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Old 08-28-2006, 11:21 AM   #51
Janet Rosen
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Re: Bad knees

Peter G, you may well be right re the mat surface being a factor.
I would also add that there is a big difference between sitting zazen (static and relaxed, albeit w/ knees flexed) and doing dynamic suwariwaza aikido.
Add in the Western factor: those doing suwariwaza have not spent a lifetime kneeling--so we westerners go in one easy lesson from "here's how to sit in seiza" to trying to do martial arts techniques on our knees-- techniques and moves that we have poor body mechanics at when we do them STANDING for crying out loud, much less grinding and torquing hyperflexed knees into the ground. Tis no wonder we suffer.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:44 PM   #52
Upyu
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Re: Bad knees

Just curious, how many people in Aikido keep an arch of tension running along the inside of their legs?
The chinese call it the "dang" which props up the spine, but it also keeps the knees in alignment.
The chinese do NOT have a copyright on it btw, since it's pretty inherent in japanese arts as well.
Most kids used to practice Shiko stamping and other traditional japanese methods of strengthening/bulding balance awareness.

If you don't have this skill, you're more liable to use other means to try and generate power, especially to the detriment of your joints.
Just my two cents.

Oh, anyone here ever try using a suburito that weighs more than say, 3kg? You can't swing that "#$"er torquing your body, otherwise you'd probably pull something.
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:58 PM   #53
ChrisMoses
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Re: Bad knees

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Just curious, how many people in Aikido keep an arch of tension running along the inside of their legs?
[snip]

Oh, anyone here ever try using a suburito that weighs more than say, 3kg? You can't swing that "#$"er torquing your body, otherwise you'd probably pull something.
Yes and yes. My usual suburito weighs about 4 lbs, but we also use solid stainless steel 'jo' for suburi/ kata exercises. Those weigh just over 12 lbs and are an amazing source of feedback for your movents.

Definitely hoping we can trade some notes in October when I'm in Tokyo...
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:08 PM   #54
shadowedge
 
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Re: Bad knees

topic insert:

A good friend of mine is a medical representative for a company that sells a product specifically aimed at joint, bone and muscle problems.

We talked about this thread since the knee problem worries me as well. She took the opinion of the various orthopedic doctors she works with and this is what they had to say:

it is inevitable in ANY martial art or sport to injure certain parts of the body. whether lost tooth, muscle spasm or muscle aches or bone & joint damage- they are all inevitable and it could happen to anyone..

all our joints are prone to wear & tear just like car parts as we grow older, so its best to take care of them. proper exercise & a good martial art could actually strengthen our bones & prolong our lives.

curatives:should any minor injury happen, it is best to rest the affected area by taking a break from aikido for weeks, put ice on the inflamed area, compress it with a bandage & elevate it..& take pain killers. but for major accidents, see your orthopedic surgeon right away.

for prevention, really stretch before & after aikido.

Essentially thats their standpiont on this.

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Old 08-30-2006, 11:18 AM   #55
Janet Rosen
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Re: Bad knees

Quote:
Rene Vencer, Jr wrote:
for prevention, really stretch before & after aikido.
Stretching before is less necessary than warmup before. More people than not seem to confuse and combine the two.

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:58 PM   #56
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Bad knees

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
Stretching before is less necessary than warmup before. More people than not seem to confuse and combine the two.
You are preaching my sermon. I didn't feel like getting into it, so I passed. Actually, not only is passive, static stretching not a warmup - it has not been show to prevent injury - there is a chance it can cause injury if done improperly or excessively. The way most people stretch with forceful, passive stretches can tear muscle fibers. I have also seen studies that show this kind of stretching actually results in decreased strength performance afterward compared to not stretching at all.

Dynamic stretching, on the other hand, is a different story. Dynamic stretching is somewhat 'ballistic' where there is a sort of rubber-band bounceback effect at the end of the motion range. If done properly, it can help prepare the muscles for the coming activity, and is especially useful if the muscles will be doing something like this in the activity - like sprinting or throwing. As one might expect, the dynamic stretches need to be movement specific, and done more gently than whatever will be happening to them during the training. Ballistic stretching done incorrectly, on the other hand, is likely to cause injury. I do several types of leg and arm swinging dynamic stretches before most exercise.
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Old 08-30-2006, 02:44 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Bad knees

I knew I could rely on you Kevin :-) thank you

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:43 AM   #58
Nikopol
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Re: Bad knees

http://www.beinghealthynaturally.com...hritispain.htm

this has some good ways to speed up your cartilage recovery.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:29 AM   #59
John Matsushima
 
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Re: Bad knees

In my experience, it is not the suwari waza practice itself that causes knee injury, but improper form. When doing shikko if one bounces or improperly shifts his weight while moving then extra force is placed on the knees. I have never used kneepads, but found that practice with a hakama is MUCH easier because it allows me to slide as my knees rotate.
Having said that, I have also experienced a knee injury, but I believe it was due to a different reason. There are many instances, such as in ikkyo, when uke is not allowed the luxury of ukemi, that he is forced to go crashing to the floor, sometimes on his knees. Also, in the traditional method of ushiro ukemi where one is taught to collapse the leg, this often causes the knee of the collapsed leg to hit the ground. Usually, this is not very painful, but one week after receiving ikkyo ura I noticed some pain, and then I couldn't do shikko for a week. Since then I have made variations to my ukemi so that I use my ankles more and avoid hitting my knees on the mat. Since then, no problems.
It was also mentioned in this thread about injuries to other joints. Again, I believe this to be due to improper form ( on part of nage ). Kote gaeshi's that twist the hand away instead of back toward uke I think causes damage to the wrist. Also, using force in techniques such as ikkyo can cause damage to a resisting uke.
Attention to detail in form and practice is important to avoiding injury.

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:20 PM   #60
Janet Rosen
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Re: Bad knees

Quote:
Vincent Nikopol wrote: View Post
http://www.beinghealthynaturally.com...hritispain.htm
this has some good ways to speed up your cartilage recovery.
#1 : gelatin is an incomplete protein; ie, it does not have all the essential amino acids a human needs/in the right proportion. Further, and way more importantly: when you eat or drink a substance, the digestive tract and the bloodstream do NOT say "oh, it comes FROM cartilage, so I have to send it TO cartilage." A nutrient may play a particular role (say, a B vitamin acting on the neuro system, vit C acting on the capillary walls), but fats, carbohydrates and proteins don't go running to specific body sites to "fix them."
#2: "Cartilage recovery" is an issue for the subset of aikidoka w/ osteoarthritis. Glucosamine and the like HAVE been promising in this regard for some people - certainly w/ pain relief if not w/ recovery - and there are some injections in early use/very expensive that are looking promising for getting some regrowth. But pretty much, as of late 2007 and for most of us, once its gone its gone and all we can do is try to mitigate the damage and prevent it from proceeding at a worse pace.

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:30 PM   #61
Pierre Kewcharoen
 
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Re: Bad knees

I have bad knees since I was 24 from playing soccer. glucosamine/chondroiten supplements help as well as going to a gym and strengthening/rehabbing the joints.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:48 AM   #62
xuzen
 
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Re: Bad knees

All of you are wrong wrong wrong....

Being Biped and having Gravity gives you bad knees. Period.

'Em BJJ' er are smart... they play their game lying down most of the time and spread the load over a larger surface are. The Gracie... smart people.

Boon.

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