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Old 07-02-2007, 05:37 AM   #1
CarlRylander
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Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Has anyone seen this video?

It looks a lot less choreographed than some!

Impressive.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:21 AM   #2
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
Has anyone seen this video?

It looks a lot less choreographed than some!

Impressive.
Which one? Post a link, please. Shioda Shihan had many filmed demos and instructional videos...some better than others. However, I certainly agree...watching his powerful & precise technique certainly gets the blood pumping! Reminds us Aikidoka that Aikido is indeed a martial art, and not a navel-gazing art!
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:47 AM   #3
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Here's the link, I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:27 AM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Yep. good stuff.

Best,
Ron (it's a keeper...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:21 PM   #5
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yep. good stuff.

Best,
Ron (it's a keeper...)
Hey Ron,

Do you the history behind the reason for Shioda Sensei and the Yoshinkan serperating from the Aikikai?

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Old 07-02-2007, 02:38 PM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Hi Nafis,

Never was a separation. Yoshinkan was actually created at or around the same time, maybe even first...I forget the details, but Ueshiba gave permission for Shioda Sensei to form the Yoshinkan. I think some people at a company asked Shioda Sensei to teach, and Ueshiba was fine with it, and it began from there.

Steven Miranda's web page, the source for all things yoshinkan in NA and many other places, should have it...If I see the link I'll post it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:44 PM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

http://www.seikeikan.com/index.php
Quote:
Yoshinkan 'House for Cultivating the Spirit' was founded in 1955 by Shioda Gozo Kancho, a top student of Aikido founder Ueshiba Morehei O'Sensei (great teacher) before and after World War II. With full support of his teacher the Yoshinkan was responsible for the early spread of Aikido after World War II and has some 150 basic techniques, which are practiced repeatedly. These enable the student to master the remaining ones, which total some 3000 overall.
Can't find the actual timing relative to the Aikikai...gotta dig deeper. Or wait a few minutes...Chris Li will let us know!

Best,
Ron

From Aikido Journal...

Quote:
Aikikai Foundation. The Zaidan Hojin Aikikai was established on 9 February 1948 and is the legal entity under which the AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO operates.
So the Aikikai was founded first it seems.

B,
R

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-02-2007 at 02:48 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:57 PM   #8
aikilouis
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

More details here : http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3484

Thanks to Stanley Pranin.

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Old 07-02-2007, 09:03 PM   #9
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:43 PM   #10
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks
Takeshi Kimeda of the Yoshinkai lives in Toronto. He could explain it you.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:45 PM   #11
Steven
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

From Stan Pranin's article on Gozo Shioda Kancho

Quote:
The subject of how Yoshinkan Aikido became separate from the Aikikai is little understood. When Shioda started his Aikido activities in earnest after the war, Morihei Ueshiba was still in retirement in Iwama and classes at the Aikikai dojo (formerly the Kobukan) were irregular and sparsely attended. In fact, several families left homeless due to the bombing of Tokyo lived in the dojo. At one point, it was even used as a dance hall!

It was against this backdrop that Shioda achieved several early successes as the Yoshinkan grew steadily. Somewhat later, the Aikikai gradually began to regain momentum under the direction of Ueshiba's son Kisshomaru and the founder himself spent increasingly more time in Tokyo. Thus, there never occurred a formal split between the two organizations despite their rather different approaches to Aikido. The two groups simply evolved independently while maintaining more or less cordial ties. Up until his death, Shioda and Kisshomaru made regular appearances on formal occasions at each other activities.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:45 PM   #12
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

I recall him using that example in "Total Aikido" -- a good technical book, by the way. In "Total Aikido", he uses it as an illustration of "focused power" -- in that case, I guess, putting the whole body's energy into a jab with the fingertips.

My hunch is that it's going to just the base of the throat; that soft spot near the collarbones.

I don't think he necessarily means to show it as a "real technique" per se, but as a dramatic example of power concentrated onto an opponent's weak spot.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:09 AM   #13
CarlRylander
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

That bit where he throws someone with a flick of his hips is good.

Also where he throws three at once.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:57 AM   #14
Haowen Chan
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Wow, awesome vid compilation! Now I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do? And yet the video shows Shioda-sensei teaching higher level ki applications? Sorry if I misunderstood, I don't understand Japanese so I don't know what he's saying.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:16 AM   #15
Dewey
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Would anyone who understands the video be able to explain that jab he does to the uke's throat, who then throws himself backwards?

thanks
I don't understand Japanese, nor do I study Yoshinkan Aikido, so my comments/observations can be taken with a grain of salt. However, I'd have to ask: have you ever been struck in the throat at moderate to full speed? If yes, how did it feel and what was your reactions? If no, I'd ask a sparring buddy (sans gloves & protective gear) to do so you can test the soundess of this technique to your satisfaction. True enough, it's a demo and some ukes play it up for the camera. However, I don't think his reaction is too far off the mark. Also, like many of the atemi waza of Aikido, it is also an unbalancing technique. Even if you're not successful in "dropping him," at list you got him to flinch and to instinctively react with his arms...creating an opening for application of another technique which would yield more desirable results.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:26 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Howard Chan wrote: View Post
Wow, awesome vid compilation! Now I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do? And yet the video shows Shioda-sensei teaching higher level ki applications? Sorry if I misunderstood, I don't understand Japanese so I don't know what he's saying.
In my opinion, if you read Shioda Sensei's books, you'll get a good feel for how things like this are taught today in the yoshinkan. When people make reference to ki, it is usually as a joke...more or less. The more formal explanations have to do with balancing all of the bodies "powers". Ki power has been the focus of some clinics at the Doshinkan where I train (very occasionally only just now, due to work and family constraints).

I think the approach that people like Mike Sigman and Dan Harden take is very useful and also very rare. I have seen and heard snippets of the things they stress at the Doshinkan, but I have not been able to absorb the lessons in my mind and body to a satisfactory extent. I have felt various seniors however, who exhibit very powerful body movement which to me (as a relative ki novice) is one of the hallmarks of using ki in their waza. Doesn't feel like a wrestler's strength...some of these people are/were not young or powerfull that way...but the power was there, clear, and unmistakable.

In my opinion, I don't know much, yada yada yada....insert applicable disclaimer here.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:06 PM   #17
Nikopol
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Howard Chan wrote: View Post
I am curious, what is the ki teaching methodology of Yoshinkan? From what I have read, they don't actually teach basic internal skills stuff explicitly like the ki society do?
Funny thing is in the US one hears of ki - use your ki - without ever training in Aikido or the martial arts. Yet studying Yoshinkan in Japan, I have never heard the word mentioned once. In Aikikai I do hear it mentioned.

My theory has been that 'ki' is a rather common word in Japanese. It occurs in many phrases.

'ki wo tsukete' be careful
'ki ni naru' I am concerned about that.
'sono ki ga suru' That's what I think (intuit)
'kimochi ii' that feels good
'ki ga sumu' to get over it
'ki ga kiku' to be aware of someone's needs
'ki ga magaru' to be bent out of shape
'ki ga chisai' to be timid

the list could go on and on. It might make a good thread. But I reasoned that perhaps it is just as common as the English word 'It'
and maybe ... would be the equivelant of non-english speakers telling us to focus our 'it'. You know, try it. feel it. deflect it...

Always worth asking, however, so one evening I mentioned to a 7th dan sensei that, 'I have never heard mention of ki in Yoshinkan'. He thought about it for a bit and said, "Ima made wa, ki wo mitagoto nai na" = I have never seen ki.

Well I certainly thought, 'neither can you see electricity or sound; I thought that implicit' but I did not push him on the matter.

I don't know if I feel ki in Yoshinkan but through the kihondosa and tenchinage, etc, I seem to feel similar things: ten and chi for example. Perhaps I might not have noticed that if I had focused on ki. But Yoshinkan seems to be focused on conditioning the entire body, and as a vessel so conditioned it seems that it becomes a good conductor of ki throughout. But again, no-one has mentioned it.

Perhaps Yoshinkan is like Han Solo with a blaster who does not feel the need for ancient religions and mystical energy fields. :-)Perhaps yoshinkan does not want to name something that we will never know until we find it within ourselves.

But that is the situation as I have observed it thus far.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:34 PM   #18
Haowen Chan
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Hmm, interesting to know. To be sure, to teach the techniques first and let the student puzzle out the core body skills later, is not an unusual teaching method; in martial arts history the "internal schools" where the body skills are emphasized at beginner levels are a minority I think rather than the norm. It's very interesting that aikido can be taught either way depending on ryuha and you end up with high level practitioners either way.

Much thanks Ron and Vincent.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 07-03-2007 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:25 AM   #19
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

My teacher always said... look at Kancho's footwork.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:46 PM   #20
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
I'd ask a sparring buddy (sans gloves & protective gear) to do so you can test the soundess of this technique to your satisfaction.
With me standing straight up with my arms at my side, or with arms up and chin down?

I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? The man obviously has good technique...it just looks cheesey when his ukes have to ruin it by acting like they're in mortal agony or experiencing a wild seizure. I mean I know nikyo hurts, but c'mon...

Just annoys me when people do wild breakfalls just for the sake of it.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:35 AM   #21
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
I like Shioda Sensei...but why are his ukes always so over-eager? The man obviously has good technique...it just looks cheesey when his ukes have to ruin it by acting like they're in mortal agony or experiencing a wild seizure. I mean I know nikyo hurts, but c'mon...

Just annoys me when people do wild breakfalls just for the sake of it.
I agree. Although I hear that part of it is that, honestly, he was kind of brutal to his students, and they developed a bit of fear of him. One of his less admirable qualities. But yes. I'm dismayed when they start yelling out and stuff.

As for the "ki" thing -- while "ki" doesn't come up much, maybe, I recall Shioda-sensei talking extensively about "kokyu" in his various books (e.g. Total Aikido, Aikido Shugyo). I believe he summarized his opinion by saying that kokyu was a combination of:

1) Timing
2) Focused power

Interestingly, for the founder of a style known for its "external" emphasis, he says again and again that kokyu is essential. For instance, in Total Aikido, he remarks that if you have good form but no timing, you'll likely have no effect, but if you have good timing, you can "do a lot of damage" even if your form is poor.
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:19 AM   #22
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

I think Japanese Martial Art culture is full of "schilling for the master" as Mike Sigman likes to call it.

But personally, unless you have taken ukemi for Shioda Sensei, I wouldn't classify what his students do as that. I've talked with some people who took ukemi for Shioda Sensei...my instructor is one of them. From what I understand, the pain in most of the demonstrations is very real. And the throws as well.

As to the eagerness...one thing that was very important to Shioda Sensei was to show strong spirit. That can be very much mis-understood when looking in from the outside.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:38 AM   #23
dbotari
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Ron,

Just noticed the birthday cake icon. Happy Birthday from one Yoshinkaner to another. Best wishes and may you have many more years on the mats!

Dan
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:42 AM   #24
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Osu! and thanks!

Now if I can just stop working so darn much...

B,
R

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Old 07-05-2007, 09:55 PM   #25
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Aikido Shioda on Youtube

Quote:
But personally, unless you have taken ukemi for Shioda Sensei, I wouldn't classify what his students do as that. I've talked with some people who took ukemi for Shioda Sensei...my instructor is one of them. From what I understand, the pain in most of the demonstrations is very real. And the throws as well.
I take ukemi for my own shihan on a regular basis...the energy most people consume wielding a pencil, he can use to break a wrist. I am not underestimating Shioda Sensei, but I know when things are being exaggerated a bit.

I especially like the part where the ukes swing the bokken, miss, then proceed into a perfect breakfall. Yeah, I can definitely see the real pain there.
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