Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2006, 08:45 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

and sutemi is the word for sacrifice techniques.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2006, 08:46 AM   #27
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
and sutemi is the word for sacrifice techniques.

Best,
Ron

Uke waza is the name of a specific sutemi in judo. A favorite of my aikido sensei.


R
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2006, 09:01 AM   #28
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Getting back on track... what Rob John said is spot on. Kokyu nage is just that... performing any nage waza using kokyu-ho. Whether they work or not depends on your level of ability to apply kokyu. In that respect, Sczepan is right. Get those jujitsu waza and kuzushi down pat first, then understand how to apply kokyu to any waza. Go back and search all those threads here on kokyu.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2006, 10:15 PM   #29
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
...developing "kokyu" power.

From my own experience I'm pretty sure that
[[snip]]
d) you can train the body directly to develop this skill within 2 years if you know how.
In my opinion you can teach someone to do kokyu power in a fairly short time. To build it up to where it is remarkably powerful and so that you can use some of the kokyu-power adjuncts (like "short power"), probably 2 years is a good number. All I'm saying is that like any other strength/skill, you can do a little bit and it slowly gets better/stronger over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2006, 10:48 PM   #30
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day.
I dont disagree with that ^^; Sagriligeous as it might sound.
Besides which, if the word "Kokyu Nage" is any hint, you have to have Kokyu power before you gain any benefit from this practice.
Though I know you weren't referring to that.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.
Any average guy will figure out how to resist locks aftter a couple of years. Try those "strong locks" on any submission guy and see how far it gets you
There's a point at which practicing that way simply develops bad habits. I remember a couple of Iwama guys that were rock solid in terms of conditioning over at Abe Sensei's place that couldn't hold me down, nor could they affect me during the drills(if I didnt want them to).

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?
Actually, I think there are shortcuts. I'd say the proof is in the making at some select schools

O sensei, Takeda, Sagawa, all of them spent years searching for ...what?

I don't think it was the execution of timing, speed or technique.

Personally I think they spent all the years finding out exactly how to develop that *power* or bodyskill. Actually, it's not "think" so much as I'm pretty positive of that fact. Sagawa spent 50+ years just perfecting the way he could correctly train his body. How much time was actually spent training his body correctly?? I'd say a fraction of that.

What's funny is that I haven't gone through the rote "technical" path, instead only training this body skill, and I still can perform most "waza" correctly. Not to mention resist waza from people that've been doing it for way more years than I have.

That being said, I don't think you're wrong in your thinking.
In the absence of knowing how to train body skill, then strenuous trial by error in a "martial" context is the next best thing really.
But if you want to go down that path, I think a lot of sports mma people have you beat
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2006, 03:52 AM   #31
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In my opinion you can teach someone to do kokyu power in a fairly short time. To build it up to where it is remarkably powerful and so that you can use some of the kokyu-power adjuncts (like "short power"), probably 2 years is a good number. All I'm saying is that like any other strength/skill, you can do a little bit and it slowly gets better/stronger over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike:

I assume that estimate is for 2 years with a good teacher. If one can't find a good internal power teacher in the vicinity, how long would it take with some good dvds and training on one's own? It is even possible to train on one's own in this thing?


R
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2006, 07:46 AM   #32
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
I assume that estimate is for 2 years with a good teacher. If one can't find a good internal power teacher in the vicinity, how long would it take with some good dvds and training on one's own? It is even possible to train on one's own in this thing?
The basics of getting started on kokyu and how to start the ki things is NOT that hard, but it usually takes someone to show you how, the first time or so. After that, someone can apply themselves, maybe get a few additional hints from a good DVD, etc., and work themselves up, IMO, to a reasonable level. The stumbling block is that first time or two, understanding the correct feel for doing something with jin/kokyu and using the middle to manipulate that power. So on the one hand, I'm encouraging; on the other hand, getting that first feel/understanding can be critical.

My 2 cents.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2006, 02:30 AM   #33
raul rodrigo
Location: Quezon City
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 777
Philippines
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So on the one hand, I'm encouraging; on the other hand, getting that first feel/understanding can be critical. Mike
Thanks for the input. Okay, I understand the risks you talk about, but I think I'm willing to take that bet. I mean, there should be some definable outer limit to how deluded I could be about kokyu--at least in the sense that, as I think you've said elsewhere in these forums, there are generally accepted empirical tests for the ability to generate kokyu. Its not like the fluffy aiki bunny generalizations about ki. Time to order some DVDs and I'll see how it goes.

best,

R
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2006, 09:39 PM   #34
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Any average guy will figure out how to resist locks aftter a couple of years. Try those "strong locks" on any submission guy and see how far it gets you
The point of practice the strong locks isn't competition, but to develop precise technique.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
There's a point at which practicing that way simply develops bad habits. I remember a couple of Iwama guys that were rock solid in terms of conditioning over at Abe Sensei's place that couldn't hold me down, nor could they affect me during the drills(if I didnt want them to).
Looks like you like competition very much. Why not to try sports? Why you must prove to others that you are far superior and 'they can't hold you down' while doing aikido?
I think you are heading in wrong direction, but I'm not your teacher of course.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Actually, I think there are shortcuts. I'd say the proof is in the making at some select schools

O sensei, Takeda, Sagawa, all of them spent years searching for ...what?
I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 04:03 AM   #35
Dirk Hanss
 
Dirk Hanss's Avatar
Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 471
Germany
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.
Hi Szczepan,
this time your words do sound less aggressive

I am not sure, if what I understand is what you are saying.

My opinion is that "if you can't do hard aikido, you can't do a soft version".

This reminds me to my sensei's comments.

"Do it more powerful" - so I do it powerful.
"Be relaxed" - so I do the technique relaxed.
"No I did not say weak - do it powerful, but stay relaxed!"
...
"No I said powerful, not brut force, stay relaxed, but use your power"
Sometimes he uses "ki" or "kokyu" phrases, but in principle it is the same.

The worst comments are "not bad, but.." or "A little bit better now"

They always sound like "you haven't understood anything yet".

I know it is true, but it is hard to hear it.

Why do I tell this?

There is no difference between hard and soft aikido, powerful or relaxed techniques. It is always both or nothing.

I have not understood much yet. But what is worse - for me as very head based mathematician: there is no way to understand it intellectually, if you do not understand it with your body. That is, why you have to do it on the mat. And the more I think, the less I learn.

Regards Dirk
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 08:50 AM   #36
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
The point of practice the strong locks isn't competition, but to develop precise technique.


Looks like you like competition very much. Why not to try sports? Why you must prove to others that you are far superior and 'they can't hold you down' while doing aikido?
I think you are heading in wrong direction, but I'm not your teacher of course.


I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Higher level training is usefull only to very skilled advanced half-aiki-gods. In my opinion you create yourself full of illusions if you think you can do shortcuts.Specialy if you incorporate some kind of strange 'competition-mind'.
Lol, it's not "competition" dude, just cold hard fact.
When I meet someone that's spent 15+ years doing "hard style" aikido, and they can't handle someone that's 15-20lb lighter than they are, and has only about 2.5 years of serious training, then sure I think I should be allowed to debate the "effectiveness" of training.
Then again, this stuff can only be shown hands on, I definitely think you'd get a lot out of dropping by, especially with your attitude (which actually I like, believe it or not)
If you're ever in Tokyo again PM me.

I used to think like you did.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 09:10 AM   #37
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

I don't think they reached their level by doing some 'body work'. They had a solid background on jj. This background is lacking in todays aikido.
Thought I'd just add that Sagawa pretty much said in his book "Clear Power" that the essence of his stuff came from the solo training. NOT the rote technical work.
In fact he was much harsher, and said people that were stuck in the JJ mindset were..uhh..for lack of a better term "lacking" in braincells.
Besides which Kimura only made any real progress after he got special solo training from Sagawa which he then did on a daily basis at home.

This is coming from one of the "demigods", not me dude

Just some food for thought
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 09:32 AM   #38
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Hi Neil, sorry I'm late on this post.
I'm not sure if you include Sokumen Irimi Nage as kokyu nage (side entering irimi nage)?

Anyway, we were doing some koshi nage a while ago (onto big soft mats) and I noticed it was far easier with less hip and more timing. I think kokyu-nage is the same in that the idea is to develop timing and coordination with uke. It can seem very artificial when uke is attacking again and again, but they can be effective if you get the timing correct and its not expected (I see this as a potential problem in aikido - we need to be able to attack hard as well, otherwise once you've thrown one person any attackers quickly get clued in to what you are doing and are more wary).

Sokumen irimi-nage is definately effective - I remember wrestling around with a ju-jitsu friend who tried to do a hip throw, and the blending with the movement just put me directly into sokumen irimi nage in a very powerful way.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 10:18 PM   #39
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
He buit up muscles and was very strong and used all his strength in his technique - until he grew older and realised, that he must go beyond strength and changed all his technique.
Following that line of thought, how did he "change" his technique from pure strength?

All the rote jiujitsu work does is give you a "physical" base to work from. That doesn't mean you can't directly develop what it is that all the "demigods" took years to develop.
It took them years to develop it simply because it took them years to figure out "how" to develop it, since most teachers weren't forthcoming on the "how"
But if you have the "how" then well... maybe you can surpass the "demigods".
They were only human you know
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2006, 10:22 PM   #40
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Sokumen irimi-nage is definately effective - I remember wrestling around with a ju-jitsu friend who tried to do a hip throw, and the blending with the movement just put me directly into sokumen irimi nage in a very powerful way.
Reminds me of an old saying: "Neutralizing an attack is often just going where they want to go just a little bit faster than they want to go".

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2006, 12:15 AM   #41
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote:
There are numerous kokyu nages. Are they actual techniques that would work in real life or are they drills for developing timing?

Many kokyu nages seem to rely on a willingness by Uke to fall. Techniques that don't require Uke to jump require attacks that are so over committed that they are unrealistic. (i.e. Uke is practically falling over)

For example the kokyu nage that involves dropping to your knees and throwing an opponent who has grabbed both your hands. Try doing that technique on a Judoka or a beginner. It just won't work. I still practise it, but I try and see it as a drill rather than a technique.

What do you guys think? I know I am generalising.
What exactly do you mean by 'real life'? It seems to me somehow you have things inverted. You doubt the experiences and value of your actual training, which is a real thing happening in your life. Whether it 'works' could mean a whole lot of things, depending on why you are training or what you may get out of it eventually regardless of why you think you are training. In my experience, my reasons for training have changed over time and the benefits I have gotten from it have often been nothing like what I expected at some prior time.

On the other hand, you are doubting this training on the basis of what? It sounds to me like you are doubting it on the basis of vague imaginings. If your 'real life' included the kinds of situations you are conjuring up in your mind's eye, you wouldn't have to ask - you would be testing these things out for yourself in these situations. If you have a particular self-defense need, there are a whole slew of things you could do to identify and address it, and I don't think attending a general Aikido class would be very high on the list.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2006, 08:47 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Bingo! Nice post Kevin.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2006, 08:40 PM   #43
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Lol, it's not "competition" dude, just cold hard fact.
When I meet someone that's spent 15+ years doing "hard style" aikido, and they can't handle someone that's 15-20lb lighter than they are, and has only about 2.5 years of serious training, then sure I think I should be allowed to debate the "effectiveness" of training.
In aikido there are no rules to decide who is better.
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility.
Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Then again, this stuff can only be shown hands on, I definitely think you'd get a lot out of dropping by, especially with your attitude (which actually I like, believe it or not)
If you're ever in Tokyo again PM me.

I used to think like you did.
I'm not sure you will still like my attitude during practice with me, when all your hard facts will be ruined in one second

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2006, 09:39 PM   #44
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
In aikido there are no rules to decide who is better.
Nah, but you should be able to tell what level your practice partner is on point of contact, no matter the format

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
I
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility.
"Abusing Tori"??. I think you misunderstand. I was only preforming the exercise within the set boundaries of that exercise. No excess force, no slamming the person to the mat. No changing of techniques. But you're still able to exert control over the person at will (sans muscular effort). And the fact remains is, those people I partnered with had virtually no body skill, even though their bodies were solid from years of training..
Cut and dry. That is it.

As for people getting frustrated and then suddenly trying to change the parameters of the exercise to show that they're "better" than me, that's happened as well. (And no they still weren't able to do anything).

As for us? Just PM me when you get into Tokyo next time. I'm sure you'd agree that touching hands would smooth out any misunderstanding we have. Like most people say, It has to be felt(IHTBF). Like I said, I like your mindset, you'd probably get the most out of this stuff compared to a lot of people out there, once you've felt it
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 07:24 AM   #45
Aiki x
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 27
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
What exactly do you mean by 'real life'?
Using Aikido to defend yourself from the attack of an assailant outside of the dojo.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
It seems to me somehow you have things inverted. You doubt the experiences and value of your actual training, which is a real thing happening in your life.
I'm not doubting the value of my training. My question is to what extent can Kokyu nages be used against a non compliant opponent and to what extent are they a training tool to develop timing that will benefit other techniques. Or maybe some people think that they are pointless.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
On the other hand, you are doubting this training on the basis of what?
I have dan grades in both Judo and Aikido and I have found that unless I attack in an unrealistic over committed manner many Kokyu nages do not work.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
It sounds to me like you are doubting it on the basis of vague imaginings. If your 'real life' included the kinds of situations you are conjuring up in your mind's eye, you wouldn't have to ask - you would be testing these things out for yourself in these situations.
I have tried testing numerous Aikido techniques in submission wrestling and Judo matches against none compliant opponents. Broadly I have found that kokyu nages haven't worked work. Sokumen Irimi Nage works great, it's similar to sukui nage in Judo.

I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo. In these I used Irimi Nage and Kote. I wouldn't try kokyu nages as they don't seem reliable. However, maybe they might appear in the heat of the moment if I train in them diligently.

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If you have a particular self-defense need, there are a whole slew of things you could do to identify and address it, and I don't think attending a general Aikido class would be very high on the list.
I train purely for the love of it (fun). I like that fact that the martial arts can be what you want them to be - Fitness, Fun, Spiritual, Self Defence. However, if you remove one of these elements then you aren't getting the full experience. As I've just explained I don't train to be a fighter but I expect my Aikido to have some practical application.

Thanks for all the replies to my question. Any further views would be welcome
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 07:45 AM   #46
mut
 
mut's Avatar
Dojo: south hetton (Dynamic aikido Nocquet )
Location: peterlee
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 59
United Kingdom
Offline
Ai symbol Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Neil Harrison wrote:
Using Aikido to defend yourself from the attack of an assailant outside of the dojo.



I'm not doubting the value of my training. My question is to what extent can Kokyu nages be used against a non compliant opponent and to what extent are they a training tool to develop timing that will benefit other techniques. Or maybe some people think that they are pointless.



I have dan grades in both Judo and Aikido and I have found that unless I attack in an unrealistic over committed manner many Kokyu nages do not work.



I have tried testing numerous Aikido techniques in submission wrestling and Judo matches against none compliant opponents. Broadly I have found that kokyu nages haven't worked work. Sokumen Irimi Nage works great, it's similar to sukui nage in Judo.

I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo. In these I used Irimi Nage and Kote. I wouldn't try kokyu nages as they don't seem reliable. However, maybe they might appear in the heat of the moment if I train in them diligently.



I train purely for the love of it (fun). I like that fact that the martial arts can be what you want them to be - Fitness, Fun, Spiritual, Self Defence. However, if you remove one of these elements then you aren't getting the full experience. As I've just explained I don't train to be a fighter but I expect my Aikido to have some practical application.

Thanks for all the replies to my question. Any further views would be welcome
i think if you let aikido consume you completly it will always be there at your defence, any technique, but in my humble opinion, you cant serve to masters, ive tried if your thinking judo then thats it , its passed you by, but totaly absorbed in aikido it will serve you well in any situation. i hope this helps.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 08:30 AM   #47
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Actually, I think aikido on a solid base of judo is wonderfull. I love to take ukemi from people trained like that. Dan ranked in Judo and Aikido...congrats! Let's train sometime so you can teach me a thing or two...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2006, 09:14 PM   #48
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

,Bomber,

"An assailant outside the dojo" and "a non-compliant opponent" are imaginary constructs. Moreover, they are too general to even begin to speculate about, much less train for. What type of assailant? In what situation?

If you get specific, then you can construct a model of your specific self-defense need and go about trying to address it. If you have a particular type of attacker and situation in mind, you can come up with strategies to be prepared for it or avoid it, and you can set up training scenarios to test whether a certain technique is likely to work.

This won't be easy, as there are many factors about the hypothetical 'real' situation that need to be simulated, and simulated as closely to real as possible. You'll need to find someone to train with who is willing to attack as close to the expected attack as possible, and be willing to endure the response. You'll probably need Blauer suits to avoid death or serious injury if you are talking about a scenario more serious than a drunken uncle or angry teenager. Even so, you and your training partner are likely to sustain minor to moderate injuries on a regular basis. You'll also need to find a way to stimulate an adrenaline dump similar to what you'll experience in the real situation - find some way to get scared or freaked out just before or while it's happening.

Those are the beginnings of my ideas on how to answer your question relatively safely. There are less safe ones, including, of course, going out and facing the real attackers and finding out what happens. Without being more specific, it sounds like you are just indulging in non-productive, unfocussed doubt, which is why I said that if you really needed to know, you wouldn't have to ask. If you had urgent, specific self-defense needs, you would already have the field experience and/or would already be doing something like I described above.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 09:16 AM   #49
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
I've made Aikido work in two confrontations outside of the dojo.
Hmm, that doesn't sound imaginary to me...

While I agree that a lot of un-necessary angst get's expended over questions like this, it sounds to me that the person here is fairly well-grounded, as opposed to some typical newbie playing your typical 'what if' scenarios over and over in their head.

I do like your ideas about scenario training though, Kevin. The one thing I might change in that is in trying to push the boundries to elicit a adrenaline dump. In my experience so far, aikido and aikido keiko works best with a mindset toward supressing / eliminating / redirecting such a reaction. So I would try to stress the system to greater limits to facilitate greater control of that reaction. Just my opinion...but I know how logical you are, so I don't know that I can support the idea.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 11:15 AM   #50
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Your hard fact is based on other hard fact that you are abusing generosity of tori. He is doing a technique with idea to protect you, so naturally a lot of openings are created. It is possible to close most of those openings, but uke will suffer a lot. If tori close all openings uke get hurt.
So in aikido dojo conditions most ppl will choose to rather not to do effective technique instead of hurting uke. That is Spirit of Loving Protection.
So stop dreaming about your invincibility.

I'm not sure you will still like my attitude during practice with me, when all your hard facts will be ruined in one second
If you can't do a technique with enough control to keep uke from blocking/counter attacking you cannot possibly have enough control to protect them. It's entirely possible to do. But then you just like being contrarian and have blinders on to everything that isn't Hombu Brand Aikikai Aikido (TM).
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Subtle Shades of Japanese & Assumptions Mike Sigman Open Discussions 46 08-30-2006 06:36 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 11:43 AM
Punishing Uke David Orange Training 46 06-23-2006 08:26 AM
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Env sushil_yadav Open Discussions 4 09-06-2005 04:23 PM
Randori Seminar with George Ledyard Sensei aikibaka131 Seminars 11 10-24-2003 01:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:17 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate