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Old 04-27-2006, 10:34 AM   #1
Talon
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

You mention that the Joe Trick is done easily by a number CMA people they'd probably laugh at us for thinking its something out of the ordinary. I personally have not had the pleasure of viewing or feeling the joe trick in person. Furthermore, I'm a strong believer in Newton's laws and gravity. It has to be some trick since its pretty obvious that the person/s pushing on the end of the joe have a mechanical advantage. I personally will not believe in such a thing untill I see it / feel it myself or untill someone explains to me the rules of this exercise. Perhaps the people are not really pushing on the Joe, but merely attempting to twist it out of the person's hands. Otherwise, I don't see how it can be done. Some of the things described by people on here (ie. the balancing on the rear legs of a chair while a big guy pushes and maintianing balance) really make me think that in some parts of the World perhaps physics and gravity do not exist. Or perhaps its more of mind trick than a physical feat. Anyone care to elaborate?
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:58 AM   #2
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
You mention that the Joe Trick is done easily by a number CMA people they'd probably laugh at us for thinking its something out of the ordinary. I personally have not had the pleasure of viewing or feeling the joe trick in person. Furthermore, I'm a strong believer in Newton's laws and gravity. It has to be some trick since its pretty obvious that the person/s pushing on the end of the joe have a mechanical advantage. I personally will not believe in such a thing untill I see it / feel it myself or untill someone explains to me the rules of this exercise. Perhaps the people are not really pushing on the Joe, but merely attempting to twist it out of the person's hands. Otherwise, I don't see how it can be done. Some of the things described by people on here (ie. the balancing on the rear legs of a chair while a big guy pushes and maintianing balance) really make me think that in some parts of the World perhaps physics and gravity do not exist. Or perhaps its more of mind trick than a physical feat. Anyone care to elaborate?
Well, obviously it's something out of the ordinary or it wouldn't be shown in demonstrations. It's a variant of a well-known type of "ki" demonstration. And trust me, most CMA'ers I know can't do it. In fact, most of the average western CMA'ers are floundering around with as few qi skills as most Aikidoists have. What you're watching is the beginning of a lot of these body conditioning tricks making it out into the open.

However, in relation to the jo-trick, let me say a couple of words. The heart of the skill involves shifting the responsibility for the load-bearing (due to the push) from the jo to one of the feet. This involves the mind's ability to redirect forces and force-sourcing at will. So does, for example, Tohei's trick of standing on one leg and having an uke push on his forearm... Tohei allows the load-bearing to go in a straight path to his foot.

Naturally, that's cool, but the shoulder still has to be under stress during this push, while at the same time the shoulder should not be contributing any muscular initiative of the responding force (that's where training the actual "ki" comes in, but that's another story).

So the *trick* is that Tohei redirects forces and that can be taught fairly quickly, in a rudimentay fashion to most beginners. Conditioning the shoulder and the rest of the body to transmit these forces in a relaxed fashion is a bona fide part of the trick though, and so the more conditioned the shoulder and body is to perform this sort of stunt, the more incoming force on the forearm someone can take.

So a beginner may *know* how and be able to mildly exhibit the push-on-the-forearm-one-leg trick, but he can't do it as well as Tohei, for example. Same with the jo-trick. Part of what Ueshiba was showing off was his redirection abilities *in conjunction* with the fact that he had an unusually strong and trained ability to spread the load across his body. So someone could know how to do the jo-trick and exhibit it to some degree without necessarily being able to demonstrate it to the peak level Ueshiba could have done during his prime years. Don't forget that not only did Ueshiba have high skills in these ki abilities, he also had a very small (he was only 5-feet tall.... so the moment-arm against him was less than on a long-limbed person), very powerful frame.

Just a dose of reality.

Again, doing a few of these tricks does not mean someone has a high level of the useable skills in the trick-bag of ki and kokyu forces. Doing the "jo-trick" or the "one-leg-trick", etc., does not signal anything more than maybe a foot in the door.

My 2 centavos.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 11:29 AM   #3
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
You mention that the Joe Trick is done easily by a number CMA people they'd probably laugh at us for thinking its something out of the ordinary. I personally have not had the pleasure of viewing or feeling the joe trick in person. Furthermore, I'm a strong believer in Newton's laws and gravity. It has to be some trick since its pretty obvious that the person/s pushing on the end of the joe have a mechanical advantage. I personally will not believe in such a thing untill I see it / feel it myself or untill someone explains to me the rules of this exercise. Perhaps the people are not really pushing on the Joe, but merely attempting to twist it out of the person's hands. Otherwise, I don't see how it can be done. Some of the things described by people on here (ie. the balancing on the rear legs of a chair while a big guy pushes and maintianing balance) really make me think that in some parts of the World perhaps physics and gravity do not exist. Or perhaps its more of mind trick than a physical feat. Anyone care to elaborate?
Hi Paul,

Mike has covered the how it happens in his post above. Some of these 'tricks' ( I dont really like that description as it is not accurate ) are a bit 'unbelievable' when first seen. A bit like seeing an aeroplane for the first time! it looks like magic, but it is nothing of the sort when you know how it happens.

Rest assured the gravity in my part of the world is the same as yours ( only not quite so cold in the winter ).

Of course the mind is involved but it is not a 'trick' it takes practice, practice and more practice, Mike has described the mechanics very well above, the minds role is paramount in all of these tricks/feats I prefer the term exercises. Whoever is doing the pushing has a mind, their mind preceeds their body, when they start to push it is at the minds bidding, it is this that is redirected as Mike describes, through the path to ground, once the mind is 'earthed' for want of a better term the physical body is held until the mind is changed. The person doing the exercise practices having a calm immovable mind, as well as practices redirecting the mind/s of the 'pushers'. Relaxation of mind and body, simple.
No magic I'm afraid, just practice, practice and you've guessed it more practice, oh yes having a really good teacher that can do these things well every time without fail helps.

Tohei, learned his skills from O Sensei, and he passed them on to many people ( my teacher being one of them ), anyone having any contact with the 'Ki' people will know that these things are fairly commonplace and form the basis for Ki Aikido.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:14 PM   #4
Talon
 
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Pardon my ignorance on the subject. So what youre saying is the person that is doing the pushing is basically brainwashed into thinking that he can't move the object. What if someone who doesn't believe in such things does the pushing? Does it still work? I just can't see it working on the physical level, if a real force is applied to the jo, or chair or whatever, an equal and opposite force needs to be applied to counteract it. With a mechanical advantage that the pushers of the jo, chair have, I just can't see the opposite force generated to be possible. In order to counteract a force with such a mechanical advantage the counteracting force would have to be enourmous. So I can accept the brainwashing theory, because the person pushing is not really pushing, but the alternative (physical force actually applied), seems to not be logical or possible in a world ruled by physics.

I'm sorry if I come across harsh, it is not my intention, I'm trying to figure this out and since so many people on here imply that this is common place, I need to learn what they are actually doing.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:19 PM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Whoever is doing the pushing has a mind, their mind preceeds their body, when they start to push it is at the minds bidding, it is this that is redirected as Mike describes, through the path to ground, once the mind is 'earthed' for want of a better term the physical body is held until the mind is changed.
Just to be clear, Mark, I don't quibble with any visualization you want to use (Ueshiba's visualization had to do with kami, so whatever floats your boat), but I don't need to pretend anything about uke's mind. I just re-direct forces using out-of-the-ordinary-but-not-magical body/mind skills. Each to his own.

Incidentally, the jo-trick can be done or approximated by someone who knows how to re-direct forces using a stiff/strong arm/shoulder. But that highlights an important point. Part of the skills of ki involve learning how to manipulate forces with the mind, but an equally important part is establishing and training a connection out to the extremities. How you 'bring ki out to the hands' is as important a point as being able to use the hara and force/kokyu/whatever directions. The interesting thing that catches my attention about Ueshiba doing the jo-trick is not that he does the jo-trick... how to do the trick is something I already understand... but the fact that you can see how relaxed he is while the forces come out to his hand. I.e., his is not "muscular ki" but is the real soft variety and it's trained very powerfully to be able to show, even momentarily, this kind of forces at such an extension. I.e., it is worth a "wow" because of that, not because of the principle behind the trick.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 01:10 PM   #6
Mark Freeman
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Re: Any instructors here ever challenged?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just to be clear, Mark, I don't quibble with any visualization you want to use (Ueshiba's visualization had to do with kami, so whatever floats your boat), but I don't need to pretend anything about uke's mind. I just re-direct forces using out-of-the-ordinary-but-not-magical body/mind skills. Each to his own.
Mike,

no need to pretend anything just a mental practice, but as you so rightly point out they are body/mind skills, not just body skills.

Paul,
Quote:
Pardon my ignorance on the subject. So what youre saying is the person that is doing the pushing is basically brainwashed into thinking that he can't move the object. What if someone who doesn't believe in such things does the pushing?
No I did not say or imply brainwashing, what would be the point of that?
The pusher has a mind as well as a body, deal with both not just one or the other, that is what these exercises are for - practicing the co-ordination of mind and body for the purpose of
1, improving your aikido and
2, to enhance daily life by being co-ordinated in all mundane actions.
So no, no brainwashing! I don't need people to believe that I can do something for me to be able to do it!!

I have to go now.. got a class to teach/brainwash...oops

regards,

Mark

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Old 04-27-2006, 02:39 PM   #7
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I don't mean to be offensive at all. I'm an engineering consultant and deal with physics, lever arms, mechanical advatages and forces every day. From a technical stand point these feats seem impossible. I dont care how you visualize it in your mind, if a perpindicular force is really applied at the end of a lever arm, you are in some real trouble trying to provide a counteracting force. I can visualize invisible energies all day long, it wont prevent simple physics to win over. Again, I'd love to learn more about this subject and if it is possible train to do or at least understand how these feats are accomplished. I wish there was someone local that can perform/teach these Ki excercises. If anyone has any detailed descriptions on how to practice I'd greately appreciate it. At our Dojo we train hard in our techniques, movement and moving around our centers, we do not attempt any KI specific excercises.
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Old 04-27-2006, 03:06 PM   #8
James Young
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
IFrom a technical stand point these feats seem impossible.
I think the key words there are "seem impossible". Like others have said I don't think these "feats" defy physics in any way. It's just that the forces that are visible or appear to be resulting mislead the observer and give the perception of fakery. I think if you could put together an accurate free-body-diagram with vector forces in their true direction, not just the direction the appear to go in, it would make more sense because of resultant vectors, etc., and they you can start to examine it under dynamic conditions with which it is experienced.
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Old 04-27-2006, 03:09 PM   #9
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Hi Paul,

I think Mike gave the basic description of what is supposed to be happening when he wrote: "...the skill involves shifting the responsibility for the load-bearing (due to the push) from the jo to one of the feet." This would definitely hold up to your engineering experience and understanding of physics, etc. However, what is a bit confusing in the demonstration itself, or what might be "gnawing" at you is the element of exaggeration. Perhaps Mike is coming from a mechanical/principle point of view and you are coming from a literal point of view - therein lies the apparent discrepancy.

In a mechanical system like the body, it should always be possible to shift load-bearing responsibility to almost any part of the body regardless of where that resistance is first experienced. However, that does not necessarily mean that that shifting of load-bearing responsibility can universally maintain itself in a mechanically viable function. Hence, it is possible for Osensei to shift load-bearing responsibility from the jo to his feet, but this may not necessarily mean that he can stop even one young man from gaining the distal lever advantage without some exaggeration involved.

In this way, what one is seeing is real (from a mechanical/principle point of view), but it is also false (from a literal point of view). In that sense, I think what Mike is saying is very valid, relevant, and important, and one would miss it if he/she cannot get past the level of exaggeration involved. In addition, I also think it is important to remember that both Takeda and Osensei have had top students openly state that they were not pushing all that hard in such demonstrations, and that if they were, they would have accomplished what any literalist would imagine quite easily. Remembering the latter keeps us honest, and, in my opinion, more likely to discover those very real principles of shifting load-bearing responsibility - less likely to talk about kokyu as some kind of magical "force" (ala Lucas).

my perspective,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-27-2006, 03:10 PM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
I don't mean to be offensive at all. I'm an engineering consultant and deal with physics, lever arms, mechanical advatages and forces every day. From a technical stand point these feats seem impossible. I dont care how you visualize it in your mind, if a perpindicular force is really applied at the end of a lever arm, you are in some real trouble trying to provide a counteracting force. I can visualize invisible energies all day long, it wont prevent simple physics to win over. Again, I'd love to learn more about this subject and if it is possible train to do or at least understand how these feats are accomplished. I wish there was someone local that can perform/teach these Ki excercises. If anyone has any detailed descriptions on how to practice I'd greately appreciate it. At our Dojo we train hard in our techniques, movement and moving around our centers, we do not attempt any KI specific excercises.
You're not offensive at all, Paul... you're doing exactly what I think everyone should do, analyze, challenge, think out loud, etc. This is the sort of stuff I like to do on the QiJing list: analyze forces, skills, etc.

Think of this for a second. If you're say standing up and and you're holding your left fist inside your right hand (to make them one object. Your elbows are against your ribcage so basically your joined fists are a solid part of your body. If I say "start to move forward but don't really move", there will be a forward potential to your fists, even though you don't move; I can't see it. If I say "pull backward, but don't really move", there will be a backward pulling potential to your fists, even though you don't move; I can't see the difference. If I say "push the fists vertically straight up, but don't move".... same idea; I can't see the difference. And I can say "add weight to your fists like you're trying to sink them down, but don't move"... same thing; I can't see the difference.

Without moving, your mind and micro-muscular motion are able to bring force vectors to the hands (or any part of the body), provided you have a good connection. Yes, there are physical limits to these tricks, but they can get pretty sophisticated. If you're conditioned well and you can adjust the vector directions your body is "emanating" quickly, you can arrange your resultant body direction so that someone pushing against a seemingly vertical lever is actually pushing against a *ground-based* force that is coming into them at an upward angle. So draw a picture of a horizontal non-ground-based force meeting head to head with a ground-based force that is coming up toward it. It takes some skill and yes, whoever applies first can usually be the winner, etc., but it's not magic.... it's practice. And you have to learn to rely on your lower body for the load-bearing responsibilities.

Regards,

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 04-27-2006 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 04-27-2006, 03:51 PM   #11
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Thanks for all of the explanation guys. I can see where youre going with this, however, I still can't see how it can be done. If you extend your arm and extend a jo even further and someone pushes on the end of that jo, they are introducing a torque. The force at the end of the lever arm does not have to be great at all to generate a high torque at the center. If you are not going to move you have to generate a massive torque in the opposite direction (assuming youre using your legs/feet). How do you do that? Furthermore, if you have your arm extended how do you prevent that arm from giving out first. I mean a system is only as strong as its weakest link. I'd think that your extended arm would be that weakest link in the scenario where someone is applying a perpindicular force to it (with a mechanical advantage at that). Does anyone have any simple excersizes that I could try to experiment with this?
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Old 04-27-2006, 04:28 PM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
If you extend your arm and extend a jo even further and someone pushes on the end of that jo, they are introducing a torque. The force at the end of the lever arm does not have to be great at all to generate a high torque at the center. If you are not going to move you have to generate a massive torque in the opposite direction (assuming youre using your legs/feet). How do you do that? Furthermore, if you have your arm extended how do you prevent that arm from giving out first. I mean a system is only as strong as its weakest link. I'd think that your extended arm would be that weakest link in the scenario where someone is applying a perpindicular force to it (with a mechanical advantage at that). Does anyone have any simple excersizes that I could try to experiment with this?
Hi Paul:
Yes, that's the second part of the equation, what I would call technically the "ki". Although Tohei and a lot of Japanese call the forces "ki power" or just "ki", I tend to separate the forces from the "ki" thing... it's a terminology problem.

Essentially what you're asking about is that stuff that people build up by Misogi or other approaches to "tanden breathing", "breathing to the navel" or whatever you want to call it. It's related to the fascial structures and in relation to the exact question you're asking, it tends to spread the force. If a normal person does the jo trick, the weakest link will be the shoulder joint or the wrist. Someone who has built up their "ki" will have a strong supportive "sheet" spread around the body structure that works in effect to spread that torque so that the torque gets spread, say, instead of being focused on the shoulder, it is spread over the arm, shoulder and back. However, we're getting into an area that is more complex than I want to go, so let's leave it there. But at least you get a glimpse of a structure that can spread the effects of torque and at the same time make your skin hard to puncture, able to pull loads with hooks in the skin, make someone resistant to heavy blows, etc.; all of these are normally considered characteristics of ki.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 05:08 PM   #13
Jory Boling
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

is there a video of somebody doing the jo-trick somewhere?

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Old 04-27-2006, 05:17 PM   #14
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

http://www.neijia.com/jotrick2.avi

You have to be careful of some of the so-called "jo-trick" pictures, in my opinion, because in what I consider the jo-trick, the uke(s) push horizontally. In some pictures they are pushing downward, which is a different matter entirely.

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 05:41 PM   #15
charron
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
If you extend your arm and extend a jo even further and someone pushes on the end of that jo, they are introducing a torque. The force at the end of the lever arm does not have to be great at all to generate a high torque at the center. If you are not going to move you have to generate a massive torque in the opposite direction (assuming youre using your legs/feet). How do you do that? Furthermore, if you have your arm extended how do you prevent that arm from giving out first. I mean a system is only as strong as its weakest link. I'd think that your extended arm would be that weakest link in the scenario where someone is applying a perpindicular force to it (with a mechanical advantage at that).

I think that you are looking at the force being applied - as being in a laboratory. In a lab, yes you can measure forces in straight line. And, yes to stop a direct force you would need an equal and opposite force to cancel it out. What makes this different than strictly mechanical measured forces is that both individuals are living organisms. One person is affecting the other person at the core of their being via 'intent'/''ki'. These forces by both people involved can be and are changed the moment a connection is made, and now both people share a coming point. On a not so dramatic way, we practice, with one of our goals, to be able to take someone's center/balance on the very 1st touch. We are not always successful, but by continuing to practice - we are getting better at it.
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Old 04-27-2006, 05:49 PM   #16
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ron Charron wrote:
And, yes to stop a direct force you would need an equal and opposite force to cancel it out.
However, if you supply a response to uke's immediate force that is cleverly NOT equal and opposite, there can be a resultant force that takes him in a direction he hadn't counted on and often his force actually contributes to taking him in that not-so-good-for-him direction. As a number of famous Aikido experts have noted, it is the ability to do that at first touch that is the heart of "aiki".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 05:56 PM   #17
Michael O'Brien
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Paul,

I have seen some pictures of the jo exercise and a brief clip of it in one video but I don't remember which one offhand so I don't have any firsthand experience with it.

However, I do have experience with the concept of the unbendable arm ki exercise which is similar. When we train with this I place my arm with my forearm extended just over the shoulder of my partner with my elbow pointing to the ground. My partner places his hands over the bend in my elbow and attempts to bend the arm while I am focusing on extending my ki through the arm to keep it straight. The arm is slightly bent at the elbow, not locking the joint out, and the arm stays relaxed so you can even wiggle the fingers while your partner is attempting this.

I can do this successfully and can attest that at 5'10", 185 lbs I can exert a lot of force and not bend someone elses arm who is doing this while I am trying to force their arm to bend as well.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:29 PM   #18
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Thank you for all the responses guys. I rarely post, mostly just read on here. I think I'll start posting more questions since I'm overwhelmed with the amount of great people willing to help/explain things on here. I'll have to practice the unbendable arm, which we don't do at my dojo. The unbendable arm is however not quite the same (or as difficult) thing as the other (jo, Chair) tricks mentioned. I'll try it nevertheless.
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:45 PM   #19
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
http://www.neijia.com/jotrick2.avi

You have to be careful of some of the so-called "jo-trick" pictures, in my opinion, because in what I consider the jo-trick, the uke(s) push horizontally. In some pictures they are pushing downward, which is a different matter entirely.

Mike
Thats a nice video, but I did notice that the Uke was not pushing at the end of the jo where he would have had the best mechanical advantage, instead he was pushing near O'Sensei's hand where the mechanical advantage was minimal. Nevertheless the demonstration was impressive.
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:50 PM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
Nevertheless the demonstration was impressive.
I agree.... I thought the pusher should get an Emmy at a minimum and perhaps even an Oscar for "Best Supporting Role".

Mike
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:55 PM   #21
Talon
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I agree.... I thought the pusher should get an Emmy at a minimum and perhaps even an Oscar for "Best Supporting Role".

Mike
My thoughts exactly...I'd like to see some football player out of the crowd try pushing that jo...
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:01 PM   #22
Michael O'Brien
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
Thank you for all the responses guys. I rarely post, mostly just read on here. I think I'll start posting more questions since I'm overwhelmed with the amount of great people willing to help/explain things on here. I'll have to practice the unbendable arm, which we don't do at my dojo. The unbendable arm is however not quite the same (or as difficult) thing as the other (jo, Chair) tricks mentioned. I'll try it nevertheless.
Paul,

I agree the unbendable arm exercise isn't nearly as difficult as the other ki exercises; However, it is better to learn to crawl before you take off running marathons and I am definitely still somewhere in the crawling to weeble wobble stage in my Aikido journey.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:02 PM   #23
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Yeah, there was some very interesting truth in the jo-trick, but there was also some embellishment. But what the hey, Ueshiba was in his 80's and nobody thought to film him doing the trick in his 40-50's when we could have told more. For that much moment-arm, he still does an impressive display and the principle is worth the discussion it brings.

Mike
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:03 AM   #24
Jory Boling
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote:
My thoughts exactly...I'd like to see some football player out of the crowd try pushing that jo...
So, are there are a couple of you online here, that could have a "football player" push on the far end of the jo and demonstrate it? If you ever get around to making a short video of it, I'd like to see it.
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:40 AM   #25
eyrie
 
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Location: Summerholm, Queensland
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Rupert Atkinson conducted an experiment some time ago to demonstrate this trick quite easily. He didn't have a "football player" (whatever that stereotype means?) pushing on the jo, but he had 2-3 of his students pushing on it. The videos are hidden somewhere on his site... you'd have to ask him....

Ignatius
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