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Old 08-04-2006, 05:05 AM   #51
Dazzler
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The problem with Aikido, from a "quickie self-defense" standpoint is that the techniques are generally complicated, always practiced with "cooperative partners", etc. So it takes time to be effective if that's what you're concentrating on.

Getting out of the way and applying a simple, sudden technique, such as some of the ones that Shioda demonstrates with his shoulder, palm, etc., would be nice... but without power behind them, those techniques aren't all that effective.

Making the point again, more power and more short techniques up front would be a general statement of a solution that would be helpful.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Some excellent posts as usual in this thread gentlemen.

I'd offer my input in that while Aikido techniques do take a lot of time before they could effectively be used, the principles embodied within them can be used far quicker.

I've been taught that they are not techniques at all, thus ikkyo translates as 1st teaching and not first technique for instance.

While some may say whats in a word, this translation significantly affects direction of practice - either you practice to perfect ikkyo or you practice to perfect what ikkyo can teach.

By using "teaching" definition a whole world of flexibility opens up.

Mike Sigman has already mentioned getting out of the wayand applying something simple and sudden - this is kamae or relationship. Others may call it tenkan or Tai sabaki. One of the first things to be learned from any of the receiving "techniques".

No matter.

Align this with irimi and atemi. Entry and striking and you have a reasonably effective mechanism very quickly. Whether the partner is compliant or not.

</careful wording mode on>/ Tamura Sensei has said that O'Sensei claimed aikido to be 90% irimi and atemi//<careful wording mode off/> now - I know that because he said someone else said it doesn't necessarily make it true - so if you like ignore who said it and just consider it under its own merits. (since we've been here before) ;-). Personally since Tamura has just been mentioned under another thread as the man who turned down 9th Dan I feel its a timely endorsement

Either way - Its still a fairly good start - get safe and counter. And probably a lot better than rear naked chokes against multiple attacker perhaps. My point being that if this is the core of aikido then perhaps aikido can be as effective as anything else if practice is targetted on effectiveness alone.

As Kevin Leavitt mentions - using scenario based drills and higher intensity attacks will for some enhance the ability to cope with more serious situations - perhaps the issue is that not all aikido instructors are prepared to sacrifice time to polish this subset of aikido, or even lack the knowledge or imagination to do so.

For many others it may be OTT and the risk of injury due to full on uncompromising attacks may be unacceptable.

For others it will simply be a distraction from a lifetimes committment to using aikido to enhance their life rather than another weapon to crush those that cross their path.

So while adjusting practice style may be a quicker way of developing effectiveness (whatever that is) there is a price.

My bottom line is that Aikido is a flexible enough tool to deliver what ever is required. What makes the difference is how you use the tool.

FWIW

D

Last edited by Dazzler : 08-04-2006 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:00 AM   #52
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
Align this with irimi and atemi. Entry and striking and you have a reasonably effective mechanism very quickly. Whether the partner is compliant or not.
You make it sound like that is an easy skill to gain. I've found actually hitting someone at all is a hard skill to develolp. In fact its the biggest problem plaguing most 'martial artists' I've met. They have mental blocks to hittting someone that they need to break down well before they can even start to learn how to hit someone who wants to hurt them back.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:07 AM   #53
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Kong Seng Yuan wrote:
yeah, only thing is the "circles" you make with your hands and feet are faster, and you face spends a lot of time on the ground !
Well...there is that.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:13 AM   #54
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
You make it sound like that is an easy skill to gain. I've found actually hitting someone at all is a hard skill to develolp. In fact its the biggest problem plaguing most 'martial artists' I've met. They have mental blocks to hittting someone that they need to break down well before they can even start to learn how to hit someone who wants to hurt them back.
Hmmm.Not sure where you hang out but I have met many martial artists who enjoy "hitting" me very much.
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Old 08-04-2006, 07:36 AM   #55
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Re: Women and Aikido

I know a lot of guys with no problem hitting me. However, I have met tons of aikido who refuse to throw attacks that would actually hit. I've met tons of tkd and karate guys that actually train to not hit each other when they spar. And outside of a kempo dojo and my mma club I usually find mosts people uncomfortable with punching me in the face. I usually have to work it out of them by standing there and letting them hit me. "Come on, it wont hurt me I promise, punch me.". If we are in the dojo and I say try to hit me, I expect that person to do everything in their power to hit me.

Most people are just not comfortable with violence. This is an even bigger problem for women. You have to be ok with the idea of feeling someones eye gush around your thumb before you can eye gouge someone. You have to be ok with feeling the bones crush and jab into the skin before you can break someone's arm. You have to be ok with seeing blood and feeling the impact and wetness on your skin before you can punch someone in the face. If your not ok with this, then you wont train in a matter useful at all. You will 'skim' over those parts that upset you. If I never throw a punch that connects I'm training myself to throw punches that don't conncet. If I never get hit, the first time I do I'll be out of my element. You fight like you train, both mentally and physically.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 08:23 AM   #56
Dazzler
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
You make it sound like that is an easy skill to gain. I've found actually hitting someone at all is a hard skill to develolp. In fact its the biggest problem plaguing most 'martial artists' I've met. They have mental blocks to hittting someone that they need to break down well before they can even start to learn how to hit someone who wants to hurt them back..
ok Don - Is this a problem with aikido.....or the people doing aikido?

Aikido can hardly be criticised if the real barrier is someones reluctance to use it.

In my experience if you practice striking you improve, and it doesn't take long to gain some competency.

Whether someone would hit is another ball game and like so many threads that compare arts we get back to the same old conclusion - its the martial artist and not the martial art thats important.

D
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:04 AM   #57
Mark Uttech
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Re: Women and Aikido

I often wonder if this means that people are basically peaceful in nature, already enlightened. I watched the changing of the guard at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier once, and the marine who was simply announcing the event scared the hell out of me; it scared me because it deleted my inner definition of what it meant to be human. I have no doubt that he most likely was human and was not a cyborg. and sometimes I wonder if martial arts is for people who don't join the armed forces or the police.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:11 AM   #58
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I usually find mosts people uncomfortable with punching me in the face.
Oh Don. Don't sell yourself short. I would love to punch you in the face.
No really, you just have to promise me you won't hurt me for doing so.
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:21 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
This is an even bigger problem for women. You have to be ok with the idea of feeling someones eye gush around your thumb before you can eye gouge someone. You have to be ok with feeling the bones crush and jab into the skin before you can break someone's arm. You have to be ok with seeing blood and feeling the impact and wetness on your skin before you can punch someone in the face. If your not ok with this, then you wont train in a matter useful at all. You will 'skim' over those parts that upset you. If I never throw a punch that connects I'm training myself to throw punches that don't conncet. If I never get hit, the first time I do I'll be out of my element. You fight like you train, both mentally and physically.
OK, Don.... no more steroids for you and no more kung fu movies. There are levels between "not fighting" and "All Out Fighting" that can be helpful to a lot of people (including a lot of males).

But funny post. Made me laugh.


Mike
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Old 08-04-2006, 09:45 AM   #60
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
But funny post. Made me laugh.
Yup.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 08-04-2006, 10:02 AM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Daren Sims Wrote:

Quote:
As Kevin Leavitt mentions - using scenario based drills and higher intensity attacks will for some enhance the ability to cope with more serious situations - perhaps the issue is that not all aikido instructors are prepared to sacrifice time to polish this subset of aikido, or even lack the knowledge or imagination to do so.
I think that this type of training is not aligned with the general goals of aikido. When you start focusing on scenario training then the focus becomes very, very narrow and people start worrying about technique etc, then you start limiting yourself to what I call the 80% solution, which is good enough for self defense, but will make for a bad learning dynamic for aikido. Not to mention the students become very confused about priorities and focuses.
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Old 08-04-2006, 10:31 AM   #62
Dazzler
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Daren Sims Wrote:



I think that this type of training is not aligned with the general goals of aikido. When you start focusing on scenario training then the focus becomes very, very narrow and people start worrying about technique etc, then you start limiting yourself to what I call the 80% solution, which is good enough for self defense, but will make for a bad learning dynamic for aikido. Not to mention the students become very confused about priorities and focuses.
I agree Kevin.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that it replaces 'Standard classes'.

For those willing to step outside of the tracks it does enable participants to explore what will and will not work under more intensive conditions.

Perhaps of more importance it can highlight how a verbal confrontation can go either way depending on how the participants respond to warning signs, body language, trigger words, peer pressure etc.

Its not for everyone - but a very interesting excercise and I have found it highly useful in recognising developing situations and moderating my own responses to avoid becoming embroiled in unnecessary altercations.

I was merely using it as an example of how aikido practice can be tailored to extract more targetted results.

If people choose not to try this then thats no problem, If people supplement their practice then thats no problem either.

Regards

D
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:11 PM   #63
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
ok Don - Is this a problem with aikido.....or the people doing aikido?

Aikido can hardly be criticised if the real barrier is someones reluctance to use it.

In my experience if you practice striking you improve, and it doesn't take long to gain some competency.

Whether someone would hit is another ball game and like so many threads that compare arts we get back to the same old conclusion - its the martial artist and not the martial art thats important.

D
It is not a problem with aikido. In fact its not a problem at all. It is a good thing that people have a reluctance to hurt other people. However, it is a problem for anyone who is interested in self defense or combat. If you can't get over it, you can't begin to learn self defense. That was my point.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 01:13 PM   #64
DonMagee
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, Don.... no more steroids for you and no more kung fu movies. There are levels between "not fighting" and "All Out Fighting" that can be helpful to a lot of people (including a lot of males).

But funny post. Made me laugh.


Mike
I was trying to be silly to make my point. I couuld use some more stroids though, I'm only 5'9" and 163 pounds. And you can never have enough kung fu movies.

But you are correct there are many levels of training that can be useful beyond all out fighting. My comment was geared more twoards mentally preparing yourself. Most people are not mentally prepared to hurt someone. If you can't bring yourself to hit a training partner in the gym, you are going to have a harder time doing it under stress during an attack.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:31 PM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Don Magee wrote:

Quote:
It is not a problem with aikido. In fact its not a problem at all. It is a good thing that people have a reluctance to hurt other people. However, it is a problem for anyone who is interested in self defense or combat. If you can't get over it, you can't begin to learn self defense. That was my point.
I agree. It is not a problem with aikido.

I do think aikido does a good job with the "soft fight" that is not adapting the "wounded sheep" victim posture that allows the proverbial wolves to cull you from the heard.

I love aikido as a methodlogy for escalation of force as it starts way before the fight actually happens and there is much, much, much we can and need to learn from this art. I think it is the best art I have seen for dealing with interpersonal conflict resolution in this aspect.

However, once we enter the realm of the "hard fight", things change dramatically. We may not be able to establish a kamae, distance, timing. We may not have a choice in the manner of where the fight begins and the range that it begin in. The violence we encounter could be very physical, very strong, very emotional, and overload us. Aikido does not provide us the "hard skills" to deal with this.

Over time, yeah philosophically you could argue that aikido refines you to deal with this through a gentle soft approach, but I personally don't by it. If you don't train at "full combat speed", you are not going to really know how you will react. This goes back to the whole "aliveness" concept that Matt Thorton addresses. Even though I don't agree with many of his crass concepts, unfortunately, he happens to be dead on at the core level.

So, to get back to the topic at hand, if we are not offering this type of training to women when we advertising "self defense", we are insulting them, and patronizing them, and setting them up for failure, while taking their money...which is wrong.
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Old 08-04-2006, 02:38 PM   #66
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Re: Women and Aikido

It has been proven over and over and over. I see it all the time in the military as I train and observe training. You will default to the habits, emotions, and the level of training that you practice.

I said it earlier, When I teach combatives as full combat speed with full gear on, I will give the guys a rubber knife to place in their K-bar sheath. Inevitably once we start rolling with "no rules", they will forget to pull the knife. Why because they never actually ever practice using it. If you ask them when not under pressure, they will always say "well I'd use my knife". In practice, when the pressure is on, most will "forget" that they have it and well default to empty hand since we practice this all the time.
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Old 08-05-2006, 02:25 AM   #67
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Re: Women and Aikido

I just got myself kind of familiar with break-falls... I love it but I think it's gonna hurt so bad if I do it on the street!
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:06 PM   #68
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Re: Women and Aikido

Not all things we do in aikido or budo transfer to the street or reality 100%. The skills we learn in class teach us things about balance, falling, timing, distance etc. It is up to us to figure out how we will employ those lessons in life daily.

For the record, I am a big proponent of the lessons and methods of aikido. I do think they have much to offer in teaching us skills that can be used in real life. But it is dangerous to take it all at face value and try and employ what we learn in the dojo as we practice it in the dojo.
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