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Old 08-31-2006, 10:57 AM   #26
aikidoc
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

George Ledyard had an interesting article talking about resistive uke's. He made some good points:
1. A lot of aikidoka are all beat up later in their careers due to taking improper ukemi and absorbing the brunt of the force.
2. Uke cannot find the kaeshi waza opportunities if they are fighting the technique.

I would also add that being shown the technique makes it easy to stop someone. If that is the way the person trains, then you both just stand there staring at each other. Switch rolls and stare at each other again. No one gets to practice anything. As the practice becomes more skilled then the attacks can be more challenging making nage work out the bugs.
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Old 08-31-2006, 11:00 AM   #27
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

I personally like training with ukes like this. It's very...different. If you get too comfy and sheltered doing a previously easy technique on someone and all the sudden this technique fails on the resistant uke, then it really opens up your eyes. Not to mention you can work on alternatives.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:08 PM   #28
mjchip
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
I personally like training with ukes like this. It's very...different. If you get too comfy and sheltered doing a previously easy technique on someone and all the sudden this technique fails on the resistant uke, then it really opens up your eyes. Not to mention you can work on alternatives.
Well, there is a time and place for this sort of practice and IMO, it's not during basic forms training.

In addition, I believe that people shouldn't start working with heavy resistance until shodan or so (once they have both sides of the forms internalized and have a good sense of where their bodies should be and what constitutes proper resistance without creating additional suki).

My $0.02

Mark
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:27 PM   #29
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
Hope you learned something of value from the whole exchange; whenever it happens to me I am reminded of how much more work on self control I have yet to do.
That was the reason I pulled the plug at that point. I was feeling the adrenaline rise and on the verge of getting seriously pissed off. In retrospect, it does seem a little silly to have let such a short episode with an arrogant know-it-all effect me so.

In fact, this type of thing is one of the main motivators for my coming back to Aikido. I found myself at a relatively quiet folk show asking some rude asshole in front of me to be quiet, for the second time... so pointedly. Most of the time, people just shut up, but this time the guy got in my face and called me a 'dick' or something. It launched me into serious thoughts of destroying the guy, like smashing my heavy cocktail glass into his skull or doing Muay Thai kinda stuff to him. It made me realize I needed to get back to martial arts to work on the my temper and conflict confidence.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:40 PM   #30
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Well, there is a time and place for this sort of practice and IMO, it's not during basic forms training.
I'd agree, but these type of encounters only happen about once every 30 classes, so it's not that big of a deal to me. Not like we train with resistance every single day. No progress would be made!

Besides, I don't choose it. If someone believes my shihonage isn't effective enough and tries to struggle against it, I just go down on one knee and do a torque movment and they go down in pain anyway. Maybe not the most aiki smooth but...

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-31-2006 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:59 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
It made me realize I needed to get back to martial arts to work on the my temper and conflict confidence.
The other night I did a stupid with an obnoxious driver...my comment to myself was "bring it on, I'm not in the mood and I'll finish you..." -- not the proper frame of mind at all. For all I knew, he could have had a gun. It didn't come to anything thankfully...but as a barometer, it let me know my own control wasn't where it should be.

Good on you for recognizing where you were.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:59 PM   #32
Don_Modesto
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The other day we were doing a knife takeaway and I had a partner who seriously resisted my doing the technique....all the smart-ass stuff he was doing to demonstrate how badly I was doing the technique was a violation of the parameters of the training scenario.
I had a guy doing this with KUMIIAI once. The defense consisted of entering on the attacker's upswing. He was being too clever by half, beginning with his BOKKEN in JODAN. I, not being able to do the technique, simple thrust into his belly. His insolence frustrated, we left, muttering.

Good riddance.
Quote:
This was just ordinary practice and I was trying to work out the technique - not reality testing. All of his gotcha nonsense was predicated on the assumption that I would not use atemi - punch him in the face, snap his knee or instep, etc... As a higher ranking sensei here has often said, without atemi, any technique is resistable.
Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
violation of the parameters of the training scenario.
Actually, while partners like you suffered irritate me, too, they are also useful.

Some people dismiss kata entirely (Bruce Lee?) But if you always have tenacious resistance, you cannot develop clean technique. At some point, you HAVE to do kata, you have to GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS.

OTOH, I personally think we may do too much of this in aikido. I think aikido defenses against weapons are very misleading to practitioners and we ought to be getting stabbed by those wooden knives a lot more than we do in order to convey how dicey and unlikely disarming someone really is to folks with us for self-defense rather than philosophy. An argument could be made for making all aikido practice a lot messier.

So in the original conflict, I think both parties had arguments. Kevin, for kata, the "asshole" for realism (not doubting for a moment Kevin's contention that the partner was all about ego--I've run into too many like this to doubt it.)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I know you are trying to work a single technique, but my advice is to just change the technique. Make it work by just changing to something he is not resisting. Blend with him. It will make you better.
I agree and do this.

Unfortunately, you may run into the teacher's ego here. I've had more than one come by and chide me for doing something different than he had divinely dispensated to the class. Geez, at some point, the rubber's gotta hit the road. With TAKEMUSU AIKI the ideal, we can realistically ask if it's not explicitly prohibited in most teachers' classes.

TOPIC FOR ANOTHER THREAD: When is HENKA WAZA hunky-dori?

( http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/newthr...=newthread&f=1 )

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
This is why I avoid giving advice even to lower-ranking people then me. Even with the best of intents, you can still be seen as an asshole by some.
Yes. Me, too. I wait until I'm asked.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-31-2006, 01:33 PM   #33
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Actually, the point about the fantastical nature of such weapons takeaways made me think what he was doing even more absurd. Of course I'm not going to be able to do shihonage on some guy trying to slash me with a huge bowie knife - especially not while I'm doing it in slow motion and he is free to move at full speed. To me, the weapons takeaways in Aikido are over 90% fantasy. I guess if you found yourself in that proximity to someone trying to stab you or slash you with a sword, you'd have to give it a try, but if it comes to that, it's probably your time to go down. If we were talking realism training and that guy pulled out a knife that big with nefarious intent, I'd run to the other side of the room and grab a bokken off the wall. If I was the only one in danger, I'd probably skip the bokken and go right out the front door. I see the weapons vs. open hand training as a type of exercise that changes the parameters and focus of what you are doing somewhat, and not much else.

As far as all the stuff revolving around the idea of giving the guy what for, it sounds satisfying, but this isn't the kind of dojo where I could break this guy's nose or send him to a physical therapist without it being a major incident. As far as doing it more subtly, with pure Aikido skill, I am just coming back from about 3 years away, so I don't see that happening anytime soon. Also, the way I interpreted the guy's attitude, anything I did in that vein was just going to lead to escalating one-upsmanship - an arms race that would eventually go nuclear.
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Old 08-31-2006, 01:36 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

I know what you mean about the arms race. If you start one, you certainly don't want to lose. I guess it's a very fine point of control to be able to make the point without breaking the nose. Apparently my seniors think I have that much control. Sometimes I really wonder about that, though...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-31-2006, 01:37 PM   #35
ChrisMoses
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

This can be really frustrating. I remember many times doing waza that I considered to be more learning tools (undo) rather than effective waza and having a partner decide to point out all of the openings. You get left with the decision to do something besides what you're supposed to be working on or have your partner think they're getting the best of you (not to mention getting really frustrated). This also goes back to my assertion that the rules aren't clearly defined enough in Aikido practice. Is it kata? Is it oyowaza? Is it randori? Too often nage is stuck within the confines of a kind of kata (they're supposed to be working on a specific version of a technique after all) but uke is acting more in line with oyowaza or randori. That's not a fair training relationship. Often a particular technique presupposes a specific attack and straying from that attack can change the scenario enough to make the intended study impossible. Of course one *should* have enough control over uke that this isn't a problem, but if we were all that good, we'd be the one calling the techniques.

It sounds like you're also bumping up against the 'shiho nage problem'. The technique (the way most people do it) has a very limited range of people that it works on. We've all had newbies spin and twist out of a gentle shihonage. But by the time you have good enough ukemi to have somebody really throw you, you should know how to block it six ways from Sunday. It's really one of the easiest techniques to nullify, so it works best as a teaching tool, and that requires a certain ammount of cooperation from ones partner.

My big beef is when the tables are turned and as uke I'm trying to offer a learning experience for nage so that they can find the right movements, and rather than reexamine their waza, they just punch you. Great, thanks. Atemi is not a get out of jail free card.
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Old 08-31-2006, 01:44 PM   #36
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Great, thanks. Atemi is not a get out of jail free card.

Agreed...it often gets used to cover up a lot of bad technique. That's why I almost always only go to it when the *instructor* points to it as the solution. Not just on a whim with any resistant uke.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-31-2006, 02:09 PM   #37
ChrisMoses
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:

Agreed...it often gets used to cover up a lot of bad technique. That's why I almost always only go to it when the *instructor* points to it as the solution. Not just on a whim with any resistant uke.

Best,
Ron
Didn't mean to be implying you were. Certainly there are times when uke can act in such a non-martial way that they are able to block your waza but only by positioning themselves in paces that are martially useless. I've pointed this out with atemi myself when whoever I was working with just wasn't paying attention to the whole of the interraction.
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Old 08-31-2006, 02:42 PM   #38
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

You've got it, Christian. The more I think about this though, the more I think I just let the guy take me off my center and priorities, metaphorically speaking. Right now, my main goal in Aikido is to just participate regularly without injury and get my body used to things again. After that, my main interest is mostly taking ukemi. If I could, I'd just take ukemi most of the time and not bother with techiniques, frankly. I just like it on a sensual, visceral level and I also aspire to the kind of silent smoothness that the woman who taught me Waite-style has. In the larger scheme, I really have no ego tied up in my throwing abilities at this point, so the guy shouldn't have rattled me. The problem is that I'm a very independent person and I often react in an irrational and extreme way when I perceive that someone is trying to take advantage of me, losing sight of my goals.
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Old 08-31-2006, 03:40 PM   #39
odudog
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

The 4 ways to cure this problem are the following: 1) ask him politely not to resist so that you can practice and for him not to get hurt 2) if that doesn't work, drop to your knees while doing shihonage, he should get the message them hopefully 3) if #2 doesn't work, then change to another technique that is even more painful or make another soft technique become painful 4) if he still doesn't get the message then just avoid him and leave him in his arrogant and destructive ways.

One of my old instructors was practicing at his new dojo in RI with a new student. The new student ripped up my old instructor's elbow doing shihonage improperly. It has a been about 1 1/2 yrs now and my old instructor still isn't able to get on the mat due to this injury.
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:10 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
To me, the weapons takeaways in Aikido are over 90% fantasy.
We agree.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
....the rules aren't clearly defined enough in Aikido practice. Is it kata? Is it oyowaza? Is it randori? Too often nage is stuck within the confines of a kind of kata (they're supposed to be working on a specific version of a technique after all) but uke is acting more in line with oyowaza or randori. That's not a fair training relationship.
Well said.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:26 PM   #41
Qatana
 
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

OK so I've both dealt wth the jerk and been accused of being the resistor.

scenario !, I have mentioned before. I was visiting a dojo, the instructor gave a technique and very clearly said uke may CHOOSE to breakfall or roll. I told my partner to please throw me into rolls. He proceeded to throw me into higher and harder breakfalls, all the while, when I was nage, lecturing me on how I was not caring for him properly. This person was wearing a white belt, so WHY was he lecturing somebody senior in rank to him in the first place?A Guest?

In my own dojo I am being accused of being a bad uke because several of my (bigger, stronger and trained in other arts) kohai are having trouble making me fall. Now I am 5'3", I weigh around 105# and i'm 50n years old. I also have thirty years dance experience and superlative balance and flexibility, especially for a person my age.Not to mention several years of tango training, which is All About Following. So I'm sincerely TRYING to follow their technique but they don't seem to be able to adapt their technoique to me, and I get blamed. When I ask Sensei he says to "lead my nage' which I can do to some extent with a beginner but not with a fourth kyu who has 50-100 pounds on me. Am I a jerk?
I actually walked out of an iriminage when Sensei was demonstrating with me. He didn't chastise or accuse me, he simply changed the technique to yonkyo and believe me, I have no clue how I ended up on the mat!

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:50 PM   #42
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

In my opinion there is not such concept as ‘jerk' in aikido practice. Why should everybody be nice and follow the same drill as a uke? Of course one (as instructor or as more advanced aikidoka) can punish uke for not politically correct behavior, and uniform the way of attacking or receiving techniques.

However, it is not natural at all (as in Nature there very many differences) and leads to form very distinguish style of practice. What is worse, that this situation is the biggest obstacle to unify all aikidoka to practice together. And we hardly can see students of ***** sensei when other sensei instruct class or seminar.

Techniques from one aikido style are not working at all in other style. And ppl are so frustrated by their powerless, that they prefer not to come to practice to other style. And they close themselves in their own style progressively believing that only their way of doing ukemi is THE best. And all this starts from drilling uke, as Pavlov's dogs.

I have completely different idea -- if techniques doesn't work, it is ALWAYS fault of nage. And when attacker is attacking, we are here not to value his behavior, but to deal physically with attack in aikido way. And role of instructor is to show effective way to do it, instead of punishing uke.
When students get use to such situation, they are free to practice in any style, because extreme difficulty of executing techniques is a daily, natural and the most desired situation. They understand that under such conditions they can learn in most efficient way Real Aikido LOL. Why O sensei chose the martial techniques as a tool to spiritual transformation? Just because only such techniques can create right environment -- with one condition: uke is not drilled as Pavlov's dog.

Nagababa

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Old 08-31-2006, 09:38 PM   #43
Nick P.
 
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
-- if techniques doesn't work, it is ALWAYS fault of nage. And when attacker is attacking, we are here not to value his behavior, but to deal physically with attack in aikido way.
I agree.

However the original post was asking was how to deal with a jerk of a partner (talking, teaching, showing-off, etc).
If a person with one month of training is practicing with someone with one decade of training, and the senior is the jerk, how do they deal with it? I think they should just keep trying. The same applies if the reverse is also the case.

But perhaps the best answers lie here
http://www.aikiweb.com/general/founder.html
and this is one of my favorites
"I do not think badly of others when they treat me unkindly. Rather, I feel gratitude towards them for giving me the opportunity to train myself to handle adversity." O-Sensei

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Old 08-31-2006, 09:46 PM   #44
dps
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The other day we were doing a knife takeaway and I had a partner who seriously resisted my doing the technique. I noticed when he was doing the technique, he was so tense and jerky that he actually hit himself in the head a couple of times..
I think at this point I would politely and respectfully thank him for his help tell him you are not going to practice with him for fear of him hurting himself. Then tell sensei about it.


I think Uke is the mirror of Nage/Tori's ability to do technique.

Last edited by dps : 08-31-2006 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:46 PM   #45
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Yeah, if it's the senior that's the jerk, the junior is pretty much f**ked -- and I think we all know seniors like that :lol: (takes a quick walk down own memory lane...)

On the other hand, there's always the case where the "junior" takes down the senior with his other MA knowledge. I've had juniors who did judo or wrestling and were just much better than I was at the time. Not to mention the really big guys that sometimes step onto the mat.... I've seen a nondescript junior passively take a lot of shit from a talkative senior, and then kick him in the head with an axe kick while still standing in the usual face to face position. I'm sure we other seniors should have really made him pay for that, but we were too busy rolling on the mat laughing our a**es off, with phrases like "stupid must pay" going around....
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Old 08-31-2006, 11:13 PM   #46
dps
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Better yet, humbly go to sensei and tell him that your technique works on every uke except one and could sensei please show how to do it on this particular individual. If you are having a difficult time understanding and need to understand all aspects of the technique, you may have to ask sensei to demonstrate over and over and over again.
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Old 09-01-2006, 05:11 AM   #47
ruthmc
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Hmm, if the technique was shihonage, I'd have dropped an old school shiho on him and made him squeak

One hand twists his hand outwards and downwards (hold his fingers for extra ouch points), your other (slightly bent) arm braces underneath his elbow and extends upwards and towards his outstretched hand at the same time. This will get him hopping on hs toes and unable to think beyond the pain burning through his brain

No speed required, simply co-ordination

And no, I don't normally do shihonage like this as most folk prefer to have full use of their arm at work the next day

Ruth
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:12 AM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Techniques from one aikido style are not working at all in other style. And ppl are so frustrated by their powerless, that they prefer not to come to practice to other style. And they close themselves in their own style progressively believing that only their way of doing ukemi is THE best. And all this starts from drilling uke, as Pavlov's dogs.
There is some truth to this statement, and that must be acknowledged to move forward from such a bad position.

BUT...this is not always the case. Increasingly, groups and individuals, led by free thinking and innovative instructors, are stepping outside of the 'normal restrictive patterns', and learning from each other. Some of the relationships that have made this possible were formed at the Aiki Expos and other cross dojo events. Some of these relationships have been made possible because individuals took the time to go to other dojo, behave properly, and learn.

In my experience in the joint seminars given by Ikeda and Utada Sensei, there are some waza that one group does that does not have a great affect on members from another school *at first*. But when the instructors call up uke from the other school, the waza does in fact *work*. And the longer we train, the more they work for the students, as we improve. I'm sure a case can be made that some students often tank for an instructor (esp. one not their own) to be polite. I guess the only thing one could do about that is to take the ukemi for themselves.

In my personal trips to other schools, I have not found that the waza I was taught did not work, and I have found that others could certainly make their waza work on me. Sometimes there were rough patches, sometimes there were problems...but I've always been able to sort such things out. If I can do that, I know others can too, because my skills are pretty mediocre.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:19 AM   #49
actoman
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

I know what you mean dude. We recently had a new family come into the dojo. Good people, honestly, but here is the problem: He is a non-dan, white-belt rank, truly a very beginner, less than 3 week along. While he seems to be doing well, his ettiquette in the dojo is appauling. We were training in Gokyo the other day, both tenkan and from Munetski, and he was trying to teach the instructor! While he looked offended, he poised and took a breath and moved on. I think he is going to get wailed on one day if he does'nt realize. Then he went on to give this ridiculous tale of how he used what he'd learned already to subdue a drunk guy 'instinctively' at a store. My only thought was 'gimme a break'
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:26 AM   #50
Eric Webber
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Re: Dealing with a jerk...

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Anyway, I'm curious as to how others would deal with such a fellow at their dojo - both what they would do, and what is considered proper at their school. I think I know what the senseis at this school will say, but I'll be checking with them next time I get the chance anyway.
In my home dojo, which is small and intimate, I would change technique and put a particularly ugly joint lock on, capture his or her attention with some discomfort, then whisper in my partner's ear, "Let's stick with the prescribed technique so no one gets hurt by accident." In other cases, in other dojos or seminars, I would take a more mature and tactful approach .
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