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Old 08-19-2006, 09:34 PM   #1
kokyu
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Kuzushi for kaiten nage

We have been focusing on kaiten nage a bit and the problem of effective kuzushi has surfaced. My question is directed towards kaiten nage from the strikes - shomen, tsuki and yokomen.

Shomenuchi
When uke strikes shomenuchi, is the downward cut on his arm enough to make uke bend downwards? Some ukes are very stable after striking, even after following through, so it feels like one is forcing uke to bend forwards. I'm not sure if it's due to the:
(1) position of cutting - cutting on his wrist rather than the elbow gives more leverage
(2) timing - need to catch his cut and 'add' to it
(3) timing2 - need to cut his arm and head simultaneously

I'm trying to gently guide uke's wrist slightly forward before cutting to encourage him to stumble forward... but this doesn't seem to be working

Tsuki
Even more difficult than shomenuchi because uke's strike is horizontal, but one is trying to guide it downwards

Yokomenuchi
Surprisingly, this feels easier, because the initial movement is similar to ikkyo, so one can 'encourage' uke to stumble backwards before moving into kaiten

Would be grateful for people's advice on my thoughts...
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Old 08-20-2006, 05:23 PM   #2
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Kuzushi is done in the third point of triangle. Other two points are feets of attacker.This is principle for all techniques, valid also for kaitennage.
So you must find a lock that will allow you to lead attacker to this point.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 08-20-2006, 05:57 PM   #3
Brad Pruitt
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

My understanding of this is that once you enter irimi the forward foot along with the foreward hand move together all the while dropping your center. I always believed that dropping your center had as much to do with the technique as any thing else.
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Old 08-20-2006, 06:06 PM   #4
Aristeia
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

I definately tend to cut at the elbow rather than the wrist. The wrist is at the end of the lever but without control of the rest of the arm the elbow can be used to compensate for movement at the wrist.

There's a couple of ways you can do this. There's the long version where you can tenkan and underhook the arm to turn them around as you then step under the arm for sankyo or kaiten nage.
For the more direct version (which it sounds like is what you're talking about) the breakthrough for me came when I was told to cut not with tegatana or knife edge as with say irimi nage, but to place the back of your hand on the elbow. This results in more of a cut outward on the arm than downward which facilitates kaiten nage much better.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-20-2006, 06:34 PM   #5
raul rodrigo
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Like Michael, I cut at the elbow, not the wrist, using the back of my leading hand and dropping my center at the same time. Its something I picked up from Sugawara of Hombu Dojo. Its very difficult to cut the head and the arm at the same time, so I dont try. I usually cut against one or the other, and then uke will fall into position.

Against ukes who are hard to unbalance using the arm, my sempai has a version where his cut is agains the head and the back of the other hand is placed against uke's elbow basically to keep track of him and to have it there waiting for when uke lurches forward. The power comes from the tentai and the cut done simultaneously.
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:09 AM   #6
kokyu
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Thanks for the great advice

I'm going to try using the back of my hand for irimi nage as well, just to feel the difference.

Raul, I attended quite a few of Sugawara Sensei's classes (both on Saturday and Monday). Must have missed that detail you pointed out

I'm guessing you meant the power comes from the 'tenkai' and not 'tentai'?
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:41 AM   #7
raul rodrigo
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Well, he was quite explicit about it, so it was hard to miss. At a seminar in Manila last year, Sugawara was unhappy that we were all hacking at the uke with the tegatana on the uke's elbow. So he stepped in and kept saying that we had to do it softly no matter how hard uke attacks. And the hand, palm up, had to be very relaxed although alive; your center is what drops, the back of your hand simply transmits the "dropping" to uke. This version of the kaiten kuzushi seems to have affinities with the movement of Yamaguchi shihan and Yasuno shihan. They both like [liked, in the late Yamaguchi's case] to unbalance the uke by dropping the hand in a palm up position, as opposed to the more orthodox tegatana style.

It is possible to do something similar with irimi nage—the same palm-up position as you stand behind him in irimi position. But the point of contact should be the elbow or higher. If its just the wrist, uke can turn to face you. I get my best results when I enter so deeply that my entire arm and even my shoulder are over uke's shoulder and arm. At that point, we are bound so closely that even a very light movement from me will send him flying.
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:52 AM   #8
Amir Krause
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote:
We have been focusing on kaiten nage a bit and the problem of effective kuzushi has surfaced. My question is directed towards kaiten nage from the strikes - shomen, tsuki and yokomen.

Shomenuchi
When uke strikes shomenuchi, is the downward cut on his arm enough to make uke bend downwards? Some ukes are very stable after striking, even after following through, so it feels like one is forcing uke to bend forwards. I'm not sure if it's due to the:
(1) position of cutting - cutting on his wrist rather than the elbow gives more leverage
(2) timing - need to catch his cut and 'add' to it
(3) timing2 - need to cut his arm and head simultaneously

I'm trying to gently guide uke's wrist slightly forward before cutting to encourage him to stumble forward... but this doesn't seem to be working

Tsuki
Even more difficult than shomenuchi because uke's strike is horizontal, but one is trying to guide it downwards

Yokomenuchi
Surprisingly, this feels easier, because the initial movement is similar to ikkyo, so one can 'encourage' uke to stumble backwards before moving into kaiten

Would be grateful for people's advice on my thoughts...
Actually, I think you raised all the points yourself.

One part of the problem that concerns point 3 is that most people are not willing to strike the head for the Kuzushi, which is understandable in training circumstances (the place being hit is very vulnerable). A cut of the arm only (preferably around the wrist) is not sufficient when Uke is more fluid and soft in his attack.
Uke should be good enough to realize your intention to hit him with your cut to the head and respond to this cut - creating one part of the Kuzushi.

Amir
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:45 AM   #9
markwalsh
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

I find kuzushi from katate dori the hardest as static. Also some schools break up (float) down (as per sumi otoshi).
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:59 AM   #10
ian
 
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

When you do bokken cutting (paired practise) and you hold down someone elses bokken, that is drawing the person forward slightly (so you can end with a throat cut). It is the same feeling, with your hips sinking slightly. Timing has to be correct - it is a continuation of the strike a fraction (and note necessarily hard), just to ensure that they are slightly outside their 'circle of power' as Ueshiba might have said. This actually works better with stronger attacks because the body is locked to transfer power and the moment of impact (thus tipping the arm tips their centre as well). With floppy attacks the hands just gets brushed down.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:06 AM   #11
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
I find kuzushi from katate dori the hardest as static. Also some schools break up (float) down (as per sumi otoshi).
I find that kaitennage is hard for many people because the tai sabaki is visually deceptive especially in ki no nagare (flowing) practice. Many times it is performed with this big tai no henko, a floor sweeping cut as you step-turn irimi and then come up for the irimi throw. Many do teach kaitennage as flowing from the beginning, and it is meant to be flowing in its actual application.

There is, however, a kihon underlying all that that may help some people to get it sooner early on. I find the following description of one of the kihon waza variations is sometimes more helpful to understand initially. If your instructors say different -- do what they say, for the love of Pete. They can see you. I can't.

For those unfamiliar with turn terminology -- the soto (outside) turn opens the book -- uchi (inside) turn closes the book. The covers (uke/ nage) are opening from a hinge at the point of connection in the soto turn -- the uchi turn is where the covers are closing on one another from the connection hinge. "Inside" turn and "outside" turn can be a ltittle difficult to see as such in actual practice.

Kaitennage can be done with only little tenkan hip turns and minimal foot movement. These illustrate the basic complexity of the technique that is only a barely perceptible (but critical) set of burbles in the more flowing version. I find students tend to get caught up in the hands and feet and for this reason concentration on more basic (irimi/tenkan) body movement (tai-sabaki) is helpful -- as is figuring out how you would perform the movement with a sword.

Attack is katatedori. Emphasis must be placed on performing the movement at full arm extension throughout (no "arm-pumping").

First, step in to the ura side with an irimi tenkan (soto) but do not put the foot back as in tai no henko. (i.e. --if he stepped in on the left foot you are now facing the same way with your left foot also forward and weight on your rear leg.) Kokyu for the leading (low) hand is rotating in and down, initially, (as for tenchinage). Kuzushi should occur if you have extended through his grab in the turn.

Second, another tenkan (uchi) -- without moving the feet, open the hips toward him (heel pivot) and move as though in a sweeping gedan or do sword cut with the gripped hand to the legs or belly, raising the (free) left hand (as in tenchinage), and address his center to your front. (If you irimi on the high hand side at this point it IS tenchinage.)

Third, entering slightly with the hips setting the weight on the forward leg (but without stepping) cutting the back of the neck yokomenuchi with the high hand, finish cutting the gedan sweep of the gripped hand -- turn the hips tenkan (soto) as you are cutting as you would in a pivoting draw cut shifting weight again to the back leg, again opening the hips strongly (heel pivot), -- reverse the high/low position of the hands as both cuts are completed -- allowing the direct irimi step across his front for the throw.

If you visualize holding an O-dachi with its tsuka the length of the distance between nage's hand on uke's neck and nage's extended arm holding uke's arm across his back, you can see the cutting position in the tai-jutsu You can see it even more dramatically if you perform the finishing move by continuing the cut of the head with full extension on the uke's braced arm, shuffle step to the same hanmi as the throw but then drop first to the knee near the head, straight down (not backing up or going forward ) and then the other knee to the suwari pin between your knees. Please do this VERRRY slowy for uke's sake.

Thus, in this kaitnennage variation, the tai sabakai sequence is:
irimi ura, tenkan soto, tenkan uchi, tenkan soto, irimi omote.

Visualize (or get a bokken and try it) beginning with his hand gripping your right sword hand on the inside, sword open to the right. (For those that have done Saotome's bukiwaza this basically uchitachi's finishing position in kumitachi 1-4)

The initial irimi and tenkan soto turn cuts the belly laterally, right to left (as nage/shitachi views it).

The kokyu turn of the hand down and in after you turn opens the blade in reverse to cut the belly or legs on the return tenkan uchi -- cutting laterally or underneath, left to right.

The reversal of the hands, top and bottom, in the soto turn allows uke's head to be cut down in kuzushi and the sword to come up and over cutting to take the head in the final irimi cut.

If you try this with the bokken and use the tai-sabaki described you will make some better sense of the tai-jutsu. Trying to learn it in flowing mode to begin with can be frustrating for many people, and they may not recognize the crucial changes in the body movement that are obscured in ki no nagare practice. Varying the order and direction of the turns and entries allows tai sabaki variations (at least sixteen) and the movements are often so implicit in ki no nagare you may not notice them until much later on. (I know I didn't.)

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-21-2006 at 10:13 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:11 AM   #12
Eric Webber
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Re: Kuzushi for kaiten nage

I have always found kuzushi in kaiten most difficult. I recently found that when my partner attacks and I move to a better position (using irimi tenkan) and my partner counters my postion change with a tackle move, I can more easily achieve kuzushi and am in a natural postion for the kaiten nage, rather than having to force him/her there. So we have been working on the partner setting himself up for a kaiten by counter attacking in a specific way, and having nage not try to get the kaiten, but rather use it only when appropriate. I do not like having to force a particular technique when there are better options available. Just my opinion and approach for the moment.
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