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Old 08-30-2006, 09:40 AM   #151
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
David, I am surprised that you have this level of experience considering your very cursory explanation of how the body uses muscle vibration (toning) in maintaining posture.
Well, to be fair to David, he indicates that he's really a "technical writer", not someone involved in research or who has degrees in epidemiology, etc. He's apparently trying to imply that because he's a technical writer he has a better comprehension of terms than most of us mortals. Maybe so, maybe not. I don't see it as a point worth debating, frankly.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:45 AM   #152
DaveS
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Hi Tom,
Isn't this statement tied to classical physics not quantum physics?
I don't think so - quantum is just as much based in making testable hypotheses and testing them by measurement as classical physics. It's just rather different in how it arrives at its predictions.
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:46 AM   #153
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
us mortals.
you're mortal?
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Old 08-30-2006, 09:53 AM   #154
TAnderson
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Hmm...would you show me where Morihei Ueshiba (or Sagawa or Takeda) ever said that? I know Mike says it, but he almost always says he's "pretty sure" these things are related, etc. I've never seen where he went into documented biological dissertation on it, but I'd be glad to hear your explanation on that level.
Sorry David, I should have been clearer there... What I meant was that you defined kokyu not as a force but as an internal organization of the body then you provided posture as an example. I don't expect you to necessarily use very descriptive terminology but your explanations lack the details to make them plausible. This is what I meant by being surprised given your background. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, nor am I questioning your technical ability I just want more of a detailed explanation regarding your theories. I believe this would be constructive to the thread and help keep personal accusations from flying back and forth.

Tim Anderson
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:12 AM   #155
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Sim wrote:
I don't think so - quantum is just as much based in making testable hypotheses and testing them by measurement as classical physics. It's just rather different in how it arrives at its predictions.
Much of quantum physics is not measureable by current mehtods.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:14 AM   #156
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Hmm...would you show me where Morihei Ueshiba (or Sagawa or Takeda) ever said that? I know Mike says it, but he almost always says he's "pretty sure" these things are related, etc. I've never seen where he went into documented biological dissertation on it, but I'd be glad to hear your explanation on that level. ...I don't think Rob John's essays on the Training thread go into those details, either. Maybe you should check with him on that.....Feldenkrais goes into the difference between standing and lying down in his book "Higher Judo: Groundwork."
So where are the documented biological dissertations, peer reviewed and reproduced by objective third parties, for Feldenkrais' *theories*, if you want to hold others to those standards?
Quote:
Kokyu on the ground is really no different from when you are standing. How you get leverage from the ground is another matter. And that is NOT kokyu. It's just leverage.
David, you simply don't understand how many times and how overtly you give away what you know. Seriously. Instead of getting defensive and name-calling, you should argue the issue. Problem is, you don't know enough about the issue to debate it. So what are you to do? I admit it's a puzzler, particularly if you think you have a reputation at stake as an expert. On the other hand, I can't imagine anyone sincerely interested in the topic engaging in all this fruitless frippery the way you do.

Regards

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:14 AM   #157
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, to be fair to David, he indicates that he's really a "technical writer", not someone involved in research or who has degrees in epidemiology, etc.
Well, that is mighty fair and gentlemanly of you as well, Mike, and I appreciate it. Actually, I'm a Project Coordinator in epi and a Study Coordinator in another study in Biostatistics. I am directly involved in the research, but not in the deeper technical or scientific rationale.

[qote=Mike Sigman]He's apparently trying to imply that because he's a technical writer he has a better comprehension of terms than most of us mortals.[/quote]

Well, no. That would have no bearing on the Japanese terminology. And I debate you on those points because I do speak a good bit of Japanese and Mochizuki Sensei often tutored me and went to a lot of trouble to explain a lot of the terminology to me. When I didn't understand a point, he would look up the word in the dictionary and show me the English translation.

What has affected my thinking from epidemiology is their rules for whether something should be accepted as true. We look exhaustively for the influence of chance, bias and confounding by unrecognized side elements. If all those influences can be rigorously discounted, then we cautiously accept the conclusion as being "true." And I like to use that perspective in any discussion of truth.

David

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Old 08-30-2006, 10:15 AM   #158
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
you're mortal?
We all are. I don't believe in reincarnation, either. I used to, in a previous life, but I don't in this one.

Mike
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:20 AM   #159
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, that is mighty fair and gentlemanly of you as well, Mike, and I appreciate it. Actually, I'm a Project Coordinator in epi and a Study Coordinator in another study in Biostatistics. I am directly involved in the research, but not in the deeper technical or scientific rationale.
Fine, David. However, as someone who is fairly rigorous about terms and implications, may I suggest that you distance yourself from giving the impression that you have some expertise in epidemiology if you don't have recognized degrees in epidemiology? "Project Coordinator" for scientific studies is fine... but your own words seem to want to give the impression that you're an expert in epidemiology. As long as you're arguing peoples' meanings and semantics, I'd suggest that you lead by example.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:22 AM   #160
DaveS
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Much of quantum physics is not measureable by current mehtods.
Well, a theory isn't measurable because it's an abstract thing. If you mean that there are competing theories whose predictions agree to beyond the accuracy of what we can currently measure then that's true, but that's why people work on improving experimental techniques. It's not a fundamental difference about quantum that absolves people from having to make predictions and take measurements if they live in a quantum universe, it just means that mathematical physics has developed faster than experimentalists can keep up with.
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:23 AM   #161
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
Sorry David, I should have been clearer there... What I meant was that you defined kokyu not as a force but as an internal organization of the body then you provided posture as an example.
No, sorry. I think you misunderstood. Rob John asked me to say what constitutes "good posture". I replied with a brief outline of how the body constantly adjusts to the environment to maintain balance and the ability to act.

Indeed, this description is straight from Feldenkrais, who really disliked the term "posture" because it implies "posing," while he was interested in action. So he liked to use the term "acture" because nothing is accomplished by posing. Posing is static. Acture is dynamic.

And acture is not at its best when it is based on some exterior set of rules. I went through $2000.00 worth of "Rolfing" in Tokyo, to get my fascia corrected. After that was when I got my really bad back injury. The rolfing people like to define the "proper" way to stand and show you diagrams and show you photographs of yourself. But then you have to remember those ways at all times and constantly adjust yourself to that external "form" of how to stand.

I overcame my back problem when I got some treatment in The Feldenkrais Method (R). There the emphasis is on developing the ability to sense your own tonus on very subtle levels throughout the body. There you learn to cooperate with the body/nervous system's natural impulses at readjustment. For most people, social stresses influence them to override the body's natural impulses in favor of trying to look "like" someone or something else, such as a certain actor or famous person, or like your martial arts teacher.

Still, when you really respond to and cooperate with the nervous system's innate imperatives, you gradually move into the real proper way your body should be organized. Then you can achieve kokyu by using the breath as a way to unite your mind and body.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:23 AM   #162
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

LOL...good one, Mike.

I'm amazed that even with all of the side issues, I'm still getting useful information from these threads. Keep it up guys...somehow I can't help thinking that if the two of you ever got together and I got to witness it, I'd learn a whole heck of a lot. It would be a good combination of two different approaches, and coming at the topic from both sides would only enhance my understanding.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:28 AM   #163
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So where are the documented biological dissertations, peer reviewed and reproduced by objective third parties, for Feldenkrais' *theories*, if you want to hold others to those standards?
Well, read his books. He quotes well documented studies. He does lay out documented research for his theories. It's in "Body and Mature Behavior."

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, you simply don't understand how many times and how overtly you give away what you know. Seriously. Instead of getting defensive and name-calling, you should argue the issue. Problem is, you don't know enough about the issue to debate it.
That sounds defensive to me, Mike, and just a minor variation from name calling. But you don't understand how many times and how overtly you give away what you don't know.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So what are you to do? I admit it's a puzzler, particularly if you think you have a reputation at stake as an expert.
No. At most, I'm a well-informed and deeply experienced hobbyist.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
On the other hand, I can't imagine anyone sincerely interested in the topic engaging in all this fruitless frippery the way you do.
Well, you're putting out the flippery. It's my choice whether to engage it or not. The real question is why do you put it out there? I engage it because this is a board for aikido information and you are intently spreading disinformation.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-30-2006, 10:33 AM   #164
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Project Coordinator" for scientific studies is fine... but your own words seem to want to give the impression that you're an expert in epidemiology. As long as you're arguing peoples' meanings and semantics, I'd suggest that you lead by example.
I don't think anyone has been mislead by anything I've said on the subject. I've made it clear that I don't have a degree in epi, just as you don't have one in aikido. However, in fact, you are notoriously sloppy in your use of terminology. Epi is the work I've done for the past 5-6 years. It does affect my approach to evidence, and yours fails all the "stink" tests.

David

"The term "stink test" is not an officially recognized term of the International Epidemiological Terminological Identification Association or any of its branches, offices or agents."

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Old 08-30-2006, 10:35 AM   #165
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, you're putting out the flippery. It's my choice whether to engage it or not. The real question is why do you put it out there? I engage it because this is a board for aikido information and you are intently spreading disinformation.
David
The word "disinformation" implies that Mike S knows better but is deliberately not telling us the truth because he has some evil agenda. Why go there? Why not assume that he is simply misinformed? (Not that I do, because I have learned a few things from him.) If he is misinformed, show me how. "Disinformation" requires from you a much heavier burden of proof.

R
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Old 08-30-2006, 10:36 AM   #166
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
to be fair, 'grade level physics' does tend to be some of the most relevant physics in many biomechanical applications
My apologies for not getting your name right. I missed this post before I asked the question. " Grade level physics" is classical physics as is the science in this thread.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:14 AM   #167
Duarh
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Much of quantum physics is not measureable by current mehtods.
Please be explicit. Quantum mechanics makes precise predictions about the _statistical_ outcome of experiments and, as such, is fully measurable. If it's not measurable/falsifiable, it's not accepted as physical fact (for instance, string theory is a physical theory, but hasn't been confirmed as physical fact). The predictions of quantum mechanics have been confirmed in a wide range of experiments, and no known contradictions have been reliably observed. That not every single expression of quantum mechanics hasn't been tested, while true, doesn't mean very much - the same holds for classical mechanics (not every possible physical situation has been examined experimentally). And there are _always_ technological bounds on what experiments we can perform - this is as true in QM as in classical mechanics. That the many experiments that we _are_ able to perform have been in accordance with theory leads us accept quantum mechanics (in its relativistic form) as the best understanding of the small-scale universe that we have at the moment, nothing more, nothing less. edit: the point is that in QM we've done due diligence in performing physical experiments, while in 'ki research' no one has

Trust me, physicists would _love_ to do away with QM if they could do so by showing it's not measurable/falsifiable. No one likes having our science be statistical rather than deterministic. Alas, experimental results come back in favor of it time and time again.

edit: and yeah, I don't think quantum mechanics is necessary for describing the phenomena we're talking about here. classical mechanics & electrodynamics are quite sufficient

---

David Orange - I appreciate your overall point that Mr. Sigman may be mis-using the term "ki" to describe what he does (hehe, though the comparison with string theory is less than perfect, because a lot of us are still not convinced it's any more valid than magical fairy dust theory). This may be true; indeed I don't have the expertise to evaluate this fully. However, the terms in which you talk about ki keep me from taking your interpretation too seriously in a MA context, even if they're age-old - I guess I'm just more interested in the things that Mr. Sigman is talking about.

I think part of Mr. Sigman's contention is that the physical effects some MA practitioners ascribe to the influence of this all-pervasive "ki" field can in fact be explained by nothing more than biomechanics. In this sense, perhaps he's not failing to acknowledge that the common interpretation of ki is different, but rather claiming that it's flawed?

Last edited by Duarh : 08-30-2006 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:15 AM   #168
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
The word "disinformation" implies that Mike S knows better but is deliberately not telling us the truth because he has some evil agenda. Why go there? Why not assume that he is simply misinformed? (Not that I do, because I have learned a few things from him.) If he is misinformed, show me how. "Disinformation" requires from you a much heavier burden of proof.

R
Raul, that's a good point. As for misinformation, all I can say is that the Japanese have established what kokyu is for a long time and that ki is also a well understood idea. And Mike's usage of the terms is not consistent with those things. I guess I say disinformation because I think Mike does know that he is misusing the terms. He wants to redefine them. He says this is because he understands "subtle shades" of meaning behind the Japanese terms that other people don't grasp. And I say he is wrong to appropriate those terms for his own agenda, whatever the heck that is.

But I will leave it with "misinformation."

Thanks.

David

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Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:40 AM   #169
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
David Orange - I appreciate your overall point that Mr. Sigman may be mis-using the term "ki" to describe what he does (hehe, though the comparison with string theory is less than perfect, because a lot of us are still not convinced it's any more valid than magical fairy dust theory).
Well, it's only a comparison for analogy's sake, for some perspective of the relation of the claims. The point is, if you redefine well-known concepts to support your claims, then you should expect them to be rejected.

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
However, the terms in which you talk about ki keep me from taking your interpretation too seriously in a MA context, even if they're age-old
Well, much of the problem comes from trying to separate "the martial arts context" from the greater human context. Our society is a technological monster. We do send men out into danger, but whereas the enemy goes out in sandals and robes, carrying any kind of weapon from a rock or a knife to an RPG, our men are preceded by remotely targeted artillery and missiles and they are supported by electronics, jamming equipment, night vision equipment and stuff we don't even know about. So it is much harder for us to connect our warfare directly with our experience as human beings in a context of family and home. The insurgents kiss their babies goodbye and go out in their sandals, wage war, and return home in their sandals and robes.

Likewise, the old samurai generally walked into battle on straw sandals, carrying their equipment, and most of their weapons struck the enemy while still in their own hands. So their approach to fighting was directly from the human body to the human body. It was person-to-person and not very technological at all. So they created their martial arts from human nature.

Now, how can we separate the nature of human being from the nature that supports that humanity?

Recently, I've been transplanting bamboo from a field near my home and into my garden. I have come to appreciate the fine system of roots and rhizomes which join all the stalks below the surface. Moreover, if you cut these roots too close to the single stalk, it will almost certainly die. You can only keep it alive with very careful and constant attention. If you cut far enough around the stalk, you just put it into a new hole and you don't have to do anything to it at all--just place it in a good location relative to the sun and where it won't get too much wind.

"Cutting" the "martial context" out of the greater "human context" is very much the same. All this talk about "generating" qi/ki is like having a spring of water at your back door, but only using the water you get from the water company. It's like having solar electric cells on your roof, but failing to connect them and getting all your electricity from the power company.

Why would you do that if you knew you could get FREE water and FREE electricity, directly from nature? Cutting "the martial context" from the "human context" (which is to say, from the human in natural interaction with nature) makes the task much more obscure instead of clearer. It makes it an externally imposed technology instead of an internally known natural ability.

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
I guess I'm just more interested in the things that Mr. Sigman is talking about...the physical effects some MA practitioners ascribe to the influence of this all-pervasive "ki" field can in fact be explained by nothing more than biomechanics.
Well, in my experience, the ONLY people who attribute martial arts' physical effects to the all pervasive ki field are the fluffy bunnies and the frauds. And that level is a phony level anyway. Why even address that when the REAL martial arts address ki in a powerful and subtle way? The koryu context of jujutsu and kenjutsu deals with ki as the underlying source of all things, but it never postulates somehow "using" pure, formless immaterial ki for anything.

EVERYTHING in that context is physical technique, but you can clearly see the roots of all those techniques in babies (toddlers) struggling together. Yes, to refine it to a high level, there are all kinds of things you must do. Just as you have to add yeast to grape juice to make wine. You still begin with pure grape juice--not some kind of chemical concoction. You start with nature and even the yeast is another natural element. You don't have to go outside human nature at ALL to create every martial art known to man. But human nature is inextricably rooted in and connected to the environment, which is nature that has no concern whatsoever for the "martial context".

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
In this sense, perhaps he's not failing to acknowledge that the common interpretation of ki is different, but rather claiming that it's flawed?
Well, in a sense. He claims to teach you how to generate and brew up something that comes freely to you anyway. You have to work to refine it and transform it to higher levels, but you don't have to generate it at all. And that's his big error.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-30-2006, 11:44 AM   #170
dps
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
edit: and yeah, I don't think quantum mechanics is necessary for describing the phenomena we're talking about here. classical mechanics & electrodynamics are quite sufficient
It seems to me that in David Orange and Mike Sigman's argument, Mike is using more classical mechanics and electrodynamics and David is using more theoretical physics' "underlying connectedness of of all things" like string theory.

Thank You

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Old 08-30-2006, 11:46 AM   #171
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
No, sorry. I think you misunderstood. Rob John asked me to say what constitutes "good posture". I replied with a brief outline of how the body constantly adjusts to the environment to maintain balance and the ability to act.

Indeed, this description is straight from Feldenkrais, who really disliked the term "posture" because it implies "posing," while he was interested in action. So he liked to use the term "acture" because nothing is accomplished by posing. Posing is static. Acture is dynamic.

And acture is not at its best when it is based on some exterior set of rules. I went through $2000.00 worth of "Rolfing" in Tokyo, to get my fascia corrected. After that was when I got my really bad back injury. The rolfing people like to define the "proper" way to stand and show you diagrams and show you photographs of yourself. But then you have to remember those ways at all times and constantly adjust yourself to that external "form" of how to stand.

I overcame my back problem when I got some treatment in The Feldenkrais Method (R). There the emphasis is on developing the ability to sense your own tonus on very subtle levels throughout the body. There you learn to cooperate with the body/nervous system's natural impulses at readjustment. For most people, social stresses influence them to override the body's natural impulses in favor of trying to look "like" someone or something else, such as a certain actor or famous person, or like your martial arts teacher.

Still, when you really respond to and cooperate with the nervous system's innate imperatives, you gradually move into the real proper way your body should be organized. Then you can achieve kokyu by using the breath as a way to unite your mind and body.

Best wishes.

David
David, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that either you do not remember what you posted or you intended what you posted to have a different connotation. Here is what was previously posted (I added the bold for emphasis)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
See, Mike? How is that an "arguing" or "debating" technique? How many times have I posted the answer to that question? Kokyu is coordination of the mind and body through the breath. Now what does that mean? It means to use the breath to focus the mind to permeate the body so that the mind doesn't go off in one direction while the body does something else and the breath is ragged. Kokyu means to consciously breathe smoothly and bring the body into correct alignment through that mental/physical action. Nothing more. It is not an "issued power" that you can hit someone with.
and then....

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Baloney, Mike. You don't know what he was talking about. Sure, he pushed them, and sure, he had kokyu. But he could have stood there with kokyu or he could have kicked them or whatever. No matter how you pat yourself on the back, you are misinterpreting what he said. He could have said, "Look what happens when I stand in good posture and hit them" and you would interpret it as "good posture" being some kind of power that he issued when he hit them. So yes, he hit them while he had kokyu, but no kokyu came out of him and hit them. The kokyu remained with him. It's nothing more than a high degree of organization of the body--NOT an issued force as you STILL seem to be trying to prove.
and you have the NERVE to demand that I tell you where you have defined kokyu as an issued force. KOKYU is NOT a FORCE. It is a high degree of organization of the mind and body through the medium of the breath.
and then ...

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
David, to give you the benefit of the doubt, what constitutes "good" posture? Phsyiologically speaking.
and Finally....

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, I know you have a whole set of phrases and terms you like to hear, but I am not familiar with that whole lingo, so I will explain it by the nerve processes.
So if I came to an incorrect conclusion as to what you believe kokyu is than I apologize. Could you then provide an explanation as to what kokyu is/used?

On a side note where did this concept of what natively the CNS/PNS does = good. There seems to be this corresponding relationship people have (especially new age) that what is natural to the body must be good for the body. This is verifiably incorrect. The CNS/PNS knows nothing of good and bad it only knows function and operations. Environmental imprints can improve or degrade CNS/PNS efficiency (this is excluding disease).

Regards,
Tim Anderson
Who really needs to get back to work...
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:49 AM   #172
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
It seems to me that in David Orange and Mike Sigman's argument, Mike is using more classical mechanics and electrodynamics and David is using more theoretical physics' "underlying connectedness of of all things" like string theory.
Well, that's not really my intention. Everything we do to achieve an effect in aikido must be a "PHYSICAL" thing and it won't work if it violates fundamental biomechanics.

My dispute with Mike is on two points:

He claims that the biomechanics "are" or "generate" ki/qi. I simply say that ki/qi is the life that is in us. Nothing more or less. What we do, we do with life.

Mike claims that kokyu and jin are very closely related. While this is largely true, he has in many instances implied with greater and lesser degrees of specificity, that kokyu is an "issued force" more or less equal to the "jin" of Chinese martial arts, which is an "issued force."

From my perspective, these are the two points on which we disagree.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:52 AM   #173
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Toms Kreicbergs wrote:
I think part of Mr. Sigman's contention is that the physical effects some MA practitioners ascribe to the influence of this all-pervasive "ki" field can in fact be explained by nothing more than biomechanics. In this sense, perhaps he's not failing to acknowledge that the common interpretation of ki is different, but rather claiming that it's flawed?
Hi Toms:

Basically, the idea of "Ki" is very smart. It is the original "Unified Field Theory". All unknown forces/phenomena were simply accounted for by the proposition of a universal force, "Ki". Unfortunately, while "ki" certainly fits everything in an explicative sense, it's predictive qualities and reproducibility are not enough to sustain it, given modern scientific methodology and measurement.

So if you didn't eat breakfast this morning and you run out of energy, it's "no ki". If you were unusually strong as a young boy, you had "good hereditary ki". If you warm up with your exercises, you "get the ki flowing". And so on. All phenomena relate to ki.

However, just because Ki fails as a true and verifiable fact, that does not mean that all the phenomena that were being described by "ki" don't exist. They still exist. Most of them we have names and descriptions for in the western-science paradigm. The amalgam of body attributes encompassed by "ki", we don't normally describe well in western physiology, at least not fully.

For all practical purposes the body phenomena encompassing "ki" involve

(1.) a musculo-fascial relationship that assists strength by increasing the thickness of the fascia and supporting the body structures (becomes hard to cut, abrade, puncture, too). The subconscious plays some sort of undefined role in some of the musculo-fascial relationships.

(2.) a "magnetic" feeling that has something to do with the increased conditioning of the fascia (although we all have this already and it's a mainstay of "Reiki", "Healing Hands of Touch", etc.). The electro-magnetic thing is where the "woo-woo" ki stuff comes in, in part. The other half of the woo-woo stuff comes with the "subconscious" and suggestibility factors, but that's another discussion.

(3.) An ability to expertly source and manipulate forces with the body. This manipulation ties into the "subconscious", the "mind", the "intent", etc., that is also part of the musculo-fascial thing.

What I'm saying is more along the lines that the bodily phenomena described by "ki" aren't 'flawed', but that they represent an area in which investigation is just beginning, in some aspects.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:54 AM   #174
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike claims that kokyu and jin are very closely related. While this is largely true, he has in many instances implied with greater and lesser degrees of specificity, that kokyu is an "issued force" more or less equal to the "jin" of Chinese martial arts, which is an "issued force."
I've asked you to cite that one before, David. I haven't implied any such thing. What appears to be happening instead is that you're confusing "jin" with "fa jin". I.e., you don't know the very terms you're complaining about.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:05 PM   #175
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
David, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that either you do not remember what you posted or you intended what you posted to have a different connotation. Here is what was previously posted (I added the bold for emphasis)
((David Orange wrote:
He could have said, "Look what happens when I stand in good posture and hit them" and you would interpret it as "good posture" being some kind of power that he issued when he hit them."))

I can see where you might misinterpret that, but it was not to say that kokyu equates to good posture. Of course, it is generally necessary to have good posture to have kokyu, but not always. I have refered to being in an awkward position and still being able to exert resistance or force.

((and then ...
Robert John wrote:
David, to give you the benefit of the doubt, what constitutes "good" posture? Phsyiologically speaking.

and Finally....
David Orange wrote:
Well, I know you have a whole set of phrases and terms you like to hear, but I am not familiar with that whole lingo, so I will explain it by the nerve processes.))

Those lines only refer to posture. Neither post mentions kokyu.

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
So if I came to an incorrect conclusion as to what you believe kokyu is than I apologize. Could you then provide an explanation as to what kokyu is/used?
As stated above, kokyu is using the breath as a medium to bring the mind and body into unison for the purpose of taking action. It is a high degree of internal organization. WITH that organization in place, you can then issue power smoothly. But issuing power is issuing "power". It's not "issuing kokyu."

For instance, you can strike "intelligently," but it is not the "intelligence" itself that strikes them. And you can strike with "determination" but it is not the determination itself that hits them. And so on. You can hit someone "with" kokyu, but it is not the "kokyu" that hits them any more than it is the "good posture" that hits them. Is that clearer?

Quote:
Tim Anderson wrote:
On a side note where did this concept of what natively the CNS/PNS does = good. There seems to be this corresponding relationship people have (especially new age) that what is natural to the body must be good for the body. This is verifiably incorrect. The CNS/PNS knows nothing of good and bad it only knows function and operations. Environmental imprints can improve or degrade CNS/PNS efficiency
Exactly. The natural nervous system has gotten the majority of people from infancy to old age and through a full life without any training. The environmental imprints are caused by social stress. If one fails to adjust properly to social stress, those imprints lead to bad health, etc. And Mike's concocted exercises, based on the idea that he "generates" ki from his fascia or wherever else, are a type of that environmental imprint. Feldenkrais' method showed that we can access a level of CNS function at which the CNS will "reset" itself and drop those environmental imprints which hamper our natural impulses and distort our posture, resulting in inhibited action.

By "resetting" the CNS to its natural state, we can act spontaneously, freely, creatively and powerfully to the demands of the moment. The environmental imprints you mention amount to "habitual" forms of behavior, which, ultimately amount to static electric patterns in the brain which do not respond to the reality of the moment but continually reproduce static behaviors regardless of whether they are appropriate responses or not.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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