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Old 08-31-2006, 05:48 PM   #226
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

I just saw this whole thread today, read through it and find my name. Other than that, I've little of relevance to contribute. To clarify what I think the "vein of gold" is (and I posted this elsewhere - somewhere on AJ), I think the title "Aikido is Toddler Movement" is a great image. What I think David does highlight is that babies do baby movements without reflection, and until made rigid or stereotyped by ordinary life, the baby tends to find the most efficient and relaxed way of moving APPROPRIATE TO THE BABY'S FUNCTION AND DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE. And that if we, as adults can carry out our goal-directed movements (including martial) with the relaxed efficency of a toddler sitting down or rolling over, that would be "gold," and it is a very useful image to work with. What relation this has, however, to jin/kokyu/ki/chi, etc. is not something I'm qualified to expound on because, honestly, I don't understand those things very well. I can't do any of them. That's why I read posts by Mike and others - hoping to learn - although I know I really need to learn first hand - a new project for my upcoming years. (Who I train with is irrelevant, btw, unless I start expounding knowledge I claim I've acquired - and then and only then - antecedents and teachers will become germane).

Best

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Old 08-31-2006, 06:43 PM   #227
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Some people have pointed out that the Asian masters are teaching a lot of Western science explanations for the old ki things now.

Others have pointed out that there are no old masters like Ueshiba, Mochizuki, Shioda and Saito anymore.

Hmmmm....maybe those two facts are related.

In the old ki paradigm, people knew they were connected to nature and they had to understand by "feeling" things.

In the "alternative" paradigm, they have to understand by explanations.

Maybe the new explanations are just wrong?

Best to you.

David
Hi David,

It is certainly an interesting area!

Like anything IMO, both approaches have good and bad. I do think the scientific sounding (stress on "sounding") one has more bad, at least as expounded by its loudest proponents.

Some points as I see them:

-this was not the way many awesome martial artists past and present, including the originators of some martial arts, thought or wrote about things (even in times with scientific knowledge being abundant).

-there's somewhat of a 'who cares?' feel to it. For example, do we need vectors to describe the basis for sweeping the floor or understand how it is done? And how is analyzing vectors important when someone is coming to attack you? It is not, paralysis by analysis. You have to 'feel' the situation there, so why not 'feel' to begin with?

-not all people are vector math and physics minded. This approach can impede learning, especially in beginners. It can actually turn people away from taijiquan and aikido.

-despite claims of unusual strength, its promoters might just be waxing romantic about efficient use of normal strength, timing, balance, and relaxation.

-consider punching a bag in a good front stance. Then deliver the same push, but only standing on one foot. This second push is simply not as strong or as easy to do. The vector people would have to explain how the vector strength has decreased even though the same foot is on the ground making the ground-path connection in both cases (http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-stren...sue-4/p21.gif).

-if this scientific sounding qi is present, then it, like all things IMO, can factually be described as an expression of the etheric qi, which is what most traditional and modern sources talk about.


One training partner described his view to me as relaxing every cell of his body. I love that image!! I described my view to him as being what is not allowed in an arm-wrestling match. In a typical match, you basically only use your arm, while it is a foul to use your whole self to efficiently get your opponents' hand on the table. One seeks to put this arm wrestling cheater relaxed whole self into every part of their body. We agreed to postpone our no holds barred match over it.

Some other ones I like to some degree are:

-'external' arts are like getting $100,000 dollars right now, while 'internal' ones are like putting it in the bank.

-'external' arts are self defense, 'internal' arts are heath defense (which includes the self).


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-31-2006, 06:49 PM   #228
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Once again, Justin only critiques, while having no knowledge or solutions.... but certainly with a one-minded vengeance, for some bizarre reason, to chase "Mike Sigman".

Justin.... are you really in Virginia, as you posted, or in Oregon, as your ISP shows?

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:02 PM   #229
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Once again, Justin only critiques, while having no knowledge or solutions.... but certainly with a one-minded vengeance, for some bizarre reason, to chase "Mike Sigman".

Justin.... are you really in Virginia, as you posted, or in Oregon, as your ISP shows?
Some points, then I have more important things to do, like wash my hair (and I'm bald!):

-I did not "only" critique in my previous post, which is obvious from reading the post.

-As usual, you or anyone is invited to comment on the critiques I did present.

-I did not mention you in my post, so you have, again, no basis to claim vengeance, chasing, or anything similarly silly, nor claim it if I reply to your direct comments and questions about me.

-What did the moderators say when you reported me? Do let us know. I'm curious to see how they treat a 'He asks me questions I don't like and he disagrees with most of what I have to say. Ban him.' type of approach...

-Hey, since we are talking about taijiquan, do please check out my new short article: http://www.statisticool.com/taijiclass.htm You might even claim it is only critiqing!


Justin

Last edited by statisticool : 08-31-2006 at 08:05 PM.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:08 PM   #230
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Justin.... are you really in Virginia, as you posted, or in Oregon, as your ISP shows?
Mike,
How would you know what ISP Justin is using?
Just curious.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:15 PM   #231
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Oregon or Virginia as you claimed in your opening post, Justin?


Mike Sigman
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:31 PM   #232
statisticool
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oregon or Virginia as you claimed in your opening post, Justin?

Mike Sigman
Just take the average and say Nebraska.


Justin

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:34 PM   #233
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Just take the average
I will. Thanks.

Mike
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:43 PM   #234
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Once again, Justin only critiques, while having no knowledge or solutions.... but certainly with a one-minded vengeance, for some bizarre reason, to chase "Mike Sigman".
Mike, didn't you notice that Justin replied to "me"?
And he was replying to my post to him--a closed loop which included you nowhere in it. By what logic do you derive that he was chasing you? Is he not allowed to answer "others," now, when they directly address him, without it being "chasing Mike Sigman"?

Or are you just yanking his chain?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Justin.... are you really in Virginia, as you posted, or in Oregon, as your ISP shows?
Why did you go to the trouble of tracking his IP?
And why does it matter where he's posting from? Talk about apropos of nothing...

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:58 PM   #235
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
I just saw this whole thread today, read through it and find my name. Other than that, I've little of relevance to contribute.
Ellis, I quoted from your PM to me on e-budo when Mike Sigman insisted that no one took my idea about "Aikido Comes From Toddler Movement" with anything but ridicule.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
To clarify what I think the "vein of gold" is...I think the title "Aikido is Toddler Movement" is a great image. What I think David does highlight is that babies do baby movements without reflection, and until made rigid or stereotyped by ordinary life, the baby tends to find the most efficient and relaxed way of moving APPROPRIATE TO THE BABY'S FUNCTION AND DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE.
And I don't claim that aikido is simply reverting to baby movement, but that you can see babies doing rudimentary aiki movement all the time. And they do other things that can be seen as rudimentary forms of other arts. I think I was able to perceive this mostly because Mochizuki Sensei's teaching comprised the essence of all the major Japanese martial arts, combined through the elements of human movement common to all of them. Applying that experience with the observation skills developed in Feldenkrais study, I concluded that toddler movements are one major source of the techniques of all those arts but that they have to be recognized and guided to refinement for mature development.

Quote:
What relation this has, however, to jin/kokyu/ki/chi, etc.
I don't know why Mike brought it up on this thread. It's part of his general effort to reject my ideas on any subject, I suppose. I hope I did not offend you by posting those statements from a private messsage. It was, in part, another attempt to reach some common ground with Mike since your positive comments about him have tempered my approach toward him--if you could imagine it being worse.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
(Who I train with is irrelevant, btw, unless I start expounding knowledge I claim I've acquired - and then and only then - antecedents and teachers will become germane).
Again, please excuse me for bringing you and your experience into the discussion and thank you for your tolerance and consideration.

Best wishes,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:05 AM   #236
kelvinyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Hi Mike,

Not sure about me moving up.....but the clutter on my desk IS definitely piling up ...

always nice to read your commentaries....until all hell breaks loose that is....

best regards,

Kelvin
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Old 09-01-2006, 07:47 AM   #237
Esaemann
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Any thoughts on this?
I read in a book, can't remember the author, (paraphrasing) that when a fly (read a bird somewhere else) cannot alight (successfully land) or take flight from you, you will have achieved a high level in Tai Chi.
I understand the reasoning. If even the weight/force of a fly can be grounded, then the force of another person can be also. I.e. if someone pushes or hits at you, there is nothing there for them to push/hit against; like hitting air.
I'd be happy to achieve that with one pound of pressure, someday after a couple hundred years of practice. That is one of the goals in our push hands class.
Anybody believe this is possible (with a fly)?
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:08 AM   #238
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Kelvin Yu wrote:
always nice to read your commentaries....until all hell breaks loose that is....
Sometimes that's when it gets constructive and little bits of knowledge come out. You never know. I long ago learned to be patient and not just drop a thread because of bickering (unless it's too-badly deteriorated).

Are you still on the other list or did you get dropped because you were always "out of the office"? PM me if there's a problem.

Best.

Mike
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:10 AM   #239
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
Any thoughts on this?
I read in a book, can't remember the author, (paraphrasing) that when a fly (read a bird somewhere else) cannot alight (successfully land) or take flight from you, you will have achieved a high level in Tai Chi.
I understand the reasoning. If even the weight/force of a fly can be grounded, then the force of another person can be also. I.e. if someone pushes or hits at you, there is nothing there for them to push/hit against; like hitting air.
I'd be happy to achieve that with one pound of pressure, someday after a couple hundred years of practice. That is one of the goals in our push hands class.
Anybody believe this is possible (with a fly)?
Hi Eric: Two different things. The bird thing where it can't fly out of your hand... no resistance to any forces. The fly alights on your body and the body automatically readjusts its balance... that has to do with the six-directions of force/balance.

Best,

Mike
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:59 AM   #240
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
I read in a book...that when a fly...cannot alight (successfully land) or take flight from you, you will have achieved a high level in Tai Chi...Anybody believe this is possible (with a fly)?
Actually, Richard Kim wrote in The Classical Man about meeting a monk who sat meditating in a public park (in Shanghai, I think it was) and was covered up with mosquitoes. But as Kim watched, the mosquitoes fell dead around the man. He talked to the man afterward and began "training" with him. They would meet every day and do nothing but walk a circle for about an hour each time. After about a year of that, the monk told him it was enough and they stopped training together.

FWTW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-01-2006, 10:05 AM   #241
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Actually, Richard Kim wrote in The Classical Man about meeting a monk who sat meditating in a public park (in Shanghai, I think it was) and was covered up with mosquitoes. But as Kim watched, the mosquitoes fell dead around the man. He talked to the man afterward and began "training" with him. They would meet every day and do nothing but walk a circle for about an hour each time. After about a year of that, the monk told him it was enough and they stopped training together.
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy some "Off" spray?

It's sort of like the story of the man who came back to his first teacher and told him that he'd just spent 20 years learning to walk on water. His teacher said, "All those years just to save a few bucks on the ferry?"
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Old 09-01-2006, 10:09 AM   #242
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just buy some "Off" spray?

It's sort of like the story of the man who came back to his first teacher and told him that he'd just spent 20 years learning to walk on water. His teacher said, "All those years just to save a few bucks on the ferry?"
I think Kim continued to use the "Off."

I find that when I'm in the company of a Japanese person, the mosquitoes go to them and leave me alone, for some reason.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:06 AM   #243
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
I find that when I'm in the company of a Japanese person, the mosquitoes go to them and leave me alone, for some reason.
Ahh...but Mike is a mosquito of a different breed.
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:28 AM   #244
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Ahh...but Mike is a mosquito of a different breed.
Actually, I think I'm more of a gadfly than a mosquito.

Mike
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:27 PM   #245
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Well, I say Jedi Knight-ish because you explain ki as a cosmic force (as Ben Kenobi said: "Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.")
It only occurred to me much later that you might not realize that the whole jedi thing was based on the samurai.

Did you realize that? The whole "force" idea is modeled directly on the culture of ki?

I don't mean to sound rude, but it occurred to me that these days some people don't know that. Not long after the Star Wars series began, just as I was getting out of college, I mentioned this to a young woman at my church. "The Jedi are based on the Samurai and all the light-saber fighting is based on the Samurai sword."

"No, it's not!" she said. She was not a Zen-dog type. She had never been exposed to any of that culture. But I thought by now that everyone was aware of this.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:35 PM   #246
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
It only occurred to me much later that you might not realize that the whole jedi thing was based on the samurai.

Did you realize that? The whole "force" idea is modeled directly on the culture of ki?
I agree with Raul that your idea of "Ki" seems to be modeled on the idea of the "Force" in Star Wars and I agree that that Hollywood idea was in turn based on a misunderstanding of what "Ki" is.

You treat Ki as a form of "The Force" and that's exactly the kind of "ki" that does not sustain any support with even casual examination in light of today's western technology. As I noted though, some of the esoteric discussions in Asia do indeed exist as tangible issues, even though they are/were commonly addressed as "ki". The phenomena exist; Ki does not. The use of "ki" and "kokyu" and "jin", etc., are strictly matters of convenience, from my perspective. I look at the phenomena, measurement, and reproducibility... without meaning any disrespect to anyone's closely cherished beliefs and surrogate gods.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:31 PM   #247
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
It only occurred to me much later that you might not realize that the whole jedi thing was based on the samurai.

Did you realize that? The whole "force" idea is modeled directly on the culture of ki?

David

I do realize that, David. Please give me a little credit. "Jedi Knightish" was only a flippant little phrase.


R
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:36 PM   #248
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Well, there you go. Mike says the cosmic force of ki does not exist; David says its does. And never the twain shall meet.
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:48 PM   #249
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Well, there you go. Mike says the cosmic force of ki does not exist; David says its does. And never the twain shall meet.
Maybe, if there is an episode VII.
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Old 09-02-2006, 05:18 AM   #250
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
For most people, social stresses influence them to override the body's natural impulses in favor of trying to look "like" someone or something else, such as a certain actor or famous person, or like your martial arts teacher.
That can't be right.
Could this possibly be true? Most people?
Nah, I don't buy that.
David, you are wrong.

(Some pages back, right? Never mind, I just had to reply)
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