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Old 08-30-2006, 06:47 AM   #51
Erick Mead
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Too true.

"All models are wrong -- some models are useful." George Fox.
Box, not Fox.
Well -- that would make it more useful, then ...

As a somewhat serendipitous slip on my part, let me also give George Fox the Quaker leader and pacifist due place among maxims applicable to budo:

"Be still and cool in thine own mind and spirit."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:08 AM   #52
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
I think this illustrates a major diffence between the two systems.
If in a very small and well defined setting, but I agree more or less. Buddhists often find it absurd that people do a lot of things the way they do, they just let them, until they figrue it out for themselves. Is the action following the sensation of absurdity really that critical?

michael.
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Old 09-10-2006, 06:03 AM   #53
ViciousCycle
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Ueshiba spoke of aikido in religious terms, just as Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke of civil rights in religious terms. Just as one doesn't need to subscribe to King's religion to work for civil rights, one needn't subscribe to Ueshiba's religion to practice aikido.

Ueshiba was a great practitioner of what it is to be human. Yet, the legends told about him can make him sound not so much human as superhuman -- teleporting around attackers, dodging the bullets of expert marksmen, able to defy death, etc. Creating legends is an ancient impulse, and yet the legends can obscure the real human being. The legends surrounding Ueshiba are often explained in 'spiritual' terms, but the strength of his spirit was seen not in superhuman feats but in human courage:
-> He developed a martial art dedicated to peace and to life at a time when all martial arts in Japan were supposed to be under the control of a war-hungry Axis-allied military. He may have spoken of his desire for peace in religious terms, but peace transcends all religious boundaries.
-> Drawing on his extensive experience of martial arts, he sifted through a lot of violent techniques to develop the techniques that can be used to make the opponent powerless. He may have spoken of these techniques in terms of the old fashioned term "chi". Chi is an abstract word that is never precisely defined. Whether or not chi has a real or metaphorical-only existence is beside the point. Many Japanese were becoming mechanized on the battlefield, using many mass-produced weapons (bullets, bombs, planes, etc.) to kill in mass numbers. To slow down and work at developing chi -- when chi is quite elusive -- was counter cultural.
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Old 09-10-2006, 02:00 PM   #54
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Depending on which form or style of Aikido you train in will determine whether or not you become "spiritual" or not. Let's not forget that the teacher of the founder of aikido was not the least bit "spiritual" and was a martial artist to be reckoned with! In other words he could kick ass! and so could Morihei Ueshiba!
I was personally brought up in the Catholic Faith but have come to reject it as being, for me, a load of mumbo jumbo...... If Jesus was the Son of God what does that make us? Sheep?..... Yet I still believe in a great "Universal Spirit" as such and that we either do benevolent or manevolent things. Its up for us to choose which is better by our own self conciousness. The hard practice of physical aikido only makes one more aware of your true potential and I think that's what Mr Ueshiba wanted us to find out...therefore coming to our own conclusions about our own spiritual awareness, that meaning both Body and Mind. My own conclusion is that one will never come close unless one trains hard for at least ten years and even then you are only just beginning to open the doors! All this non resistant stuff does nothing but to delude the mind that one has found their way until you come up against somebody who doesn't want to play... Then it's one hell of a shock!
Truth... When Young and Able Practice Hard and Reap the Rewards! When Old and not so Able Practise Soft to keep what you still have!
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:58 PM   #55
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Hi guys.

To the OP.

Keep in mind that if there is no 'spirit' and it is just the universe, and we evolved out of dirt, that dirt can have thoughts, shout, laugh,cry, jump for joy, and even do aikido.
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Old 09-14-2006, 03:40 PM   #56
Erick Mead
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Matthew Origer wrote:
Keep in mind that if there is no 'spirit' and it is just the universe, and we evolved out of dirt, that dirt can have thoughts, shout, laugh,cry, jump for joy, and even do aikido.
Maybe, but
Quote:
O-Sensei (ed. - Seiseki Abe) wrote:
"To command the forest of enemy blades arrayed before you
Know that the enemy's spirit/mind is your shield."

Rip away from your soul
The shabby rags it wears
Open the way to Heavens destiny
So let it shine!

Takemusu comes to be
Through Aiki with fire and
Water of the Holy Parent
The workings of this union are
The superlative beauty of the works of God.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-15-2006, 12:16 PM   #57
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Maybe, but
What does that mean?
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:12 PM   #58
Erick Mead
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Matthew Origer wrote:
Quote:
Maybe, but
What does that mean?
Perhaps, however ... ??

OR -- it just means what he said ... ??

More seriously, one can certainly say that all one need do is train in aikido to get the spiritual point (O-Sensei said that, too). BUT, to say that there is no spirit involved in the process is something else altogether and is not consistent with the Founder's teaching, whether technical or spiritual. There is much spookier stuff going on in the Universe that reductionists would rather not be bothered with, that cannot be ignored and that we are not well prepared to comprehend.

Spirituality is non-locality. Consciousness is more than just here -- it is elsewhere also and all of a piece -- so much ancient wisdom tells. Consciousness, so far, despite brave attempts, does not admit of reduction to mechanism. Turing's machines exist only in the liviing minds that define their threshold criteria. If Roger Penrose is right, then they probably always will be.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-15-2006, 05:24 PM   #59
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

I believe I can refine my spirit through the practice of aikido.
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:11 PM   #60
Erick Mead
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
I believe I can refine my spirit through the practice of aikido.
And thus have I achieved a moderate advance over on my ancestors' refining of their spirit in a still ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:43 AM   #61
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Might be a placebo thing but I'm finding a lot of the "tricks" (For lack of a MUCH better word, maybe concepts or ideas are more appropiate) I've learned and read about in Aikido are really helping me deal with stress, other people and some very crappy situations.

Aikido takes a lot of flak i've found because to moany people it is/can be about a lot more than just learning how to fight (defend yourself). People hear that and automatically ridicule it. If I would have heard the same a few years ago I would have called BS, now not so much.

Whether this stuff really works or it's just in my head, I'm enjoying the results.

If your skeptical about it no one is going to be able to prove it to you, it's up to you to choose to believe it or not.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 10-03-2006, 02:03 PM   #62
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Perhaps, however ... ??

OR -- it just means what he said ... ??
I mean the poem he is quoting. he doesn't seem to have any clear point.
Quote:
Spirituality is non-locality. Consciousness is more than just here -- it is elsewhere also and all of a piece -- so much ancient wisdom tells. Consciousness, so far, despite brave attempts, does not admit of reduction to mechanism. Turing's machines exist only in the liviing minds that define their threshold criteria. If Roger Penrose is right, then they probably always will be.
Sorry dude, you lost me. Too esoteric.
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:33 AM   #63
ksy
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Might be a placebo thing but I'm finding a lot of the "tricks" (For lack of a MUCH better word, maybe concepts or ideas are more appropiate) I've learned and read about in Aikido are really helping me deal with stress, other people and some very crappy situations.

Aikido takes a lot of flak i've found because to moany people it is/can be about a lot more than just learning how to fight (defend yourself). People hear that and automatically ridicule it. If I would have heard the same a few years ago I would have called BS, now not so much.

Whether this stuff really works or it's just in my head, I'm enjoying the results.

If your skeptical about it no one is going to be able to prove it to you, it's up to you to choose to believe it or not.

hey Grant, something happened to me yesterday so what you said really strikes a chord. I began taking aikido a while back and by nature i'm quite a confrontational person. I like the martial side of aikido but the spiritual side drew me in as well. It seemed like a peaceful "art" which i needed to balance my more aggresive side. That's why i choose aikido otherwise i would have done some more "macho" MA like karate or tkd.

Anyway, just yesterday i had a "discussion" with my significant other, the subject of which would have in the past resulted in furious shouting matches with my girlfriend coupled with hurt emotions. In a similar environment this time, i recognized that i was slightly on edge and about to "strike" (verbally in this context, or at least come out with a aggresive defensive statement) and tis time consciously, as in my aikido training, lowered my weight and concentrated on my center. I know i'm a newbie so all this could just be my imagination but whereas in the past, voices would have been raised and my girlfriend would have ended up crying in one corner and me feeling crap despite "winning" the argument, this time both of us were laughing after a minute.

And the thing is i stated my stand and didn't utter any "resign,give-in" statements. What i said kind of just blended-in (cliche yes, for lack of a better word). I hope its not a one-off cause it was a good feeling not hurting someone, which i so often did under similar conditions. Also, since taking up aikido i've been able to talk to my dad a lot better. we never did before.

Some people who read this might think it's crap but i feel spiritually and mentally, aikido has opened up other options for me. I still have a bit of a "trouble maker" in me, and sometimes still feel like kicking ass (steven seagal style) but i'm glad i didn't lose my head yesterday.

Like i said, i'm just a newbie but my only regret in aikido is not taking it sooner. Now i'm planning to see if my technique can follow my spirit (while i refine my spirit).

And like you, whether this stuff really works or not, i'm enjoying the results. cheers, man.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:20 PM   #64
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

I think it depends on how you define "it really works!"

It works for me martially and spiritually.

Although it is not complete in and of it's self, it is a practice on the path, but not complete, much more goes into life martially and spritually to make something complete.

I think most people tend to look at empty handed arts the wrong way, and with very limited definitions of "it works", and what the reasons for studying the arts are for.
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:31 PM   #65
Erick Mead
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Matthew Origer wrote:
I mean the poem he is quoting. he doesn't seem to have any clear point.
it's ... a .... poem !
Quote:
Matthew Origer wrote:
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Spirituality is non-locality. Consciousness is more than just here -- it is elsewhere also and all of a piece -- so much ancient wisdom tells. Consciousness, so far, despite brave attempts, does not admit of reduction to mechanism. Turing's machines exist only in the liviing minds that define their threshold criteria. If Roger Penrose is right, then they probably always will be.
Sorry dude, you lost me. Too esoteric.
Let's make it more exoteric, then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-locality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:24 PM   #66
mut
 
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Juan De La Cruz wrote:
I love the techniques

I love the subtlety of aiki

I love the art

I live by the philosophy

I just cannot get into the spiritual side of it. I dont believe in the kami and/or the gods of war. Dragons and spirits are things that I read in mythology and they all remain in the book after I read them. The universe to me consist of galaxies, interstellar dust clouds, planets, cosmic rays, space debris, comets, moons, etc. The universe to me does not have any consciousness.

I believe in ki as intention. I cannot measure ki as energy. Ironically I sort of believe in ki. Maybe I am just running on faith on this one.

As an aikidoka do we also have to embrace the almost religious aspect of our beloved art. Because like my teachers and my classmates I am a sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido. Because so far my aikido remained the same even though I haven't communucated with any Kami
aikido does not have a religious side, spiritual and religion are different , aikido is there to refine the spirit, as well as the mind and body, you do not need a religious control system for this,
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Old 10-13-2006, 03:09 AM   #67
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

There were a lot of good posts in here and I tried to get through them all before I posted, but forgive me if I repeat something already said.

Spiritual can also just mean 'of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit', so what if we look at other definitions of spirit and see if that makes it work better for you.

Spirit:
  • the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness>
  • an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind
  • a special attitude or frame of mind
  • the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <school spirit>
  • general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>

Plus others... so for me the 'Spirit of Aikido' is what I see here on Aikiweb every day, people encouraging others, discussing topics, giving advice, asking questions etc. etc. basically aiming to better themselves and helping others if they can in a spirit of harmony (mostly ).

Cheers
Gavin
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Old 10-14-2006, 12:16 PM   #68
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Juan De La Cruz wrote:
I love the techniques
I love the subtlety of aiki
I love the art
I live by the philosophy
I just cannot get into the spiritual side of it. I dont believe in the kami and/or the gods of war. Dragons and spirits are things that I read in mythology and they all remain in the book after I read them. The universe to me consist of galaxies, interstellar dust clouds, planets, cosmic rays, space debris, comets, moons, etc. The universe to me does not have any consciousness.
I believe in ki as intention. I cannot measure ki as energy. Ironically I sort of believe in ki. Maybe I am just running on faith on this one.
As an aikidoka do we also have to embrace the almost religious aspect of our beloved art. Because like my teachers and my classmates I am a sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido. Because so far my aikido remained the same even though I haven't communucated with any Kami
With Kami or not, understand Aikido is a true dilemma!
If god exists, probably he doesn't resolve your believer problem (science, religion, gods or something).
Question: To believe or not?
Maybe is a false question...

Heisenberg (or Einstein, I'm not sure) said:
"Theory is when one knows everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but nobody knows why..."

Jean-Marc
____________

"Tu as le droit ŕ l'action, mais seulement ŕ l'action, et jamais ŕ ces fruits; que les fruits de tes actions ne soient point ton mobile; et pourtant ne permets en toi aucun attachement ŕ l'inaction. Bh G"
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Old 10-14-2006, 05:09 PM   #69
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Re: sceptic on the spiritual side of aikido

Quote:
Jean-Marc Duclos wrote:

Heisenberg (or Einstein, I'm not sure) said:
"Theory is when one knows everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but nobody knows why..."
I like that very much.
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