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Old 08-08-2006, 03:11 PM   #26
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
To me it is still not entirely clear how the name 'aikido' came to existence. But iirc O-sensei did use 'aiki' and 'aiki' seems to be a bigger problem than 'do'.
Me, either. But according to sources, Hirai Minoru, acting as go-between for Osensei and the Butokukai came up with the name and Osensei agreed. But how Osensei used the term, and how everybody else did, can easily be two different things. (Evidently, DR came to be called "aikijujutsu" at the suggestion of Osensei and the third of the aikido triumvirate, Deguchi Onisaburo, whom Takeda didn't like.)

Quote:
If O-sensei became more spiritual in his later years, perhaps it was then that he began to explore the spiritual side of the martial aiki and started talking about ai-ki-do.
I would doubt this. He was always a pretty spiritual person. I would tend to think, rather, that he found ways to pun new meanings into old and took advantage of that as much as possible. Thus aiki-->ai & ki. Just my two cents, though.

Thanks for the response.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-08-2006, 04:07 PM   #27
dps
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote:
Perhaps we need to differentiate between the martial and spiritual ideas of O-sensei. (Don't ask me how, this is tricky stuff.) The martial aiki seems to come with some modification from daito-ryu. The term 'aikido' was accepted in the early 1940s (correct me if I'm wrong). If O-sensei became more spiritual in his later years, perhaps it was then that he began to explore the spiritual side of the martial aiki and started talking about ai-ki-do.
This what I am thinking too. It seems to me that O-Sensei's early Aikido emphasis was on the developement of the physical aspects (body) and less on the spiritual and as he developed the physical aspects the spiritual aspects become more relevant to him.

Aikido is a parallel of his developement that he gave us in hopes we could acclompish the same developement he did in a shorter time.

Did the Aiki that O-Sensei learned from Takeda Sensei have any spiritual aspect? What was Takeds Sensei's religous or spiritual beliefs?
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Old 08-08-2006, 04:58 PM   #28
markwalsh
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Name anything that's universially accepted. Friendly challenge...

I know there's people way smarter than me out there, so I'm confidant we'll get something. What ya got!!!?!!!
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:08 AM   #29
Charles Hill
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Thanks to the work of people like Stan Pranin and John Stevens, it is clear that for Morihei Ueshiba's art had a spiritual base right from the beginning. He joined Omoto-kyo as a young man, which encourages its members to explore spirituality through the medium of art. O'Sensei's "art" was martial and his Aikido was an expression of his spirituality right from when he joined in his 30's.

For me the question of a universal definition starts with whether one considers Morihei Ueshiba to be the base, or beginning (perhaps there is a better way to state this?) of Aikido. If one person answers "yes" and another "no" I think the discussion kind of grinds to a halt.

Charles Hill
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:24 AM   #30
Brad Pruitt
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Name anything that's universially accepted. Friendly challenge...

I know there's people way smarter than me out there, so I'm confidant we'll get something. What ya got!!!?!!!
How about Love ?
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Old 08-09-2006, 01:03 AM   #31
dps
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Thanks to the work of people like Stan Pranin and John Stevens, it is clear that for Morihei Ueshiba's art had a spiritual base right from the beginning. He joined Omoto-kyo as a young man, which encourages its members to explore spirituality through the medium of art. O'Sensei's "art" was martial and his Aikido was an expression of his spirituality right from when he joined in his 30's.
Yes O'Sensei was a spiritual person from when he was a little boy but his start into martial arts was not to express his spirituality but to develope enormous physical strength and martial skill because of his father's trouble with rival political foes hiring thugs to beat his father up. In 1915 he met Sokaku Takeda and was taught Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. In 1920 he met Wanisburo Deguchi and became a follower of Omoto-kyo. It was 1925 when he had his spiritual conversion to all budo is God's love and the 1940's when he took the name of Aikido as the name of his art. So the beginning of his journey was not of spiritual origin it but desire for physical ability. The spiritual came out as he got older and during the developement of his art.

If universally means those outside of Aikido then definately there is no consensus of the meaning.

Last edited by dps : 08-09-2006 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:51 AM   #32
markwalsh
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
How about Love ?
That would have been my first pass, but then I remembered all the people out there who have great difficulty saying "Yes" to it. It's the light not the darkness that scare us and all that...

How about frozen pizza isn't as good as fresh.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:16 AM   #33
dps
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
That would have been my first pass, but then I remembered all the people out there who have great difficulty saying "Yes" to it. It's the light not the darkness that scare us and all that...

How about frozen pizza isn't as good as fresh.
Digiorno frozen pizza
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:36 AM   #34
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Yes O'Sensei was a spiritual person from when he was a little boy but his start into martial arts was not to express his spirituality but to develope enormous physical strength and martial skill because of his father's trouble with rival political foes hiring thugs to beat his father up.
I agree, but I think this oversimpifies. I don't think there was that much of a contradiction in Osensei's mind between body and spirit.

Quote:
The spiritual came out as he got older and during the developement of his art.
In the Shingon Buddhist tradition, to which he was initiated at 7, and it's "secular" offshoots in the form of MICHI such as poetry, Noh, carpentry, etc., one infuses one's practice of the profane with the sacred. This is done in manners considered laughable today, such as punning (the word IS the THING, of course and contra our modern sensibility disallowing the map as the territory), numerology, et al. but it is/was the currency of mystical pursuit. I doubt myself that there was such a breach in the man's practice of bujutsu over and against spirituality. We see how seamlessly he taught his precious budo to the wildest factions of reaction during the 15 Year War, e.g.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:34 PM   #35
Charles Hill
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
one infuses one's practice of the profane with the sacred.
I would even go so far as to say it was the opposite for Morihei. It is my understanding that Onisaburo encouraged his followers to use what they were good at and interested in and make that the vehicle of their spiritual practice. It is my impression that the spiritual was by far more important than the martial, the quote of dressing the old bujutsu in new clothing and all.

I think that Morihei was a lifelong follower of Onisaburo's, who, like any good teacher, encouraged his students to become independent of him. It is now obvious that the Aikikai severely downplayed the influence of Sokaku Takeda. I think the same was done of Omoto.

Charles
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:41 PM   #36
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Don J. Modesto wrote:
one infuses one's practice of the profane with the sacred.


Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I would even go so far as to say it was the opposite for Morihei. It is my understanding that Onisaburo encouraged his followers to use what they were good at and interested in and make that the vehicle of their spiritual practice.
Didn't you just repeat what I said?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:32 AM   #37
Charles Hill
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Hi Don,

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. If one infuses the profane with the sacred, that sounds to me like the profane is primary or fundamental. I see it as M. Ueshiba considering the spiritual primary and the martial secondary. We know that Sokaku was unhappy with changes Morihei made, yet Morihei did not change back and in fact went even further with changes after the war. An interesting question is, would he have changed things if Onisaburo had told him to. For example, that martial arts are wrong and you should drop them. Of course, we don't know the answer, but I suspect he may have made those changes.

From my reading of your post, I felt that this was somewhat different than what you wrote. If I misread your post, my apologies.
Charles
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:02 AM   #38
Don_Modesto
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
If one infuses the profane with the sacred, that sounds to me like the profane is primary or fundamental....From my reading of your post, I felt that this was somewhat different than what you wrote. If I misread your post, my apologies.
Charles
Hi, Charles,

No harm done. I see the distinction you make. It's very subtle. Probably subtler than my thinking.

As always, thanks for the response.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:54 PM   #39
markwalsh
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

No more takers on the challenge to name anything that is universally accepted?
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Old 08-10-2006, 02:49 PM   #40
Basia Halliop
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

The sky is blue?
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Old 08-10-2006, 02:51 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Nobody get's out alive...NOBODY!!!

Hmmm....
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-10-2006, 02:53 PM   #42
dps
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
The sky is blue?
What shade of blue?
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Old 08-10-2006, 03:01 PM   #43
markwalsh
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Mum's colourblind
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Old 08-11-2006, 11:10 AM   #44
Basia Halliop
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Mark Walsh wrote:
Mum's colourblind
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Old 08-11-2006, 11:46 AM   #45
dps
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Re: Poll: Is there a universally accepted definition of the term "aikido"?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote:
The sky is blue?
Says who?
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