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Old 08-18-2005, 09:52 PM   #1
Upyu
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Wink Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Sup guys,

So I found this guy here in Japan that weighs around 60kgs that can do some crazy stuff.
His favorite trick is for 100kg+ guys to grab his pinky and try and break it.
Then he throws them around w/ it.

And yea, he can do far more than the parlor trick I mentioned above...
At one point he was recorded as dishing out 480+ kg of force from a strike w/ no windup. All of this stuff he can apply in an "alive" setting, so he'll take anything you can throw at him.

As far as the instructors background, he used to train in Daitoryu in Sagawa's Dojo before the old man kicked the bucket, and uses similar aiki training methedology, as well as some new ones you may have not experienced.

I made a thread over @ bullshido about the guy here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26158

and so far no one except for one thai boxer stepped up, but he wrote up his experience here, if you want an objective opinoin:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=26158&page=10

Anyways, he's lookin for more people to join the class, preferably those in the heavier weight class, but anyone who's interested is welcome to join.

We hold class from 7-9pm in Fujimidai off of the Seibu Ikebukuro Line on Saturdays.
Either PM me, or mail me at foshizzlepizzle@hotmail.com if you want more info, or are interested in attending.
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Old 08-18-2005, 10:04 PM   #2
ald1225
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Sounds like O-Sensei... I believe you, some people have skills. It would be great if you can get a video too.

Quote:

Please break my finger

As a direct student of Abbe Sensei I asked one day whilst we were traveling to a seminar
"Sensei, how did you first become a student of O'Sensei and Aikido"?
He smiled as he reminisced for a few moments then told me the following story:

He said that he was a young man at the time and the Judo champion of all Japan and traveling on a crowded train across Japan to yet another Judo competion.

Sitting opposite him in the same carriage was an old man who was trying to make some conversation with him, Abbe had his eyes closed as he tried to sleep.

The old man said to him " I know who you are" Abbe Sensei replied rather modestly " everyone knows who I am, I am Kenshiro Abbe champion of all Japan" he politely asked the old man who he was, the old man replied

"I am Morihei Ueshiba founder of Aikido" Abbe Sensei nodded politely and suggested that they now try to get some sleep, the old man suddenly stuck his hand forward and offered the smallest digit to this powerfully built young man, Abbe was stunned as the old man said " please break my finger" Abbe thought I will break his neck if he doesn't go to sleep, he was now becoming irritated by this old man, he immediately grasped the old mans finger in an attempt to shut him up, he freely admitted that in his frustration it was his intention to break the offending digit. To his total amazement he was suddenly slammed onto the carriage floor. As he lay prostrate and unable to move he knew he had to study with this master. He asked O'Sensei if he could study with him, O'Sensei agreed and Abbe stayed with O'Sensei for ten years.

O Sensei had spent many years studying various martial arts, I believe that the art of Daito-ryu and Ju-jitsu had more influence on the development of Aikido than anything else he had studied, and we know he went to Mongolia to fight and this would be the perfect opportunity to test his many skills in a real situation, so we can be in no doubt that this incredible man was a true warrior and modern Samurai.
http://searchwarp.com/swa6143.htm
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Old 08-18-2005, 10:27 PM   #3
NixNa
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Re: Instr. in Tokyo throws people w/ Pinky

Heh saw the thread on bullshitdo.net. Seems like tis jap guy is all for mma competitions, pls let me know if he really enters one.. gonna be an eye opener hoho
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:23 AM   #4
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Paige:

There's a trick you can do with your body if you relax and practice a lot. You can let a path from the ground run from your foot (or whatever has access to the ground; even your butt in a chair)
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you.
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:42 AM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you.
Hi Robert:

So what would you describe about how openly your teacher is showing you how to do these things? I mean it in the sense of "can you give us your take on how openly this sort of skills are (a.) displayed in the martial arts circles you're aware of and (b.) whether it is taught very openly. Obviously you must be aware that almost no westerners in the US, UK, etc., have a clear idea of even what this stuff is, much less how to do it... so my question is sort of along the lines of getting your feeling about whether Aikidoists in the West are being treated any differently than Aikidoists in Japan.

This same sort of power is used in high-level karate, jiu-jitsu, Chinese martial arts, etc., so if you have an insight that gives your impression which *includes* all these martial arts, I'd certainly be interested in hearing your take on it.

I'm frankly sort of amazed at how many "high ranked" martial artists who shrug off these ki skills as "fantasy" or some "mysterious force" not worth talking about. In other words, they're immediately letting it out of the bag that they're missing an important element in real martial arts training. How do you see that aspect?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:04 AM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Har har, we are definitely on the same page then.
There's a guy in Tokyo that Im training under that demontrates the groundpath principal by having 100kg+ people try and break his pinky. Then he floors them with it. Parlor trick, but still pretty cool nonetheless. HIs strikes hurt like... well a mfing train hit and went through you.
Incidentally, I haven't got a clue who Robert is, what he studies, or anything else. But we both were able to spot without any friction or BS that we both understood the same topic. The questions of "terminology", etc., didn't come up.... because when you understand the basic concepts it crosses over the ideas of martial style, etc. This was a point I've tried to make several times.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-20-2005, 07:51 PM   #7
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Robert:

So what would you describe about how openly your teacher is showing you how to do these things?
I'm frankly sort of amazed at how many "high ranked" martial artists who shrug off these ki skills as "fantasy" or some "mysterious force" not worth talking about. In other words, they're immediately letting it out of the bag that they're missing an important element in real martial arts training. How do you see that aspect?
Actually he demonstrates it quite freely.
And doesn't place any restriction on how you want to test him.
I made a thread on bullshido, and a Muay Thai guy wrote an account of the "feelings" he experienced.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=26158&page=10

I was trying to get some more heavy weight people into the class, but so far no one's bit.
Any heavyweight guy that's been through his class gets tossed around, says "HOLY Sh%$" and then doesn't come back. I guess the training methedology is too... "boring" for them or something.

Anyways, he's one of the few I've met that will demonstrate all these "parlor trick" principals in an "alive" (using MMA nutrider terminology) setting, and still floor you.

Paige:
Just cuz your teacher is 3d dan doesnt mean he understands the finer aspects of body mechanics yet.
We had a Shihan from Yoshinkan come to our class w/ 30+ years experience get held down in Kokyuage/sage exercises by one of Akuzawa's (Instructor) first year student (who's not that big either).
He ended up writing a letter to the instructor which basically entailed him saying that "what you and I are doing are completely different, and I dont think I can start my training over at this stage, etc etc".
People need to let go of their pride...
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:24 PM   #8
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Actually he demonstrates it quite freely.
Well that's good. Those that can, do, those that can't... etc. What I'm trying to find out though, if you don't mind me being quizzical, is roughly how much he's really teaching about how to do it. For instance, Tohei and others demonstrated reasonably freely, but they sort of kept how to do it close to the vest. That's the root of the problem, in so many cases, IMO.

Your teacher sounds like a keeper. What's your perspective about him in relation *generally* to what's out there. I mean in terms of both demonstrating and teaching how to do things. Would you, as I suppose, say that it's a rarity to find a teacher as open as yours is?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:30 PM   #9
Upyu
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Wink Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Paige Frazier wrote:
Just cuz my teacher is 3rd dan doesnt mean that he
doesnt understand the finer aspects of body mechanics.

For your information i was just stating his credentials so that people can find out for theirselves whether or not they think he is 'qualified' or whatever u want to call it.

But i promise hes not stupid, and he was trained by Yamada sensei.(Morihei Ushebas grandson, or student if i'm not mistaken) AGAIN EVERYONE thank you for your concern.
And just because he was trained by Morihei Ueshibas grandson doesn't guarantee that he has that kind of "skill". Indeed, there's no guarantee that even Ueshiba's grandson has that skill.

I'm not trying to diss you, just saying that there's always a higher level. And some "high" levels might not be as "high" as you think. Then again, you're still 15, so I'm sorry if I came across a little harsh. You still got plenty of time ahead of you
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:31 PM   #10
Mashu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Hi Robert John,

Do you have any pictures or video of this teacher who can throw these people around with his pinky? Would love to see some.
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:41 PM   #11
senshincenter
 
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Robert,

Does your teacher teach you how to do these things? Does he say, "If you do "x," you can do this." And if so, what is "x." Does he consider "x" outside of Kihon Waza, and/or other things basic to most training programs of contemporary Aikido praxis? Do you think you could answer these questions as you are answering Mike's - please/thanks. I ask, because I feel we would need to know this before we start assuming that a given teacher is withholding information and/or is not in possession of such information for one reason or another. In other words, it seems we would have to cancel out the possibility that a given teacher such as yours does feel that he is teaching you how to these things with "x," such that the discrepancy in transmission and/or in the quality of transmission is connected to something different than the possibility of a teacher withholding information for one reason or another.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:18 PM   #12
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
For instance, Tohei and others demonstrated reasonably freely, but they sort of kept how to do it close to the vest. That's the root of the problem, in so many cases, IMO.

Your teacher sounds like a keeper. What's your perspective about him in relation *generally* to what's out there. I mean in terms of both demonstrating and teaching how to do things. Would you, as I suppose, say that it's a rarity to find a teacher as open as yours is?
Actually he's training the class in exactly those principals and doesn't keep any "secrets" persay. In fact, the class he teaches contains zero techniques, and instead focuses on the "foundation" only. How to stand, body alignment, balance, internal balance, alignment etc. Its pretty unique, and yea he's definitly a rarity since he doesn't keep any "secrets" per say. But even then most people have a hard time keeping up.
Mike, if you're ever in the Tokyo area, definitely look me up I have a feeling you'd hit it off w/ this guy.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:26 PM   #13
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Robert,

Does your teacher teach you how to do these things? Does he say, "If you do "x," you can do this." And if so, what is "x." Does he consider "x" outside of Kihon Waza, and/or other things basic to most training programs of contemporary Aikido praxis?
dmv
Lets put it this way. The way he looks at it, Aikido ( In general, as well as other MAs) focus on training principal through technique rather than the principal itself.
For instance, we train literally how to "stand" properly for at least a good portion of he class. While the exercises are taken from CMA training (namely variations of horse stance), they're shaven down to a much more fundamental level.
We also train what you call Kokyu Age,Sage, but shaven down eve more. Your opponent holds you down and you try and raise your hands w/out technique. That means no turning of the wrists, offing of vectors etc. Your body has to find a way to internally "reverse" the flow of energy back into your opponent.
That's only one example of course.

His training regimine is extremely simple, but hard to explain at the same time.
I'd say that the first tenant that he trains us in is simply learning how to "stand" properly. And learning how to "stack" on top of your bone structure. Becoming aware of up/down, front/back, right/left.
Or in Koryu Terminology Ten/Chi/Jin.
The training of this stuff is extremely tedious, slow, and from outward looks, boring. But internally there's a lot going on and it wears your brain down just as fast as your body
I guess you could say he's training our core only at this point, and no extraneous "techniques".
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:30 PM   #14
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Thanks Robert - that's very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:34 PM   #15
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Matthew Zsebik wrote:
Hi Robert John,

Do you have any pictures or video of this teacher who can throw these people around with his pinky? Would love to see some.
He's always been kinda hesitant, because a) video isn't feeling it, and b) posting that kind or parlor trick doesn't allow you to feel the principal he's trying to demonstrate. (You cant feel the body alignment, the internal power generation, etc etc)

But, he's agreed to post some stuff, and since we're having a seminar in the near future, maybe I'll get a video of him gripping a 6 foot staff w/ his pinky, while he throws two of us on the other end who're trying to push him back That's another one of his favorite tracks =)
W/ the staff its even freakier since all the force is channeled straight back to us in a straight line. Its almost like you end up throwing your self down to the ground...

Last edited by Upyu : 08-20-2005 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:37 PM   #16
rob_liberti
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Are there senior students who have gotten good?
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:37 PM   #17
Mashu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

That would be something to see/feel. I definitely look forward to it.

Thanx,

Matthew
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:42 PM   #18
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
Are there senior students who have gotten good?
Well, like I said in a previous post, there was a Shihan from Yoshinkan that got held down/pushed around by one of the students who only had about a year and 4 months in his class. So yea, I'd say we're getting there. He only opened the class about 2 years ago.
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Old 08-20-2005, 10:19 PM   #19
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I know Ushiro Sensei was doing some workshops on kokyu.... that's a start, but just because someone is showing the external exercises doesn't meant they're teaching what goes on inside. It's not going to be easy. What little I know certainly wasn't easy to obtain.

FWIW

Mike
Man.. why aren't you in Tokyo I'd love to touch hands w/ u.
Akuzawa says the exact same thing. There's plenty of CMA and internal art practicioners in Japan that do "authentic" training, but only mimic the shape, not the "essence" or "inside" movement thats going on.

I realized I didn't answer one of your other questions regarding the gap in training between the east and west.

I'd say its a fair assumption to say that most people in Japan don't get it either. In fact... the level to some degree might be even lower.
I'm talking from personal experience as well as the stories I've heard from Akuzawa.
But, there's still people with skill here and there. Akuzawa's mentor wasn't only Sagawa.
He also trained under some Jie-tai (JSDF) close combat instructor who got his body skill from Bayonette training back in the day, and had that connected "feel". He also loved to street fight and still does to this day, and if I'm not mistaken, sent two marines to the hospital three months ago during some bar brawl.
Anyways, his training w/ this particular guy coupled with Sagawa, and some extremely skilled Yagyu Shingan Ryu guy helped him formulate his training methedology today.

Not to drop another "wow" factor. But he was on TV maybe about 8 years ago, where the topic was "Kyokushin has the strongest punch". They had to reshoot the entire scene, after they made him represent "chinese martial arts", and generated about 485kg of force w/ a punch that had no wind up. (Yea, basically it was fajing, from about 5 cm away). But it gives you an idea of how much power you can generate w/ complete body structure/groundpath principal. (This is 480kg coming from a punch 5cm away from a guy that only weighs 60kg. Plus, this was 8 years ago, I don't even want to think what he can generate now)
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:33 AM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Man.. why aren't you in Tokyo I'd love to touch hands w/ u.
'Cause I'm in Colorado! If you get back to the States, let's get together.
Quote:
...and generated about 485kg of force w/ a punch that had no wind up. (Yea, basically it was fajing, from about 5 cm away). But it gives you an idea of how much power you can generate w/ complete body structure/groundpath principal. (This is 480kg coming from a punch 5cm away from a guy that only weighs 60kg. Plus, this was 8 years ago, I don't even want to think what he can generate now)
Pretty freakin impressive. He's obviously doing some breath-type training, too. Is he teaching any of that? We may have to take this to PM. I love a good nuts-and-bolts discussion.


Mike
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Old 08-21-2005, 01:13 PM   #21
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Mike:
PMd u
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:34 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
But, there's still people with skill here and there. Akuzawa's mentor wasn't only Sagawa.
He also trained under some Jie-tai (JSDF) close combat instructor who got his body skill from Bayonette training back in the day, and had that connected "feel". He also loved to street fight and still does to this day, and if I'm not mistaken, sent two marines to the hospital three months ago during some bar brawl.
Anyways, his training w/ this particular guy coupled with Sagawa, and some extremely skilled Yagyu Shingan Ryu guy helped him formulate his training methedology today.
Hi Rob:

Well, after the offline chat, I'm convinced that you're getting some pretty dynamite information. I'm assuming the Sagawa you're referring to is Yukiyoshi (spelling?) Sagawa from Daito Ryu. If that's true it would be very interesting if you could ask your teacher a question. There has been some interest in where exactly Ueshiba got his internal strength knowledge. Would it be possible for you to ask your teacher about the kokyu, breathing, power exercises, etc., in Daito Ryu and what his opinion is about where Ueshiba got the body-conditioning training? There's some speculation that Ueshiba may have learned some of his stuff at the Omoto-Kyo organization. Any perspectives from your teacher would be interesting. The blunter the better.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-23-2005, 01:20 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=242

Best,

Ron

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Old 08-23-2005, 02:11 PM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Thanks, Ron. I notice that the speaker is using the term "aiki" in the manner that I suggested in some previous posts must be the "highest level". I didn't realize that article was there, since I haven't researched anything about Daito Ryu. Very interesting.

"Aiki" as the "skill of depriving the opponent of all his power at the instant of contact" is indeed an example of things going "according to the natural laws of the universe", which is the basis for all this "harmony" talk and which is so often misinterpretted. A "Tao" or "Do" seeks ideally for a complete blending and actualization with the natural laws of the universe.

It sounds like Sagawa's skill, and that of his student, is very high. Although of course it is always difficult to tell from an admiring article.

Best,

Mike
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Old 08-23-2005, 04:56 PM   #25
Upyu
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Re: Where Does The Power come from?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Rob:
There has been some interest in where exactly Ueshiba got his internal strength knowledge. Would it be possible for you to ask your teacher about the kokyu, breathing, power exercises, etc., in Daito Ryu and what his opinion is about where Ueshiba got the body-conditioning training?
Sup all,

Actually I remember asking him this question at some point, and if I remember correctly Sagawa wasn't big on "teaching". Sagawa did say that the "gokui" or secret to Aiki was in the "Aiki age", I believe you guys call it Kokyu dosa? (The seated exercise).

He also placed a huge emphasis on "Shiko", the sumo exercise where they raise one leg up slowly and bring it down.

http://www.sumofr.net/photos/Shik1.jpg

I can say from personal experience that doing Shiko for over a year brings tangible results in opening the pelvic area, connecting the body, and developing "Ten"/"Chi" or Up/Down, and left/right, as well as separating the left/right axis, bringing your intent to the center axis (or the line that runs from your crown to perienium)

Supposedly Sagawa himself spent over a couple years studying at a Sumo stable and experimenting with their methods.

As for actual breathing exercises @ Sagawa's, I was under the impression that
a) they weren't really taught, and
b) (And don't take this the wrong way, this is common in all MAs I think lol) Sagawa said in not so many words that Ueshibas comprehension of Aiki in Daitoryu was sux00r.
But then again you know how those cranky old guys get, they always think they're good, but everyone around them sucks, so I wouldn't take what he purportedly said to heart.
As far as my impression goes, the heart of understanding "Aiki" for Sagawa lay in the Aiki age exercises, which they'd do continuously for over an hour.

We do a version of it sans any technique. Which means no offing of vectors, turning of wrists, etc. Eventually your body finds a means to hold your "structure" and send the persons force straight back into them. It's extremely frustrating at first, but like anything practice produces results.

Akuzawa can get a wrist lock on someone simply by "tapping" their wrist. The pain that shoots down your body is... um words can't describe it, and its not something you can counter since he's "locking" your center, not your wrist.
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