring to Iwao Yamaguchi Sensei of Okinawa Aikikai.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:30 AM   #35
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

[quote=Bülent Koçak]
Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?QUOTE]

Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...
I would only say that there is a time and a place for everything.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:58 AM   #36
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

I think every shihan (aikikai or not) developed his own ‘system' of aikido teaching. As many of those shihans were/are direct students of O sensei, those systems are not very far away from each other, yet. So one can find a lot of similarities and it creates illusion, that we can understand teaching somebody out of our own system.

IMO it is not a case at all. I think, after 50 years of shihan's practice, those systems became very hermetic. One of example can be Yamaguchi sensei, or Saito sensei……Similar looking exercise or technique IS used for completely different purposes in every system. If you take this exercise out of system, out of context, its meaning is lost.

The only common point is --- they all try to teach their understanding of O sensei aikido. So we can talk here only about efficiency of this particular methodology of teaching by using this or other exercise.

Now, O sensei teaching wasn't destined to normal people. His students were advanced martial artist. Some shihans understood it and developed pedagogical approach that let us learn some valuable things. Other shihans, for some secret reasons, developed very strange pedagogy that is inaccessible for 99.9999% of aikidoka. I think Watanabe sensei and Yamaguchi sensei are some of them. So study of their system is waste of time.

As for demo, I agree with Peter A.G.
As a consequence, I expect from my attacker looking for openings during whole technique, and do counter if possible. And I don't punish him by some kind of karate-like strikes, or imposing false authority as instructor. My technique can fail, of course, and even IF I do a demo, I'm not pretending to be better then my actual level.

Nagababa

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Old 09-05-2006, 09:13 AM   #37
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Bülent Koçak wrote:
Cooperation is very important, especially in demonstrations. But should it also not have a limit? I mean, is it correct to take ukemi even the nage has not applied a technique: like no touch throw...
Would it not fooling myself, my partner and the public (people outside dojo would just smile and think "the guy is like Neo (Matrix)")...and fake aikido is one of the main reason why we always discuss "is aikido effective" etc...
From my very limited training in Japan, I think there is VERY big difference in the spirit of practice. In Japan, aikikai teachers (Hombu included) expect uke do everything to harmonize with nage and any resistance is perceived as personal challenge. So nobody cares about efficiency of techniques.

In North America and Europe, efficiency of techniques is far more important, so instructors had to develop the methods that match spirit of local population.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:42 AM   #38
wayneth
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:44 PM   #39
markwalsh
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Can any Shihan do this on an uke who is not looking - IE from behind? One video clip?

If not then it´s psychology, which is an aspect of aikido sure.
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:05 PM   #40
Keith R Lee
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Wayne Price wrote:
There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne
Or not.

Try that on anyone whose never tried Aikido and they would look at you funny and then grab you.

Keith Lee
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:13 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Yikes! Who (or what) is that talking to Abe Sensei? I'll be watching the entire clip in a second...

I can say that Abe Sensei (at 90 some years of age) climbed 4 flights of stairs and threw everyone in the room when I saw him in Iowa. Now, when I say threw...it was a cooperative environment, and he is 90 something. But man, I'd love to be in that shape at 90...

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-05-2006, 04:10 PM   #42
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Wayne Price wrote:
There is another video on youtube about the same subject----no touch Aikido.
The man in subject is Abe Seiseki Sensei, so maybe a little bit more credible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmQOueRaW-c
Wayne
Is this kind of humor video (Just For Laugh)? I'm sure it can't be serious.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:56 PM   #43
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
Can any Shihan do this on an uke who is not looking - IE from behind? One video clip?

If not then it´s psychology, which is an aspect of aikido sure.
Maybe with a really, REALLY loud kiai...

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:39 PM   #44
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

A good Uke make's anything possible...
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:39 PM   #45
xuzen
 
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
My question to you is; What is fake aikido?
When we train and cooperate, is that fake aikido?
Ricky,

1) When the uke is falls down because his balance was broken by tori (i.e., by principle of kuzushi); it is NOT FAKE

2) When uke submits due to pain from Kansetsu-waza (joints manipulation); it is NOT FAKE

3) When uke flinch or try to avoid an incoming ATEMI and subsequently lost his balance and fell down; it is NOT FAKE

4) When uke falls down without offering full resistant to ASSIST tori in learning a certain technique; it is NOT FAKE

5) When tori claps hand and uke does a 360 degree flip at a distance of 10 feet away from tori; it is QUESTIONABLE.

Boon.

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Old 09-06-2006, 12:53 AM   #46
wayneth
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

I think that it is meant to be a comedy portrayal of Aikido. Probably why Abe Senseis student feel uncomfortable?
The Abe Sensei part I don't know about, maybe it is true.
Wayne
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:33 AM   #47
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Short comment only. Japanese television takes entertainment seriously, since it's a business, with regalia of all sorts, it's hilariously funny at times. I don't know who the viewers were going to be, but in the program Abe sensei talks about "ki", both in calligraphy and in aikido, and how they are the same thing. He demonstrates the extension of "ki" in aikido techniques. It is enough to feel to "ki", there is no need for a bodily throw to get the lesson across. As a matter of interest, he does attempt to get people to stand properly and learn how to grip with their body not their extremities. Through that connection one can then differentiate pure muscle strength from that containing the element of "ki" in addition. And no, noone is being thrown by an unknown force, the students throw themselves in accordance with the training paradigm.
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Old 09-06-2006, 02:30 AM   #48
wayneth
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Thanks Gernot, can you explain what he was doing when someone held his hand and then he held that persons other hand; Almost like Nigiri-ho. Then he transferred the power through to the other hand, or something like that.
Is this the type of thing Abe Sensei is famed for doing?
Wayne
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:23 AM   #49
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Hi Wayne, If I have the same thing in mind, here is he trying to show the other person how to hold properly, by gripping him at the same time, and stopping the breath again and again until the other person starts to do something approaching that. Abe sensei doesn't try to throw people, he tries to get them to stand, grip and stop breath in a certain manner. When he demonstrates with ukes, he is teaching them this, and they are falling in line with that entering force, not because the force is actually strong enough (at that point) to throw them bodily. I'll tell you though that I asked him about all this extension thing a number of times, and once he said there's no need to be violent, it's just the leading, but you can add your own to it at any point, and promptly dropped his hand, and me attached to it, to the ground. I didn't have time to let go completely, so I went down partly even though I was letting go already. Pretty powerful for a 90-year old guy :-) I don't know what he's famous for over where you are. He's well-known as a calligrapher (he teaches, that his profession). At his 88th birthday the aikido people were on one side of the hall, and the shodo people on the other. Abe sensei gave a speech on the podium, telling us that shodo and aikido are identical in basis, and that if the shodo people want to get some exercise, they should come to his aikido classes. Slavering as we were at the gorgeous ladies over there, we all agreed heartily :-)

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 09-06-2006 at 05:24 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:44 AM   #50
davidafindlay
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Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!

Man, Abe sensei sounds like a dude, and a good teacher. Suspect you're pretty lucky, Gernot

Cheers,
Dave.

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