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Old 08-19-2006, 06:27 PM   #1
Nick Pagnucco
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conditioning routines

Just because aikido doesn't use brute strength to power its techniques doesn't mean there is no physical element to aikido. I was curious what people here do for the physical conditioning element of aikido. Gym work, cardio work, 'ki' work, how much you do aiki taiso outside of class, etc... What do you think is good training for aikido and why?
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Old 08-20-2006, 05:47 PM   #2
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: conditioning routines

Check out Robert John's two threads on body conditioning and the exercises for it. That's the stuff you should be doing to (or one of the variations on a common theme) to get the "not brute force" strength you need.
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Old 08-20-2006, 07:33 PM   #3
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: conditioning routines

More strength, properly acquired, will never hinder you. The idea that muscling up will slow you down or screw you up somehow is a fallacy. Olympic Weightlifters are blindingly fast. NBA basketball players lift a lot, have huge muscles and are far quicker and more agile than most martial artists. If you are stronger, it makes using less force even easier. Duh.

I think the misconception arises because sometimes you'll find a musclehead type who seems extraordinarily rigid. This is because he has the habit of holding tension in opposed muscle groups and has not yet learned how to move properly for Aikido. You need to stabilize joints by holding opposed tension in joints while you are lifting weight or doing bodyweight strength exercises, but there is no reason you can't learn to use your muscles differently as well while doing another activity like Aikido.

I would say the best supplement to Aikido is basic weight training. Just a few big movements to build muscular strength, good movement patterns, and toughen up joints and bones. I do a simple routine of overhead presses, pullups, dips, squats, and a stiff leg deadlift exercise for active hip flexibility. I also do basic yoga asanas to round things out, which is incidentally all about stability and static or quasi-static tension - funny how you never hear people blame yoga for stiffness or brute force.

Endurance elements of fitness are also important, but more minor, as the goal is simply to make you more comfortable with the exertion level of taking classes. The two main categories that apply to Aikido are continuous aerobic exercise for getting you through class, and intense interval training, to get you through randori and tests.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:13 PM   #4
Upyu
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Re: conditioning routines

Nice points Kevin, I don't necessairly agree with the solutions you provided, but I would agree with the observations that you made. Especially these:


a) I agree that strength is important. However the examples you brought up regarding athletic strength, namely "explosive" strength are far from what you want in a bujustu oriented body.
I roll with Judo and submission kids that have the explosive speed you describe, but they still have a hard time controlling their body, since the muscles tend to work independently of each other, for lack of a better term. On the other hand I tend to be hard to "roll" with, since I lack the same "kind" of explosive speed. It's the whole body moving at one speed, so I can get away with moving 1/4 their speed and still being able to handle them. Allows me to conserve energy and control them and myself at the same time. This doesn't mean that the kids aren't relaxed. Far from it. But they still don't have the same kind of physical "skill" that you need for aiki and bujustu related movements I think.


b) Is more muscle bad? I agree with Kevin, it isn't bad. More is good if you know how to build the musculature in a proper way. I disagree with Kevin in that weight lifting is good. You need to know how to stabilize the body first, and weights essentially train your muscles to "contract" in order to stabilize when in contact with force.

A good way to check this is a "pushout" drill that I posted a while back. If ANY muscles "seize up" while trying to execute this exercise, then I'd say that whatever your training your doing might not be the most efficient. I haven't met a single person yet, even with years of training that could properly do this exercise at the first go.

Once you start to aquire a bujutsu based "bodyskill", then I think lifting weights is viable, but until then bodyweight should be the only thing someone should work with.

More-over, I think its a mistake to do weights as a seperate "curriculum" from Aikido. Any "bodyskill" you get from your strength training routine need to be able to be directly input into your bujustu training. Whatever that may be, aikido, karate etc etc.
Most muscle building routines that goes on is completely divorced from the practice you do in the dojo.

Nice comment on the opposing tension in the joints. Now if you could keep that tension there with your muscles being relaxed, and as you move...


c) The yoga asanas... that's basically "stillness" training, and the whole point to bujutsu training is to get your body to carry that exact same stability when you "move". Connections and all. Easier said than done. Ideally if you do the asanas properly with all connections engaged, it should be so tough that you'd be ready to fall over with just the basic sun saluation. I've met several yoga people who were good in their own right that "thought" they had it right, but after a couple of corrections, could barely hold their easier poses for more than 15 seconds.

FWIW

Btw, this post is by no means a diss towards Kevin, just thought I'd offer another a different perspective on the issue. Bujutsu solo training done properly shouldn't need any supplemental weight training whatsoever I think. Just check out Pix of Sagawa or even the Kongourikisi Zou (Golden Buddha Warrior Attendant Statue in Nara). None of those guys did weights as a sepearte curriculum.
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Old 08-20-2006, 09:50 PM   #5
paw
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
a) I agree that strength is important. However the examples you brought up regarding athletic strength, namely "explosive" strength are far from what you want in a bujustu oriented body.
...snip
But they still don't have the same kind of physical "skill" that you need for aiki and bujustu related movements I think.
It looks like you answered your own question insofar as it's a skill issue. I know a number of people, myself included, who cannot hit
a golf ball 200 yards. Not for lack of physical ability, but because of a lack of technical skill in swinging a golf club and hitting the golf ball (and in my case, getting the darn ball to fly in a straight line). Both physical attibutes and technical skill would need to be trained for success.


Quote:
Robert John wrote:
b) Is more muscle bad? I agree with Kevin, it isn't bad. More is good if you know how to build the musculature in a proper way. I disagree with Kevin in that weight lifting is good. You need to know how to stabilize the body first, and weights essentially train your muscles to "contract" in order to stabilize when in contact with force.
Weightlifting, especially the lifts Kevin is suggesting (multi-joint, full-body movements), is all about developing stablization within the body. The performance of Olympic weightlifters is very, very difficult to beat, not just in their own sport, but in other physical activities as well.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I haven't met a single person yet, even with years of training that could properly do this exercise at the first go.
Sounds like a skill issue. In the same token, I haven't seen anyone perform a flawless ikkyo their first time, despite having the physical attributes to do so.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Once you start to aquire a bujutsu based "bodyskill", then I think lifting weights is viable, but until then bodyweight should be the only thing someone should work with.
The body doesn't know weights, it only knows resistance. If the resisitance comes from bodyweight, free weights, clubbells, dumbbells, a sandbag, a stuck car, or an elastic cable, the body doesn't responded differently, as far as I know. Depending on a person's goals, any (or most likely all) of those options could and should be utilitized. And of course, changed and altered as the person adapts to them.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Any "bodyskill" you get from your strength training routine need to be able to be directly input into your bujustu training. Whatever that may be, aikido, karate etc etc.
Most muscle building routines that goes on is completely divorced from the practice you do in the dojo.
As Kevin alluded to, many conditioning routines that one would find in popular magazines are based on bodybuilding training methodology --- where the goal is not improved athletic performance, but rather muscle size. Any conditioning routine would have to be tailored for the needs of the activity and the capability of the individuals involved.


Looking back and re-reading my post, I think some of the discrepancy may come from what is a "good" training method versus a "better" or the "best" training method. So maybe drawing such lines isn't helpful in the general sense. Be that as it may, I think we can all agree that being "healthier" is very advantageous for aikido, if for no other reason that it will keep someone on the mat training.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-20-2006, 10:50 PM   #6
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Paul Watt wrote:
It looks like you answered your own question insofar as it's a skill issue. I know a number of people, myself included, who cannot hit
a golf ball 200 yards. Not for lack of physical ability, but because of a lack of technical skill in swinging a golf club and hitting the golf ball (and in my case, getting the darn ball to fly in a straight line). Both physical attibutes and technical skill would need to be trained for success.
Actually, the mechanics in bujutsu, particularly the line across the back, along with internal torque are directly applicable to that kind of movement

I know a person that was able to drive a golfball clean out of sight their 1st, 2nd try. The surrounding golfers were "???!". He couldn't hit it with accuracty exactly, (a technical issue like you said), but that kind of power generation should be inherent from weapons training


Quote:
Paul Watt wrote:
Sounds like a skill issue. In the same token, I haven't seen anyone perform a flawless ikkyo their first time, despite having the physical attributes to do so.
I know several kids that didn't know what Ikkyo was, but focused on bodyskill training. Showed them the "ikkyo" type movement and they were able to do it pretty much flawleslly the first time.

I do know one person that has no affiliation with me, who has mad body-skill and was able to do that particular exercise on the first go. If only because his body was developed in a particular way. That exercise isn't a "skill", so much as a barometer for how your body has been developed. If you can't do it, it means your body lacks that kind of "development".

Quote:
Paul Watt wrote:
The body doesn't know weights, it only knows resistance. If the resisitance comes from bodyweight, free weights, clubbells, dumbbells, a sandbag, a stuck car, or an elastic cable, the body doesn't responded differently, as far as I know.
Sure it does (I only say this because I've walked that path)
A weight isn't a human being. The ONLY reason these bodyskills are so effective are because humans are comprised of a skeleton that stands on two legs, a spine, arms, and is mostly water.
The difference has to be shown tho.
If the body didn't respond differently, I don't think there would be so much debate over the use of freeweights etc vs the more advanced Bodyskill (or kokyu ryoku if you want to label it that way)

So basically here's the breakdown,
so far we all agree that specialized training is needed to create more efficient movement in a bujutsu/martial context.
But so far most people only go so far as to break it up into three big generalizations.

Bodybuilding type training,
Athletic type,
"Kokyu-type"

Kokyu-type training doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't physically strenuous, and there is some overlap with weighttraining in terms of certain attributes which are developed. (see Mike's posts on the fascia being strengthened etc using weights). You can incorporate weights into Kokyu training, but doing weights doesn't mean you develop Kokyu bodyskill
Besides which the fact that most of the Judo/mma kids that come over to our class and tank during the basic developmental exercises means that all those athletic exercises aren't developing those physiological attributes of bujutsu type movement.
It's pretty cut and dry actually once you feel it.
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:15 PM   #7
Jess McDonald
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Re: conditioning routines

Train. If you don't lift weight, start. If you do, don't stop. Run. Swim. Drill. Over and over again. No physical training is bad just get out there and do it. I rather everyone push weight around then none at all. See you at the gym.
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:30 PM   #8
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Jess McDonald wrote:
No physical training is bad just get out there and do it. I rather everyone push weight around then none at all.
Then again, I'll drink to that
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:29 AM   #9
Abasan
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Re: conditioning routines

Robert, link please for your push out drill...

Btw, I find that cardio training from regular jogs on the eliptical machine good for me. But they seldom have the intensity of aikido in spurts. The problem is that when doing aikido, and you happen to be the fall guy, its the getting up from the ground again and again that tires you. Doing aikido unto others is like...no sweat... next!

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:28 AM   #10
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Besides which the fact that most of the Judo/mma kids that come over to our class and tank during the basic developmental exercises means that all those athletic exercises aren't developing those physiological attributes of bujutsu type movement.
I think this is a subject that needs a lot more scrutiny. I remember when I was transitioning from Aikido to Taiji and at the time I was competing and training in Triathlons and Marathons. I was fit enough that if I knocked on my thighs with my fist, it sounded like I was hitting wood. But I simply couldn't hold some positions for any length of time and I didn't know how to use my lower-body strength with any effectiveness. Some types of training simply make you generally fit in a cardiovascular way but don't give you any specific skills.... and I see this happening a lot among different martial artists. "Kokyu" strength is a focussed, trained body skill.... bicycle riding won't train it; only kokyu training will build it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:51 AM   #11
ian
 
ian's Avatar
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Re: conditioning routines

Good question. I've just changed our routines. I've begun to realise new students i. rarely know how to punch well (which causes misunderstanding about how aikido works) and ii. can be quite unfit. For the 1st semester we are doing self-defence with aikido. Pretty much this is what we are doing each session:

1. 3 minutes of striking on the focus mits (including combinations) - high intensity.
2. 3 minutes skipping.

this will lead up to 3 x 3 mins striking (with 1 min gap).


Also maybe every 2 weeks:
3. Some work on heavy bag (occasionally)
4. some blade hand/palm striking
5. lots and lots of bokken cutting


In addition we are doing 'scenario based sparring'. i.e. there is a real self-defence scenario played out, with people involved wearing appropriate body protection. The scenario doesn't necessarily have to end physically - indeed many are intended to be handled without force. It is much different from normal sparring since it is unpredictable from both uke and nages view point. However I'm also hoping it allows people to realise just how scrappy fights can be (there is no holding back - anything goes - we're getting full head and face and neck guards).

Personally, I've also started doing other exercises:
1. clean and press (I believe one of the best weight exercises for martial arts - it exercises back, chest, triceps, legs; all in coordination, and it is quite intense)
2. catching bricks with fingers (good for grip strength)
3. Chain punching (to build up speed - also useful short range technique)
4. Ivanco supergrip (a gripper which is the best on the market)
5. tai-chi (to warm-up and warm down from other exercises)

My view is that technical ability is harder to achieve than physical fitness - so if you are lacking in physical fitness, how will someone have the will power to get techically good?! Also physical ability makes up for a multitude of imperfections in real situations.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:55 AM   #12
David Racho
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Re: conditioning routines

You know, I've not known people to train in Aikido as an exercise, or rather purely for the conditioning. They sometimes say that, but it's usually just a part of the reason why they take up Aikido in the first place. My opinion is that more "brute" strength wouldn't hurt, and at least one Shihan has said it in passing "why not?" so it's a good idea to do functional weight lifting (more along the lines of power-lifting as opposed to body building) to actually get physically stronger.

If you can squat double your bodyweight, and do the other standard compound movement exercises (squat, bench, overhead press, chins, etc.) you'll perform better aikido.

Your technique may be good, but all other things being equal, the strong person may possibly have an advantage. Plus if your cardio endurance is good, you can train longer.

Boxer's already know how to punch. They mostly train to last 15 or more rounds. The recent UFC fight with Royce Gracie and Matt Hughes showed that even if Royce had 99% skill and Matt had 96% (or lower), but he had the overall better conditioning ... so, there.

Finally, if you look bigger, out in the street, people will be less likely to victimize you.

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:18 AM   #13
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
c) The yoga asanas... that's basically "stillness" training, and the whole point to bujutsu training is to get your body to carry that exact same stability when you "move". Connections and all. Easier said than done. Ideally if you do the asanas properly with all connections engaged, it should be so tough that you'd be ready to fall over with just the basic sun saluation. I've met several yoga people who were good in their own right that "thought" they had it right, but after a couple of corrections, could barely hold their easier poses for more than 15 seconds.
Robert,

Do you think that the yoga flows - done with the right emphasis on maintaining the internal connections - together with the asanas - done while maintaining the internal connections, the static contractions, and the breath - work toward the same kind of internal connection and conditioning you've written about in your posts?

What I am inferring from your commends about yoga is not that the practice does not contain this stuff, just that most practitioners don't pay attention to the right things.

It's hard as heck to go through a complete sun salutation while maintaining the internal "locks" and keeping the right contractions in place, all while breathing. I cannot do it -- but I am at least laying attention to it. I am curious as to how beneficial you think this is in tems of this kind of conditioning.

Chris
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:10 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: conditioning routines

I'm in the novice position (again) in yoga, and having trouble with all of the above. But it is interesting work, and seems to be one of the best ways I've experienced to get to "know your body".

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:32 PM   #15
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
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Re: conditioning routines

Robert,

I'm not going to dissect all of what you said, but I see a couple of problems. It's apparent that you don't understand the terminology or methodology of current science-based western athletic training. In particular, it seems you have a murky or idiosyncratic understanding of basic terms like skill, strength, power, speed-strength, etc...

Especially the principle of specificity. The virtues of this 'bodyskill' you describe sound like simply a matter of the fact that whatever exercises you are using to develop it are more similar to the activities to which they seem to apply. That's OK, but the purpose of the exercises I mentioned are more general in nature. The purpose of basic strength exercises is to strengthen muslces, bones, and tendons, develop basic stability and posture patterns in the whole body, provide strong anabolic hormonal stimulus to the body, and to develop efficiency in the short-term energy systems... not to develop skill, or specific movement patterns that are more trasferrable to certain movement skills. That can be added, if you wish and have time, but most Aikidoists probably don't, and would rather just develop more skill by doing more Aikido.

The problem with skipping general strengthening for some kind of skill/strength hybrid exercises is that you will not get the full benefits of general strength training. For instance, in terms of developing strength in all the connective tissues in the knees and lower back, bone density in the entire lower body, and anabolic hormonal stimulus, nothing compares to weighted squats. There is no decent unweighted substitute. Also, it's tough to find a better way to develop a good movent and postural habit for picking heavy things up correctly, which could save a lot of people from back injury.

Likewise, motor-neural qualities can be developed in a more general way with exercises like Olympic lifts. I assure you the power developed by this exercise isn't remotely 'disjointed', as most of the muscles in the body must work in concert to do it correctly. Moreover, the point of the exercise in most training isn't about the movement pattern anyway. The purpose of Oly lifts for supplemental training is to develop the chemical and neural elements of explosive power, which can then be applied to other actions.

Your example of being able to 'get away' with moving slower than someone else is irrelevant, as it is a citation of skill. If you had more explosive strength, you would be even better. If it was a competition, and your opponent had similar skill, that next step might well be necessary if you wanted to win... this is why virtually all serious athletes from the college level up do not eschew any of the types of training Paul and I have described in favor of specialized systems not grounded in the full spectrum of current scientific knowledge: unlike Aikido, where most people are more like hobbyists, and performance is not taken to the limit by competition, they can't afford to.

In any case, in my post, I cited basketball players and Olympic weightlifters as counterexamples to the idea that big muscles and lifting weights leads to being clunky or slow. I don't think many Aikidoists would really want to focus much on supplemental explosive training.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-21-2006 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:48 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If it was a competition, and your opponent had similar skill, that next step might well be necessary if you wanted to win... this is why virtually all serious athletes from the college level up do not eschew any of the types of training Paul and I have described in favor of specialized systems not grounded in the full spectrum of current scientific knowledge: unlike Aikido, where most people are more like hobbyists, and performance is not taken to the limit by competition, they can't afford to.
Without having met Rob personally, I can see what the point is that he's making because I'm aware of similar training methodologies. The first point I'd make is that no one is saying that "being in shape" is not a desireable quality in martial arts. The better shape you're in, the better off you'll be. The argument Rob is making is that there are some methods of training that are outside of normal western training methodologies. Your argument seems to be based on normal western training methodologies and since you're not aware of anything substantial outside of those methods, you're dismissing Rob's comments. That appears to be what it boils down to. Ultimately, it gets down to the "it has to be shown" scenario, once again.

I think I mentioned it once before, but some years ago I did an "in-service" presentation for the teaching faculty of the Medical University of Colorado. During the discussions and leading the participants up to the ability to mildly do a couple of the skills, several people mentioned that they'd never seen or heard of these types of skills before... it was new to them.

I think comments have been made by some people that the skills Rob is speaking about are something out of the ordinary; maybe it's best to just leave it at that, rather than start a spat that still can't be resolved without a personal meeting.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:39 PM   #17
Jeff Sodeman
Dojo: San Diego Jiai Aikido
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Re: conditioning routines

Not giving advice to anyone, just mentioning what I do... Pushups, pullups, crunches, and dips along with some running. Doesn't make me huge or ripped, but I'm strong, healthier, and rarely injured. Takes almost no equipment and I can do it in a few minutes after class.
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:01 PM   #18
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Robert,

I'm not going to dissect all of what you said, but I see a couple of problems. It's apparent that you don't understand the terminology or methodology of current science-based western athletic training. In particular, it seems you have a murky or idiosyncratic understanding of basic terms like skill, strength, power, speed-strength, etc...
Ok, without getting into a pissing contest here.
I respect what you said Kevin
Like Mike said, if you haven't experienced this kind of training, then it's hard to imagine the effects. The training I mentioned builds the body in a particular way. No amount of pylos, strength training etc, will result in a body that can function this way. So in a sense it has to be "built" this way through certain exercises.


Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Especially the principle of specificity. The virtues of this 'bodyskill' you describe sound like simply a matter of the fact that whatever exercises you are using to develop it are more similar to the activities to which they seem to apply.
That's not it either Althought that applies just a bit.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
The problem with skipping general strengthening for some kind of skill/strength hybrid exercises is that you will not get the full benefits of general strength training. For instance, in terms of developing strength in all the connective tissues in the knees and lower back, bone density in the entire lower body, and anabolic hormonal stimulus, nothing compares to weighted squats.

There is no decent unweighted substitute. Also, it's tough to find a better way to develop a good movent and postural habit for picking heavy things up correctly, which could save a lot of people from back injury.
Think of the stuff we do as an "advanced" version of the stuff you described, plus more (lots more). All in one exercise.
Like Mike said, until you experience it, I guess we'll have to leave it at the IHTBS (it has to be shown)


Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Your example of being able to 'get away' with moving slower than someone else is irrelevant, as it is a citation of skill. If you had more explosive strength, you would be even better. If it was a competition, and your opponent had similar skill, that next step might well be necessary if you wanted to win... this is why virtually all serious athletes from the college level up do not eschew any of the types of training Paul and I have described in favor of specialized systems not grounded in the full spectrum of current scientific knowledge: unlike Aikido, where most people are more like hobbyists, and performance is not taken to the limit by competition, they can't afford to.
Actually it's quite relevant since I work out with Judo/wrestlers turned MMA players here in Tokyo, many of whom have that "explosive" power you talk about. They even admit that up until now a) they'd never heard of this kind of training methedology, and b) the power generation is different and not something you could add to by developing pylometric/explosive power.


Broaden your horizons
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:06 PM   #19
Upyu
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Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Chris Guzik wrote:
Robert,

Do you think that the yoga flows - done with the right emphasis on maintaining the internal connections - together with the asanas - done while maintaining the internal connections, the static contractions, and the breath - work toward the same kind of internal connection and conditioning you've written about in your posts?

What I am inferring from your commends about yoga is not that the practice does not contain this stuff, just that most practitioners don't pay attention to the right things.

It's hard as heck to go through a complete sun salutation while maintaining the internal "locks" and keeping the right contractions in place, all while breathing. I cannot do it -- but I am at least laying attention to it. I am curious as to how beneficial you think this is in tems of this kind of conditioning.

Chris
Chris, short answer yes.
Long answer, no.
Since you have to be able to use those same postural requirements in "movement", you'll want to adapt them so that they mirror the general requirements of how the body moves in a "bujutsu" setting. Then you put in the internal "locks"/tensions etc first in a static position, then while moving. -> Tai chi does this.

There's quicker and easier ways to train this stuff.
Most of it is in rote weapons work (namely spearwork) which specifically develops the muscles in a certain way.

If you're curious what the results are, simply take a look at the "kongourikisizou" (Golden Buddha Warrior's Attendant Statue) at Koufukuji.
The musculature there is a dead giveaway for how you want to be training the body.
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:29 PM   #20
Jory Boling
 
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Re: conditioning routines

We tend to do a lot of ukemi in my dojo (and we always do a burnout set at the end of class) so I've taken to hitting some nearby stairs to try and condition my legs and heart. Even 10 sets of the 160 steps haven't matched 40 ukemi in rapid succession but it's helping (I guess it's time to move to the 240 step staircase).

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Old 08-21-2006, 04:43 PM   #21
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
...stuff...

Broaden your horizons
Sorry, I just don't buy it. I just don't believe that you've developed some kind of magic conditioning system that surpasses what has been developed by all the Olympic and professional level athletes and trainers over the last 50 years. "It has to be shown" is not a convincing argument, and in fact has been a tack of high pressure advertisers, cults and clubs throughout history. Lure them in and convert them by peer pressure, charisma, surprising demonstrations, etc... The only reason you are able to get away with the claims of your invented methods' superiority is because there is no objective competitve test to determine its usefullness to Aikido.

Can you point to anyone who uses your magic methods that has beaten anyone at any competitive level in anything? It seems like there must be some sport or other you could adapt it to, and when you did, if it blows away decades of collective effort by all the world's best athletes and trainers as you claim, there is a fortune waiting for you out there.

Seriously though, athletic performance is athletic performance. Aikido only differs from basketball, tennis, football, wrestling, etc... in that same way that any two athletic activities differ. It's clear to me from the things you've said that you haven't studied current science and methods of professional level athletic training near thoroughly enough to be dismissive of them. If you had a kinesiology degree and a decade of professional athletic training experience maybe... even then I'd see evidence of it in your writing, and you'd be able to articulate your objections to conventional methods much better. For instance, your attempted counterexample citing wrestler and bjjers demonstrates again that you don't even understand the basic concept of skill or any of the neurology and physiology behind it, why and how it differs from strength and power, and how they interact, etc... Your exhortation to broaden my horizons is high irony.

Good luck.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-21-2006 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 05:11 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Sorry, I just don't buy it. I just don't believe that you've developed some kind of magic conditioning system that surpasses what has been developed by all the Olympic and professional level athletes and trainers over the last 50 years.
I don't think Rob has made any claims to have "developed" anything. All I can see from his posts is that he uses some variant of a physical training system that is thousands of years and which took a long time to develop (much longer than 50 years) and which was so effective it became famous. In fact, it's a system that Ueshiba mentions quite a bit. What you're saying is more along the lines that you don't know what this system is and most western kinesiologists don't either. On top of that, you're saying that you don't use it in your Aikido, suggesting that you do Aikido without the cornerstone that Ueshiba, Tohei, Abe, et al used.
Quote:
Can you point to anyone who uses your magic methods that has beaten anyone at any competitive level in anything? It seems like there must be some sport or other you could adapt it to, and when you did, if it blows away decades of collective effort by all the world's best athletes and trainers as you claim, there is a fortune waiting for you out there.
Since it was famous as a secret training method for centuries and was used in combat (the main reason it was kept secret), the idea that it hasn't "beaten anyone at any competitive level" is pretty interesting. It's beaten a lot of people over the centuries. Has someone really skilled in it entered some decade-old, limited-trend sport interest in the West? No. It would be nice to watch, but because it hasn't happen on the TV doesn't logically imply it doesn't exist, AFAIK.
Quote:
Seriously though, athletic performance is athletic performance. Aikido only differs from basketball, tennis, football, wrestling, etc... in that same way that any two athletic activities differ. It's clear to me from the things you've said that you haven't studied current science and methods of professional level athletic training near thoroughly enough to be dismissive of them. If you had a kinesiology degree and a decade of professional athletic training experience maybe... even then I'd see evidence of it in your writing, and you'd be able to articulate your objections to conventional methods much better. For instance, your attempted counterexample citing wrestler and bjjers demonstrates again that you don't even understand the basic concept of skill or any of the neurology and physiology behind it, why and how it differs from strength and power, and how they interact, etc... Your exhortation to broaden my horizons is high irony.
Actually, I think Rob is simply saying there may be something out there that you don't know about, since he didn't know about it before Akuzawa started showing it to him. Me too... I didn't know about it. The physiology and kinesiology teachers at CU med school didn't know about it, either.... but they didn't reject it out of hand just because of that. They kept an open mind. Maybe you should get some sort of workshop with Rob and Akuzawa going so you can either say "See, I told ya" or "Hey, that's pretty interesting".

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-21-2006, 05:26 PM   #23
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: conditioning routines

The conditioning I do outside of the dojo is for the sole purpose of enabling me to train harder and longer in aikido. In other words, if I become winded in the dojo, I know I need to condition myself better.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:01 PM   #24
Upyu
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Seriously though, athletic performance is athletic performance. Aikido only differs from basketball, tennis, football, wrestling, etc... in that same way that any two athletic activities differ. It's clear to me from the things you've said that you haven't studied current science and methods of professional level athletic training near thoroughly enough to be dismissive of them.
Agreed. Athletic performance is simply atheletic performance.
But the fact that Ushiro Kenji can go and give advice to pro-athletes and immediately improve their game is indicative something is lacking I'd think.
None of this stuff is magic.
All of it is based in physics/phsyiology.

and maybe, just maybe it's western physiology/kinesisology that needs to play "catchup".

FWIW, I do think that this stuff has a lot to offer the sports world. Some parts are used in top level athletes, unconsciously, but I don't think there's a set system to train it directly.


Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
It seems like there must be some sport or other you could adapt it to, and when you did, if it blows away decades of collective effort by all the world's best athletes and trainers as you claim, there is a fortune waiting for you out there.
You read my mind
It's only been 2.5 years since he started teaching what he's learned. Honestly we're still at the very beginning. But he also knows the need to produce results having been a former internaltion sanda champion himself. Which is why I'm working with the MMA kids now, as well as Ark planning to open a more ring-oriented class to apply these body skills within the ring, and develop fighters of a higher caliber than you currently see.


Btw, this particular training method allowed me to walk into the Axis BJJ acadamy here in Tokyo (Rickson's sattelite school) and tap out blues with a fair amount of ease, despite the fact that I had less than 6 months judo experience 3 years ago in college. Also earned me several tapouts from some purples as well.

Btw, if we do hold a seminar, I'd love for you to drop by (free of charge)
Hooking up with someone with extensive experience in kinsiseology/current sports science is something I've been itching to do for a while now. Besides which the know how provided by the people in that field would only serve to improve the training system once they understand what is being trained, and how it's currently being trained. I'm all for progress


FWIW

Last edited by Upyu : 08-21-2006 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:56 PM   #25
paw
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Re: conditioning routines

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Btw, this particular training method allowed me to walk into the Axis BJJ acadamy here in Tokyo (Rickson's sattelite school) and tap out blues with a fair amount of ease, despite the fact that I had less than 6 months judo experience 3 years ago in college. Also earned me several tapouts from some purples as well.
Robert, I'm extremely disappointed in these remarks of yours, as it seems a lot like bragging at the expense of unnamed martial artists. In every dojo, academy or gym I've trained in, it was always clear that training is training. It is about polishing one's spirt and working cooperatively to improve the group, not improvement at the expense of others followed by their belittlement.

If someone were to post on this board that they threw a high ranking aikidoist when they had very little training in aikido, I would expect that person to be taken to task, and rightly so. In the future I would hope we --- as a community --- would grant the same treatment to other martial artists.

While I understand your motives to show that there's validity to your methodology, it's clear from your posts that you're an intelligent fellow and can make your points more diplomatically. Now if I'm off base, and you feel there's nothing wrong with your remarks, then I'll happily apologize for taking you to task, as it were.


Now then, speaking of methodology, perhaps if you could provide a link to the "push out" drill that was mentioned earlier to aid in understanding where you're coming from.


Regards,

Paul
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