Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-28-2009, 01:09 PM   #1
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Less acceptance with more rank

Hello fellow Aikidoka,

I am sure this has probably been asked or stated before, if so I am sorry. It's been a while since I have been on here. But I have really been thinking about Aikido, how we train, what is and what isn't practical....etc.

Don't worry, I am one of the guys that believe in the art and it's principles. One of the things I have been pondering is the way Uke attacks a more experienced aikidoka. I know that in Aikido we focus on helping our partners. Wouldn't it be a bit more beneficial for Nage (Tori) if when he is at a certain level to be attacked with more realism than a non- yudansha would be?

It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.

I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.

What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic? Yes I know the Bunkai (Application) of the techniques. I am not a begginer, although I don't profess to be "the shihan". I am just saying. It seems like we should see more realism in attack from Uke as we progress in rank.

Even in randori, it would be nice to see some of the openings exploited a bit more. I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.

What do you think?
Respect.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2009, 11:55 PM   #2
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 516
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.
Good eye. It's a real trap that a lot of people (too many) fall into, including some pretty high ranking ones.

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic? Yes I know the Bunkai (Application) of the techniques. I am not a begginer, although I don't profess to be "the shihan". I am just saying. It seems like we should see more realism in attack from Uke as we progress in rank.
I'll let you know when I get there.

But seriously, 'realism' from attacks can be simulated by offering real problems to solve without threat of injury from a very early stage of training, right from the beginning.

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
What do you think?
That a lot of people will agree and disagree with you.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2009, 07:22 AM   #3
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Very Simple - it is up to each "advanced" practitioner to care for his own advancement.

During some stages in my development, I looked for more realistic attacks and asked my Uke for them. Some people found it difficult to do (beginners mostly, but not only). In some cases,I had to reteach that person to attack. Others had experiance from other M.A. and surprised me.
I would point out, that during other times, I found a symbolic attack to be just as good and at times even better for my advancment. For example when starting to learn better timing and "reacting to intention" or when trying to improve the mechnics of my technique and own body movement - working very slowly.
Limiting yourself to one form of work is problematic for your own advancing, one should keep is mind open once evey some while. This is true regardless of the pardigem you follow (even if you think your training is reality based - go and see what others are doing, learn from it).

Quote:
I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.
A demo is a demo and not practice.
A good practitioner should know he had an opening even if you do not exploit it ( I know I do, and I am medicure at best).

Quote:
It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.
We practice combinations, though less then signle techniques.
There are several reasons for that:
A. A single attack is often better for learning to idnetify intent and timing.
B. It is also better for perfecting a technique.
C. Even multiple attacks start with the first one (if you respond well to it, others may not come).

There ara also some other considerations such as:
Our group has all levels practicing toghether, multiple attacks are advanced for some and Sensei dislikes splitting the group too often.

I should mention most practitioners face multiple attacks often in Randori. The typical way of practiving Randori (in our Dojo) allows both practioner to attack and defend as they wish (at any given time, one is Tori and the other Uke, a moment later, the roles may reverse), if one does not respond swiftly enough to a single attack - he will likely be attacked with a secondary attack. We also tend to use more punchs and strikes, then we use grabs, especially during Randori.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2009, 08:47 AM   #4
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post

I'll let you know when I get there.

But seriously, 'realism' from attacks can be simulated by offering real problems to solve without threat of injury from a very early stage of training, right from the beginning.
Thanks Tarik. I agree with you that realism can be simulated by offering real problems to solve.And being careful of injury should always be considered.

Amir you stated "I would point out, that during other times, I found a symbolic attack to be just as good and at times even better for my advancment. For example when starting to learn better timing and "reacting to intention" or when trying to improve the mechnics of my technique and own body movement - working very slowly".

This is Keiko. And I think keiko is great! I think what I have been thinking about, is why a lot (not all) dojo's or aikidoka only focus on one form of training? I come from different M.A. and have been in Aikido for about 15 years. So having experience in other m.a. helps when thinking about the application of technique.

Amir wrote "I should mention most practitioners face multiple attacks often in Randori. The typical way of practiving Randori (in our Dojo) allows both practioner to attack and defend as they wish (at any given time, one is Tori and the other Uke, a moment later, the roles may reverse), if one does not respond swiftly enough to a single attack - he will likely be attacked with a secondary attack. We also tend to use more punchs and strikes, then we use grabs, especially during Randori."

I think this is good. I like!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 11:22 AM   #5
Maarten De Queecker
Dojo: Aikikai Gent, Brugse Aikido Vereniging
Location: Bruges
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 139
Belgium
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
Hello fellow Aikidoka,

I am sure this has probably been asked or stated before, if so I am sorry. It's been a while since I have been on here. But I have really been thinking about Aikido, how we train, what is and what isn't practical....etc.

Don't worry, I am one of the guys that believe in the art and it's principles. One of the things I have been pondering is the way Uke attacks a more experienced aikidoka. I know that in Aikido we focus on helping our partners. Wouldn't it be a bit more beneficial for Nage (Tori) if when he is at a certain level to be attacked with more realism than a non- yudansha would be?

It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.

I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.

What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic? Yes I know the Bunkai (Application) of the techniques. I am not a begginer, although I don't profess to be "the shihan". I am just saying. It seems like we should see more realism in attack from Uke as we progress in rank.

Even in randori, it would be nice to see some of the openings exploited a bit more. I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.

What do you think?
Respect.
There is a problem with the interpretation of "realistic attacks". I will sound incredibly arrogant by saying so but here it goes: Randori is not realistic. A number of people coming running straight at you, trying to take you down but without any intent to -sorry for the word use- kick your ass? For one the attackers will use the typical aikido attacks, most of which are never used "on the street". Second, a randori is done is a spacious, controlled environment with friends. The street is far from that. If you want to do a realistic randori, invite a couple of thugs into the dojo and ask them to try beat tori up, no holds barred. Tori will have to be a pretty damn good and experienced aikidoka to come out on top since
a) the way the thugs attack will be very un-aikido-like, thus confusing tori. The speed will be incredible and the distance between uke and tori extremely small.
b) the thugs won't be so polite as to wait before tori has gotten rid of one of them to attack again. They will all attack at the same time, ferociously and more pissed off each time they hit the floor (which they probably won't unless you punch them in the face).
c) they won't be nicely doing ukemi when you put a joint lock on them. They will try to resist it and while you attempt to get one heavily resisting opponent to the ground, the other two will have jumped you from behind.

To answer another question: When do yokomen uchi and shomen uchi become realistic?
Shomen uchi can be seen as an uppercut. The only difference is that it now goes from below to above and comes from much closer. Yokomen uchi is your average attempt at hitting you in the face. Most people will not strike from their centres but from the sides since it generates more power. Differences are more or less the same as shomenuchi. These street variants are way stronger than their aikido counterparts, however.

So in conclusion it would indeed benefit the yudansha if we attacked them like attacks happen on the street but they are very, very un-aikido and because of their short distance and speed can create an atmosphere of tension and frustration between uke and tori, which again is very un-aikido albeit realistic . I haven't said anything about a fast succession of attacks since these are extremely hard to counter and I have not seen them covered in aikido as of yet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2009, 06:31 PM   #6
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

I'd have to agree with Maarten. Randori is a more controlled setting. I can't see it being used on any level to mimic real life.

As for attacking some one more experienced than yourself; I was uke for a higher level student yesterday. They pulled a nikkyo on me that triggered a painful crunching sound. I'm still sore. :/ It came to my attention at that moment no matter how good or bad of an uke I am it IS my responsibility to protect myself from injury, no matter what. I think stepping in with that mindset can save your joint in the end, and still make you a good throw for nage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 05:29 PM   #7
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Cheers to Maarten and cheers to the OP.

My abbreviated feelings on it are this:

The "Classical" aikido attacks used are positively brilliant for teaching aikido. The way they impart energy, the angles created, etc are all marvelous for teaching the techniques as needed.

However, when an aikidoka reaches the point where he/she can perform these techniques with some proficiency, it is time to step up the attacks. This is where cross training comes in handy: you'd be amazed how many aikidoka fail to respond if you simply don't step forward on a mune-tsuki, which no one with any training at all in a striking art would do.

There is a place for classical aikido. But there is also a place, right alongside it, for realistic aikido. The angles are there; so are the techniques. But if the instincts and the training aren't there, then you're severely hampering your training and could be in for a rude surprise some day.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 06:34 AM   #8
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

here is my [humble] take on it. If you get in to fight with me, no rules... a lot will happen. Im sure to get a beating, but give me one shot at any of your joints, and your world will be in pain...and injured for perhaps the rest of your life...its easy enough just to do this in training with nikkyo, depending on your lack of flexibility. [Ill probably go for biting your ear as well - lol]

What many people fail to realize, which separates Aikido from the striking styles, is that each technique is about attacking the joints of a person...the weakest part of their body is their strongest point...and joints are vulnerable to all [though I do wonder about Cali's Gov.]

I quite often see many people go though the movements but not understanding how much energy they waste by attacking with strength...in the wrong areas...is someone stronger than you?... then your in for a world of hurt - unless, you put your center on executing the techniques not resisting or pushing muscle, but playing with body dynamics of their joints. [not as clear as I would like...anyway.]

So, the way people attack in Aikido is a guide only so you get the point of what will work and even feel it for yourself...again aikido will not look pretty and like Aikido attacks n a real situation, but the confidence of knowing how you can play with joints like a puzzle will play in your favor.

Aikido, in my eyes, is like a finishing art...gives you that advantage, allowing for more control and a nicer finish. [mileage varies on other guys skill, and your own...but that is the obvious.]

Best...dont fight - if you like that sort o thing, then that is how I see it plays out.

p.s.
I make no claim of being a master at joint manipulation [a.k.a. Aikido].

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-28-2009 at 06:43 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 10:54 AM   #9
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,719
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

IMHO, before O'Sensei accepted Aikido students, they usually already had their black belt in some striking art. Therefore, it wasn't necessary to include it in the curriculum.

Now that people are coming straight into Aikido, it still isn't taught, but needs to be integrated as an important aspect of training.

Where are these easy teachers? My experience is that that higher ranks get angry with you if you don't not give them full effort. The more I give them, the easier for them, and the harder I bounce off the mat. So yes, the higher ranks have been less accepting of sloppy attacks.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 03:08 PM   #10
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

That raises the question then: if the sensei has only trained in aikido and himself doesn't have the proper hand skills, who will teach his students? Chances are that it simply won't be taught.

I remember one time I went to a seminar and, at the request of the instructor, wore my brown belt instead of my black belt. I offered a small amount of resistance to a woman who told me she had just gotten her shodan (and started training when I had gotten mine) and she had trouble throwing me. I then threw her, and she said "So much power... you throw just like a typical brown belt."

I smiled, bowed, and moved on, but the lesson had been learned: some people, no matter their rank, don't like to be challenged, even a little bit. It's those people who are going to be in for some soul-searching after their training fails them.

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 01:23 AM   #11
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Nick Porter wrote: View Post
I smiled, bowed, and moved on, but the lesson had been learned: some people, no matter their rank, don't like to be challenged, even a little bit. It's those people who are going to be in for some soul-searching after their training fails them.

So true. And they are one of the reasons why Aikido gets a bad rap.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 02:55 PM   #12
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, before O'Sensei accepted Aikido students, they usually already had their black belt in some striking art. Therefore, it wasn't necessary to include it in the curriculum.
Now that people are coming straight into Aikido, it still isn't taught, but needs to be integrated as an important aspect of training.

Where are these easy teachers? My experience is that that higher ranks get angry with you if you don't not give them full effort. The more I give them, the easier for them, and the harder I bounce off the mat. So yes, the higher ranks have been less accepting of sloppy attacks.
Interesting...I hadn't realized that Mr. Seiser. Thanks for that info.
It's been a minute since I checked back here but
I absolutely agree that striking needs to be intergrated into the art.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 03:30 PM   #13
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
There is a problem with the interpretation of "realistic attacks".

a) the way the thugs attack will be very un-aikido-like, thus confusing tori. The speed will be incredible and the distance between uke and tori extremely small.b) the thugs won't be so polite as to wait before tori has gotten rid of one of them to attack again. They will all attack at the same time, ferociously and more pissed off each time they hit the floor (which they probably won't unless you punch them in the face).
c) they won't be nicely doing ukemi when you put a joint lock on them. They will try to resist it and while you attempt to get one heavily resisting opponent to the ground, the other two will have jumped you from behind.
That is my defintion of "Realistic Attacks".

I wasn't really concerned with the randori aspect. Randori like waza in general is great for teaching principle.But IMO we have to transcend waza and understand the principle.

One thing my Sensei does quite often is exploit my openings.
I love that.

But when I say realistic I don't mean take nages head off. What I mean is why not up the stakes a bit? Okay great at 5th -1st kyu we deal with traditional tsuki or shomen etc. But now we're Yudansha...Uke should be coming with more now.

Realistic is, the guy attacking is not trying to let you practice a technique. Realistic is the guy is trying to hit you, kick you, bite you etc. Now Mr Yudansha...How do you handle that?

I'm not suggesting that we become brawlers....What I am suggesting is that we seek to become STUDENTS of the art.

Shomen uchi ikkyo is a lot more fun to me when Uke has been throwing combos and I detect the opening and apply the technique.

Same technique, same principle.

Hope that makes a little sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 06:43 AM   #14
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
I know that in Aikido we focus on helping our partners. Wouldn't it be a bit more beneficial for Nage (Tori) if when he is at a certain level to be attacked with more realism than a non- yudansha would be?
The yudansha's first responsibility is to his training partner (uke). Uke lends his body to tori, therefore tori has a responsibility not to abuse the trust placed in him for that body. Encouraging a junior ranked student to attack too fast and too hard for his abilities to take that ukemi is not responsible behaviour on the part of the senior student.

To me, a genuine attack (ie one made with intent, clarity and committment) is much more testing of tori's abilities than a 'realistic' attack where uke is swinging wildly in tori's general direction...

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.
Combinations are interesting, and I have occasionally practised them in the Aikido dojo. However, if the yudansha has not effectively controlled uke during the course of his primary attack, he's into the arena of brawling rather than Aiki. If the primary attack is a feint, and the secondary attack the 'real' one, that would be much more interesting and more realistic to train with

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.
Which means they are either not yet competent to take the fall, do not trust tori to take responsibility for their bodies, or simply are untrained in how to make a genuine attack.

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic?
They don't I've never seen either used in a pub brawl. Instead it's more likely a weapon of some sort will be used. In the Northern English city I grew up near to, the local lady TaeKwonDo champion at the time had her jaw broken in a pub brawl about 20 years ago by somebody using a chair as a weapon.

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
Even in randori, it would be nice to see some of the openings exploited a bit more. I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.
Shame on the Shihan for not instructing his ukes to exploit his openings then! In my dojo we do point out where openings have been left in a rank-appropriate way - If it's a junior rank, a knee or fist in the direction of the opening is enough.. a more senior rank will have his technique reversed on him.

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 07:54 AM   #15
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, before O'Sensei accepted Aikido students, they usually already had their black belt in some striking art. Therefore, it wasn't necessary to include it in the curriculum.

Now that people are coming straight into Aikido, it still isn't taught, but needs to be integrated as an important aspect of training.
Hi Lynn,

I would disagree with your first paragraph. I agree with the first sentence. Throughout the articles and interviews, it can be seen that a lot of the people who met Ueshiba and eventually became his students had previous training in some martial art. However, it is also clear that all their previous training meant nothing when they went up against Ueshiba. So, all that striking training from those other arts did them no good. As you've just done a seminar with Akuzawa, do you think that his striking is anything like most karate strikes? Do you think you can get that kind of power in striking from learning karate? Me, I don't think you can. Unless, maybe, you're training with Ushiro.

Personally, I think it wasn't included in the curriculum because Ueshiba's aikido had power built in. It drove his striking, when he chose to use it. I think he didn't use it often, and maybe didn't teach it, because his focus was on spiritual manifestations of his power. And maybe, at times, he was using his whole body as the striking part -- some said grabbing him was like getting shocked with electricity (horribly paraphrased, sorry).

As for your second paragraph, yes, I agree. Ueshiba's power should be integrated with training. Course, most know what I think drove Ueshiba's power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 08:16 AM   #16
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
Hello fellow Aikidoka,

I am sure this has probably been asked or stated before, if so I am sorry. It's been a while since I have been on here. But I have really been thinking about Aikido, how we train, what is and what isn't practical....etc.

Don't worry, I am one of the guys that believe in the art and it's principles. One of the things I have been pondering is the way Uke attacks a more experienced aikidoka. I know that in Aikido we focus on helping our partners. Wouldn't it be a bit more beneficial for Nage (Tori) if when he is at a certain level to be attacked with more realism than a non- yudansha would be?

It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.

I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.

What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic? Yes I know the Bunkai (Application) of the techniques. I am not a begginer, although I don't profess to be "the shihan". I am just saying. It seems like we should see more realism in attack from Uke as we progress in rank.

Even in randori, it would be nice to see some of the openings exploited a bit more. I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.

What do you think?
Respect.
For part of the answer, I think Tarik's post was very good:

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
But seriously, 'realism' from attacks can be simulated by offering real problems to solve without threat of injury from a very early stage of training, right from the beginning.
I think if you want to know more about how to do that, look up Chuck Clark of the Jiyushinkai. He's built a great organization with some top notch training models. One of those is what Tarik is talking about. Or that's how I took it.

For another part of the answer, I think you have to look at "center on contact". Supposedly, it's what we're all working toward. And as you progress, you should get better at it. So, yeah, I think some of the training can involve combination of attacks by uke, but on the flip side, tori/nage should be working on center on contact which, if done, should negate those secondary and tertiary attacks.

When does a single shomen or yokomen attack become "realistic"? When you have the "center on contact" skill developed such that uke's first attack is disrupted to the point that further attacks are very hard to do.

As to what shihan are doing? Why not ask them? Or politely/respectfully find a way to get some hands on time with them? Just because you've seen openings and/or uke waiting, doesn't always equate to lack of "realism" in the shihan's abilities. From experience at seminars, I would say that some higher level teachers certainly were (and others at least seemed) open to questions and extra hands on time (outside of the normal seminar training schedule).
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 12:14 PM   #17
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Ruth McWilliam wrote: View Post
The yudansha's first responsibility is to his training partner (uke). Uke lends his body to tori, therefore tori has a responsibility not to abuse the trust placed in him for that body. Encouraging a junior ranked student to attack too fast and too hard for his abilities to take that ukemi is not responsible behaviour on the part of the senior student.
Ruth
Ruth I never said anything about Jr. Rankings. I am specifically refering to Yudansha. True we all have a responsibility not to abuse anyone. I am refering to higher ranking aikidoka.

Which is my point. The higher the rank, the more competent and able one should be to increase their training.

Now you also stated
"To me, a genuine attack (ie one made with intent, clarity and committment) is much more testing of tori's abilities than a 'realistic' attack where uke is swinging wildly in tori's general direction..."

Again Im not talking about some kyudansha not knowing how to attack. Wild swingin punches is not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about really knowing how to strike.

Theorhetically saying "committment, intent etc. sounds great...The issue is that many times boxers/strikers throw very fast jabs as set ups for their intending strike..

If you do not train yourself to distinguish the difference by sincere keiko, you can set yourself up to walk into a fistfull of punches.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 05:48 AM   #18
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 393
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
Theorhetically saying "committment, intent etc. sounds great...The issue is that many times boxers/strikers throw very fast jabs as set ups for their intending strike..

If you do not train yourself to distinguish the difference by sincere keiko, you can set yourself up to walk into a fistfull of punches.
Yes, I agree, hence my point about our training incorporating feints being of more interest. I'll have a word with my Sensei later and ask him what he thinks

One of our major weaknesses is that we don't generally train against fast jabs, but I suspect that the Aiki answer would be somewhere along the lines of deflection of the feints until the attacker presents a real opening with a more committed strike...

Ruth
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2009, 06:04 AM   #19
kartoffelngeist
Dojo: BHAY Aberdeen
Location: Aberdeen
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Less acceptance with more rank

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
Hello fellow Aikidoka,

I am sure this has probably been asked or stated before, if so I am sorry. It's been a while since I have been on here. But I have really been thinking about Aikido, how we train, what is and what isn't practical....etc.

Don't worry, I am one of the guys that believe in the art and it's principles. One of the things I have been pondering is the way Uke attacks a more experienced aikidoka. I know that in Aikido we focus on helping our partners. Wouldn't it be a bit more beneficial for Nage (Tori) if when he is at a certain level to be attacked with more realism than a non- yudansha would be?

It seems to me that, if you are a Yudansha, you would not want to be attacked with one (tsuki) but rather a combination of attacks.

I spend a lot of time watching videos (and training as well). I noticed that no-one really attacks with intent of attack, but rather knowing what's next and how to fall.

What I am trying to ask. is at what point does "Shomenuchi" or Yokomenuchi" really become realistic? Yes I know the Bunkai (Application) of the techniques. I am not a begginer, although I don't profess to be "the shihan". I am just saying. It seems like we should see more realism in attack from Uke as we progress in rank.

Even in randori, it would be nice to see some of the openings exploited a bit more. I have watched famous Shihan leave openinings in randori and out of respect (?) Uke just stands there waiting to be thrown.

What do you think?
Respect.
I always find it interesting to read threads like this. We do have combination attacks. Our 4th kyu syllabus contains plenty of simple combo attacks, for example.
As for openings, if someone leaves an opening, we'd be expected to give them a swift smack to point it out,

As for attacking with more intent, it's something that annoys me about aikido, and something I love about kendo. Nobody likes me being their uke for bokken-tori

andrew
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What does "ki rank " mean at Ki Society? Franco General 9 03-22-2007 10:34 AM
Rank-Aikido (pun intended) senshincenter General 88 11-21-2005 03:55 PM
Poll: Do you prefer your aikido rank tests announced (planned) or unannounced (surprise)? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 15 12-09-2004 05:19 PM
High-ranking Non-japanese Yudansha Kami General 86 11-09-2001 04:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:27 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate