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Old 08-30-2006, 12:40 PM   #176
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Along with Mike's point, I thought Fa Jin was issued force, Jin is just force...

Best,
Ron (I could be entirely wrong about that...but I've been meaning to post that for about half a day now...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:44 PM   #177
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
WITH that organization in place, you can then issue power smoothly. But issuing power is issuing "power". It's not "issuing kokyu.
Ok, what then is "kokyu ryoku"? Or is the entire yoshinkan (and some other styles) talking out of it's hat when it refers to kokyu ryoku (breath power)?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:42 PM   #178
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Along with Mike's point, I thought Fa Jin was issued force, Jin is just force...
That's how I understand it, too. But Mike specifically referred to the e-mail description of a sensei's "using" kokyu and interpreted it as an "issued" force.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:48 PM   #179
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ok, what then is "kokyu ryoku"? Or is the entire yoshinkan (and some other styles) talking out of it's hat when it refers to kokyu ryoku (breath power)?
I would never say that the yoshinkan is talking out of its hat on anything related to aiki.

However, as I've understood it, you can have kokyu with no movement. You can issue force without kokyu. But you can issue force better, more smoothly and more effectively when your mind and body are united through the breath with kokyu than you could with a "disorganized" or "otherwise organized" mind/body.

In any case, I've never felt the kind of effects from a Japanese expert in any art that I've felt from experts in Chinese arts. There is a different quality of a whole different character, not unlike the difference between sake and cabernet, in wines. Not that one is better than the other. Both are made in similar fashion, but they are made differently and they are not the same.

But it is an interesting and important point you have made.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:56 PM   #180
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
As stated above, kokyu is using the breath as a medium to bring the mind and body into unison for the purpose of taking action. It is a high degree of internal organization. WITH that organization in place, you can then issue power smoothly. But issuing power is issuing "power". It's not "issuing kokyu."

For instance, you can strike "intelligently," but it is not the "intelligence" itself that strikes them. And you can strike with "determination" but it is not the determination itself that hits them. And so on. You can hit someone "with" kokyu, but it is not the "kokyu" that hits them any more than it is the "good posture" that hits them. Is that clearer?
I hate to be nit picky but I do not believe this is a detailed enough description to counter arguments by Mike S and others. I have seen many a definition of Kokyu that relates the ebb and flow of life force (in the respiration sense not mystical). This in turn means that kokyu is the movement of life force. So, you disagree that kokyu is a means of conveyance?

Also you said "And you can strike with "determination" but it is not the determination itself that hits them." I can counter by saying one can strike with intention and that intention can be tangibly felt by an opponent before the strike ever lands.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Exactly. The natural nervous system has gotten the majority of people from infancy to old age and through a full life without any training.
I desagree. Everything from the point of actualization in the womb is an imprint as far as CNS/PNS functions go. Whether the imprint enhances or degrades ones neurophysiology is the question. Locomotion to speaking and eating requires imprints.


Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The environmental imprints are caused by social stress. If one fails to adjust properly to social stress, those imprints lead to bad health, etc. And Mike's concocted exercises, based on the idea that he "generates" ki from his fascia or wherever else, are a type of that environmental imprint. Feldenkrais' method showed that we can access a level of CNS function at which the CNS will "reset" itself and drop those environmental imprints which hamper our natural impulses and distort our posture, resulting in inhibited action.
Again, you are not dropping environmental imprints you are just replacing them with another imprint. A true example of dropping an environmental imprint is someone that has had some sort of trauma that affects CNS functioning. Say, head trauma, where the patient has to relearn to walk, speak and eat. That is someone dropping an imprint.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
By "resetting" the CNS to its natural state, we can act spontaneously, freely, creatively and powerfully to the demands of the moment. The environmental imprints you mention amount to "habitual" forms of behavior, which, ultimately amount to static electric patterns in the brain which do not respond to the reality of the moment but continually reproduce static behaviors regardless of whether they are appropriate responses or not.

Thanks.

David
The brain responds to perception which is gathered by evaluated by CNS/PNS functions. To the brain this perception is reality. Functions such as rationalization can override perception but not always. There are some interesting case studies involving the brain literally slowing time in order to process information. That is a function not an imprint and you cannot live on function without imprint unless you want to be a vegetable.... Gotta stop now. This is definitely thread drift.

Best,
Tim Anderson
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:58 PM   #181
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Thanks for the answer.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:08 PM   #182
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Eric Lingswiler wrote:
I did not congratulate David Orange for personal attacks, only that he laid his thoughts out which concern the thread. If you are going to quote me I'd at least like you to be accurate, I'd like to read more about the thread and avoid these types of diversions so I'll restrict further comments of a personal nature and attempt to learn at least a little from those possessing some knowledge.
I didn't "quote" you. I opined about what you wrote. CArry on.


Justin

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Old 08-30-2006, 03:11 PM   #183
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm always open to someone showing me I'm wrong (heck, I *beg* for it), but considering the accumulation of data from your postings, I'd bet my house on the fact that you don't really know what we're talking about.
You know, the term peng jin is not mentioned in the taijiquan classics, Ueshiba, Kano, and other founders do not make the jin/kokyu connection, and many taijiquan practicioners have said other things besides peng jin are the foundation of taijiquan.

So we have that accumulation of data too.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:12 PM   #184
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Cite? Who translated? Etc.
You're asking me to cite a book when you don't cite the book that you claim says that qi is best translated as ground strength?

Moving on..

Spirit of Aikido is a cite. Google it to get info on it. And read through Kiss. Ueshiba's discussion on ki if you'd like.


Justin

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Old 08-30-2006, 03:36 PM   #185
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

If anyone wants my opinion on this topic, please start a thread on AJ. I'm pretty much tired of the prolonged stalking by this moron "Justin Smith" and the way it keeps breaking the train of the thread.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:48 PM   #186
Adman
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Given what Mike wrote in post #173, which appears to me to be a pretty clear explanation on his stance on how he uses "ki", I'm not sure what all the side debates are trying to accomplish. But like Ron has said, at least some useful nuggets are leaking out.

Back to push-hands. Never practiced it. What I've seen looks pretty neat. It seems kokyu-dosa (or kokyu-ho) has some similar elements. However, I think the "body-skill" training, such as Rob John has outlined, and what Mike and others talk about, goes a long way in helping us learn our own "push-hands" in aikido. Provided of course, you've done enough of the prep work.

Side note: I've been incorporating what I've learned (or have hoped to) from these discussions and what I have been taught in my regular training. It seems things are meshing quite well and I've had a few moments when I thought, "... oh that's what sensei meant!" I've also become a lot harder to move in kokyu-dosa, while not resisting. Apparently, I've gotten better at maintaining. So, thanks for the interesting discussions, I've been learning a lot. Keep it coming!

thanks,
Adam
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:52 PM   #187
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
I hate to be nit picky but I do not believe this is a detailed enough description to counter arguments by Mike S and others. I have seen many a definition of Kokyu that relates the ebb and flow of life force (in the respiration sense not mystical). This in turn means that kokyu is the movement of life force. So, you disagree that kokyu is a means of conveyance?
A means of organization. And its use, as far as movement is concerned, is far more often for things like walking, standing, sitting, gardening etc. than it is for fighting. How much of your life have you ever spent fighting another person? And how much have you spent walking, standing, sitting, etc.?

The purpose of kokyu is primarily to unite your mind and body and make you more efficient in ordinary life. If you are a paranoid, uptight, wacko crank in ordinary life, do you suppose you can suddenly become a smooth, effortless and tadashiku fighter? You might be very skilled but you'll still be basically whatever you are in ordinary life.

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
...one can strike with intention and that intention can be tangibly felt by an opponent before the strike ever lands.
Exactly. THAT is kiai and you can interact with the opponent through that medium. And the opponent can sense your intent and move in time with your movement to the weak spot (ura) of your kiai movement (your omote). So you and I are now very close.

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
I desagree. Everything from the point of actualization in the womb is an imprint as far as CNS/PNS functions go. Whether the imprint enhances or degrades ones neurophysiology is the question. Locomotion to speaking and eating requires imprints.
Well, when I say your nervous system will "reset," I don't mean that it wipes your mind completely clean of all previous learning: it wipes the static electrical pattern of habitual behavior and tonus from your brain and body. It sets you back to "optimal tonus," which is what a toddler has if he has not been unduly traumatized and shocked into a lasting state of maladjusted tonus.

And from optimal tonus, which Feldenkrais called "the neutral position" and which I call "Zero Stance," you are ready and able to act spontaneously to the demands of the moment, very creatively instead of habitually.

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
The brain responds to perception which is gathered by evaluated by CNS/PNS functions. To the brain this perception is reality. Functions such as rationalization can override perception but not always. There are some interesting case studies involving the brain literally slowing time in order to process information. That is a function not an imprint and you cannot live on function without imprint unless you want to be a vegetable....
But you can drop static habitual patterns and work from optimal tonus. And that, I believe, is the real goal of tai chi. And I believe that tai chi and bagua are BETTER at helping us to reach that state than aikido or any of the other Japanese arts, though I think you can do it with aikido, too, once you get past the imitative stage and learn to think, feel and move for yourself.

Good evening.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 03:54 PM   #188
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Justin, you are simply not worth the effort!
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:02 PM   #189
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If anyone wants my opinion on this topic, please start a thread on AJ. I'm pretty much tired of the prolonged stalking by this moron "Justin Smith" and the way it keeps breaking the train of the thread.

Mike Sigman
Mike, that sounded like name calling. And regardless of what Justin has said, I've never seen him call you a name. He has been persistent, but he has been consistent and I don't think I've ever seen him post anything harsh.

So why call him a name?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:21 PM   #190
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Why don't we just ignore Justin Smith and keep on going?


R
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:30 PM   #191
shodan 83
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike, that sounded like name calling. And regardless of what Justin has said, I've never seen him call you a name. He has been persistent, but he has been consistent and I don't think I've ever seen him post anything harsh.

So why call him a name?

David
Because unlike you, he brings nothing to the table. He feast on that which is provided by others and offers absolutely nothing in return. I do not agree with all your post, but you are thoughtful enough to bring something of value forward. Don't defend this person just because he lurks in Mike's shadow and then springs forth with juvenile comments.

Sincerely, E
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:37 PM   #192
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Raul, that's a good point. As for misinformation, all I can say is that the Japanese have established what kokyu is for a long time and that ki is also a well understood idea. And Mike's usage of the terms is not consistent with those things. I guess I say disinformation because I think Mike does know that he is misusing the terms. He wants to redefine them. He says this is because he understands "subtle shades" of meaning behind the Japanese terms that other people don't grasp. And I say he is wrong to appropriate those terms for his own agenda, whatever the heck that is.

But I will leave it with "misinformation."

Thanks.

David

You can't have it both ways. You accept "misinformation" and then say that Mike does know that he is wrong and has his own agenda.
My trouble is that it seems you are reacting so strongly because you have a quasi-religious definition of ki/kokyu (a bit Jedi-Knightish, if you'll forgive me for saying so) and Mike's mechanistic, empirical approach makes a more cosmic approach to ki/kokyu irrelevant/unnecessary. If a biomechanical approach can produce ki/kokyu in the standard tests we know (the jo trick, the push trick, or the one inch punch), then there need be no appeal to higher powers to make it work. Its like having a mechanistic explanation for the movement of the planets or for the evolution of species. God/Amaterasu/Allah get written out of the picture. Is this a fair restatement of the argument thus far?


R
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:38 PM   #193
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
If anyone wants my opinion on this topic, please start a thread on AJ. I'm pretty much tired of the prolonged stalking by this moron "Justin Smith" and the way it keeps breaking the train of the thread.
You asked me about the book, I told you. Please, don't play the 'he's stalking me' routine after you directly ask me a question and I respond to you.

It tends not to be a credible complaint.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:56 PM   #194
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Eric Lingswiler wrote:
Because unlike you, he brings nothing to the table. He feast on that which is provided by others and offers absolutely nothing in return. I do not agree with all your post, but you are thoughtful enough to bring something of value forward. Don't defend this person just because he lurks in Mike's shadow and then springs forth with juvenile comments.

Sincerely, E
Eric, your opinions are noted, but it is noted that they are just opinions. If you consider asking people for evidence for their many claims as "juvenile" and "absolutely nothing", you are certainly entitled to your belief. I personally consider claims that are unsupported to be "junenile" and "absolutely nothing".

Where's actual evidence of the "most westerners..." oft-repeated claim? It is arguable that it is bordering on racist, and it is certainly a vague argument by geography (what constitutes "west"?).

I've also made the point that people who talk about different/unusual/etc/ kinds of strength might just really just waxing poetic about "normal strength", and what they do might also really just be "normal strength". I don't consider that "asbolutely nothing", but a rational way to explain the "unusual" force that people say is different from normal strength but yet they want to talk about it using physics vectors.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:21 PM   #195
kelvinyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Is it likely that Mike and David Orange are talking past each other due to different definitions and understanding of "ki" / "kokyu" etc ?

Here's my humble contribution.

I've had some experience (albeit limited) with Japanese style martial arts, including ki-Aikido. What strikes me about them is the unusual emphasis placed on the mind. There are key concepts like "miai", "zanshin", "mushin", "fudoshin" etc which are found in Karate, Judo and Aikido.

In some the most celebrated classics like "Go Rin No Sho", "The Unfettered Mind" and "The Life Giving Sword", the primary emphasis on the use of a clear, uncluttered mind is obvious.

Perhaps Aikido, being heavily influenced by sword, weapon arts and daito-ryu, has a similiar emphasis ?

Thus the explanation of "ki" in Aikido is primarily through the paradigm of how the mind and body can be integrated (the Aikido version of total body integration), and how the "intents" of the opponent and self can be sensed, merged etc.

There are many references to the highest state of mental development, such as "haragei".

But Mike is talking about something very different in my opinion. I've also trained in bagua and taiji for some time now, and I understand his opinions on the concept of "ground path".

The Chinese IMA tend to look at "qi"/"jin" a little differently. They are really "body arts" or "身法". Their way of understanding "qi" is though the paradigm of training method to use the body differently, to move, attack and generate power.

There is breathe, standing and all sorts of stuff, but basically, the end result is to built greater power. To us, "qi" CAN indeed be stored, can be increased. (I.e the more you do these basic exercises, the more power your body can generate).

Is is possible that while the Japanese and Chinese CHARACTERS for "ki"/qi" is essentially the same (气), there are fundamental differences in the way they are interpreted in both martial cultures ?

If you adopt this perspective, then it becomes possible to reconcile both points of views:

- I.e. Aikido's definition of "ki" (David) follows from the use of the mind and intent to merge with an opponent's incoming force. From this perspective, yes, nothing is being "issued".

- The development of "qi" (Mike), "body art" power, is a useful adjunct to an Aikido practionner. Body power can be increased, can be "issued" as "fa-jin".

- So, while an Aikido man may be able to avoid/evade/merge an attack successfully, he may not be able to consistently increase high levels of "body power", unless trained correctly as pointed out by Mike.



Just my 2 cents.






From this perspective.
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:30 AM   #196
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Eric Lingswiler wrote:
Because unlike you, he brings nothing to the table. ...I do not agree with all your post, but you are thoughtful enough to bring something of value forward. Don't defend this person just because he lurks in Mike's shadow and then springs forth with juvenile comments.
Well, I appreciate your comments there. I know not everyone likes what I say or how I say it. It causes me trouble sometimes.

On the other hand, I think Mike has that problem, too, and Justin is part of that. I have people who sometimes follow me around because they like to snip at little points I make. Maybe I should ignore them, but I tend to snip right back. I don't PM the administrators or call anyone for help. I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about the discussion and the participants' methods. And I think Mike needs to work it out with Justin, whatever he has done that Justin continues to respond to.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:46 AM   #197
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
My trouble is that it seems you are reacting so strongly because you have a quasi-religious definition of ki/kokyu (a bit Jedi-Knightish, if you'll forgive me for saying so) and Mike's mechanistic, empirical approach makes a more cosmic approach to ki/kokyu irrelevant/unnecessary.
I think the root of that problem is that the ki concept has become loaded with a lot of baggage from the New Age movement and the frauds who claim they can knock people out from a distance by throwing ki balls or whatever. I don't make such claims and I don't explain technique that way. I'm mechanistic with technique, but how can you be mechanistic with "life"? "Life" is not generated by the fascia of the muscles. And it isn't generated by mechanics of the body.

Let's look at it in terms of electricity. Ben Franklin theorized long ago that the power of lightning was the same as the power that shocked your finger when you touched a doorknob after walking on a carpet. He claimed that the vast power of nature is the source of that tiny power generated when we walk on carpet.

For an analogy, Mike would have to say that the electricity in a radio, for instance, or any electrical mechanism, is generated by the insulation wrapping the wires in that device (i.e., the fascia wrapping the muscles). To keep the relations, he would have to say that electricity is produced when you hook up all the wires in the circuit in the optimal way (align the body with the correct "ground paths"). But the fact is, the electricity must come from OUTSIDE that device or it remains dead and empty. The correct formation of circuits (biomechanical alignment) ONLY allows a clear and complete pathway for the electricity to flow through the circuits, but it must come into the circuits from outside.

Since I associate ki and kokyu with things like walking, breathing, clipping okra in the garden, plants growing and climbing a trellis, I don't see how you get the "jedi knight" association. Everyone has ki, but it comes from their being in the world. Put any human being in the vacuum of space and let him generate his own ki out there, independent of all natural supports. What will happen?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
If a biomechanical approach can produce ki/kokyu in the standard tests we know (the jo trick, the push trick, or the one inch punch), then there need be no appeal to higher powers to make it work.
Well, but it CANNOT "produce" ki. All it can do, at best, is channel ki. And the methods he promotes do sound like the best way to CHANNEL ki that the body gets from OUTSIDE, through its being in a world with gravity, air, water and sunlight. Again. "IF" the body can "produce" ki (life force) and kokyu (breath), then it should be able to do that in a total vacuum. I challenge anyone anywhere to get in a vacuum chamber, have a complete vacuum produced, and show me the "jo trick" or any other "ki trick" you can name. Now THAT is a bet I will put my house on.

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Its like having a mechanistic explanation for the movement of the planets or for the evolution of species. God/Amaterasu/Allah get written out of the picture. Is this a fair restatement of the argument thus far?
Well, IF you can actually create a planetary system or a number of species to evolve. Otherwise, it's just talk.

But taking that a bit further, it's not enough to create a little model of a solar system. You have to create the whole universe to balance even the small number of objects in a single solar system. The bamboo has to be connected to the grove. The human being MUST be connected to nature.

Thanks for the insights.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-31-2006 at 07:51 AM. Reason: speeling and claritificazation

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:49 AM   #198
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Kelvin Yu wrote:
Is it likely that Mike and David Orange are talking past each other due to different definitions and understanding of "ki" / "kokyu" etc ?
Hi Kelvin:

Got out of the office long enough to visit AikiWeb? You must be moving up! Long time.

I understand the *possibility* you're offering, but it doesn't really work. As you know, there's no one set concept of what ki/qi is or what it does in either Japan or China. In fact, there are a lot of views that are congruent.

The point, though, and the subject at hand, is a very limited set of physical skills, not "the meaning of ki". And David clearly doesn't know what those skills are, regardless of his definitions. Even if he called those skills "Oogum-Boogum Power", he would have recognized what was being talked about from the definition, IF he understood how to do them. He doesn't, so I tend to discard the face-saving option you tried to offer.

Insofar as "physical skills" goes, a quick look at Tohei's books and illustrations, O-Sensei's ki demonstrations, etc., shows immediately that the idea of ki and physical skills had been there all along... using the word "ki". So to imply that David's lack of understanding of ki in terms of physical skills is because he's never been exposed to it, or something along those lines, simply won't work from that angle either. He doesn't know.

I realize David gets emotional about the idea of not being an expert, but I'm not sure he should expect people to pretend regardless of the obvious lack... I don't see any point in playing games. Besides, the first time I ever saw David posting, he was posting in his current manic vitriol on EBudo to Rob John because Rob was nicely trying to tell him these same things and David was doing nothing but denigrating Rob, left and right. This is his normal reaction, the name-calling and put-downs, regardless of his talk about the improvements to his mind and personality that he learned in Aikido. Let's just accept it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-31-2006 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:04 AM   #199
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
You can't have it both ways. You accept "misinformation" and then say that Mike does know that he is wrong and has his own agenda.
I think, actually, that Mike was dissatisfied with the abilities he found in his aikido teachers. I never said they were bad. I just played back Mike's statement that none of them had the complete picture of what aikido is reputed to be. But rather than go to someone who did have the whole picture, he seems to have decided that the image of aikido was entirely false and he moved on to the Chinese martial arts.

After some years of that, he began teaching seminars (for which he charges money) in which he teaches a summation of things that he has "figured out" for himself. He threw out all the established teachings on the subject, that have supported the formation of all the arts, and developed his own set of definitions, drawing in some words from aikido, some terms from CMA, others from Western scientificish attitudes and put them together into a package that few people have been willing to challenge simply because he's a hefty booger and can produce a lot of power.

But even if he can do that, I don't see how he should get a pass on answering legitimate questions or on being challenged on the definitions he uses. Since he gets defensive and goes on the attack when you question his definitions or statements, I take that to mean he sustains them by wishful thinking. Since no Chinese teacher has called him on these things, he figures he must be correct. The fact that I challenge him on them and that people like Justin Smith continue to demand the sources of what he says really seems to burn him even though his frequent reply to detailed, rational statements is "cite sources." and nothing more. If you can't cite your sources, he dismisses you entirely and, in fact, if you do cite sources he pooh-poohs and ridicules the person you cite.

I think that's why Justin follows him around. I know that Mike inevitably turns up on threads that I start, and just dismisses what I say with a wave of his hand. I don't care. People can read for themselves and judge what's correct. It's the way life is.

So that's why I say what I say about Mike. Maybe it's misinformation, maybe it's disinformation, maybe it's just wishful thinking. But I would have to toss out 5000 years or so of history to say that he is correct and I don't think I'll do that.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:12 AM   #200
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The fact that I challenge him on them and that people like Justin Smith continue to demand the sources of what he says
I think the two of you belong together, David, frankly. You make quite the couple: same interests, same knowledge.
Quote:
I think that's why Justin follows him around. I know that Mike inevitably turns up on threads that I start, and just dismisses what I say with a wave of his hand. I don't care. People can read for themselves and judge what's correct. It's the way life is.
True, very true. As you've seen by the reception to your threads on how Aikido comes from a baby's movement.
Quote:
So that's why I say what I say about Mike. Maybe it's misinformation, maybe it's disinformation, maybe it's just wishful thinking. But I would have to toss out 5000 years or so of history to say that he is correct and I don't think I'll do that.
Great. I don't think anyone misses the character assassination from you who is trying to act morally superior... but now let's see you explain Tohei's "ki tests", many of them the same ones that Ueshiba did. Those are "mechanistic" demonstrations, not visual fantasies. Tell us how to do them, David, in terms of your explanations of ki and kokyu. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

Mike Sigman
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