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Old 08-03-2006, 09:47 AM   #26
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Looks to me like Yann is saying you need to do other things alongside aikido to excel in self defence - not quite the same thing..
I'm confused - Aikido is not self-defense now?
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:59 AM   #27
Mark Uttech
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Re: Women and Aikido

Aikido is self defense. Self defense takes time.
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Old 08-03-2006, 10:56 AM   #28
Tinyboy344
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Super uber long sweet ass time to be good with the techniques that's for sure, 2-3 years for self-defense I think??? As long as you learn how to move out of the opponent(s)' way fast enough and do something to him/them ???
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:05 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote:
Super uber long sweet ass time to be good with the techniques that's for sure, 2-3 years for self-defense I think??? As long as you learn how to move out of the opponent(s)' way fast enough and do something to him/them ???
That's a good point.

The problem with Aikido, from a "quickie self-defense" standpoint is that the techniques are generally complicated, always practiced with "cooperative partners", etc. So it takes time to be effective if that's what you're concentrating on.

Getting out of the way and applying a simple, sudden technique, such as some of the ones that Shioda demonstrates with his shoulder, palm, etc., would be nice... but without power behind them, those techniques aren't all that effective.

Making the point again, more power and more short techniques up front would be a general statement of a solution that would be helpful.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:31 AM   #30
Mark Uttech
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Re: Women and Aikido

More power and more short techniques up front would also take time
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:50 PM   #31
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Sure there are elements of self defense in aikido. I am only saying if self defense is your primary concern, and you define self defense that as the ability to adequately deal with violent, physical assault, aikido is not an effective methodology for training this ability. Also, as Mike Sigman points out, not too many martial art systems are.

One of the major issues is the set of assumptions concerning violent attack and/or the scope of "self defense".
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:22 PM   #32
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
I'm confused - Aikido is not self-defense now?
Correct. Aikido is not self defense. One of the fringe benefits of aikido training is that it enhances one's ability to "defend" one's self, but that is not its goal.
This is what the Aikikai Foundation has to say about what aikido is.
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:35 PM   #33
Aristeia
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
I'm confused - Aikido is not self-defense now?
If that's your only reason for training there are better choices.
If you have specific other reasons for training then Aikido is the best choice.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:37 PM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and Aikido

Heh. I don't know who wrote that, but it's pretty contradictory. Basically they're saying it's a "Bu do", but there is no Bu in it. What a conundrum. I suspect that translating that statement back into Japanese and reading it to a number of Aikikai uchi-deshi would result in some rather pronounced disagreements with the contents. Whoever wrote the English doesn't even understand what Ki in the universe is, so this may be not the exact feelings of some higher up at Aikikai, but the feelings of some do-good westerner "writing for Aikikai". I'd love to know.

Mike
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Old 08-03-2006, 02:21 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Women and Aikido

From the IYAF home page:
Quote:
The Yoshinkan 'House for Cultivating the Spirit' was founded after World War Two. This style of aikido is occasionally called the hard style because the training methods are a product of the gruelling period Soke Shioda spent as a student of Ueshiba. Yoshinkan Aikido has some 150 basic techniques which are practiced repeatedly, these enable the student to master the remaining ones, which total some 3000 overall.

Yoshinkan Aikido is not a sport. Aikido is the development and strengthening of the body and mind, and the practical side of Aikido must never be forgotten. However, Aikido is for all, irrespective of age, sex, race or culture.
Best,
Ron (short and sweet always works best for me...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:24 PM   #36
Mark Uttech
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Heh. I don't know who wrote that, but it's pretty contradictory. Basically they're saying it's a "Bu do", but there is no Bu in it. What a conundrum. I suspect that translating that statement back into Japanese and reading it to a number of Aikikai uchi-deshi would result in some rather pronounced disagreements with the contents. Whoever wrote the English doesn't even understand what Ki in the universe is, so this may be not the exact feelings of some higher up at Aikikai, but the feelings of some do-good westerner "writing for Aikikai". I'd love to know.

Mike
I'm really surprised at this post and the uncalled for viciousness hidden therein. I've never met you in person Mike, but this post is so surprising that you have to be having a bad day. In gassho
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:28 PM   #37
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

Yeah...Mike's a trip.
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:42 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I'm really surprised at this post and the uncalled for viciousness hidden therein. I've never met you in person Mike, but this post is so surprising that you have to be having a bad day. In gassho
What "viciousness" are you referring to, my little love-blossom? If you mean my opinion of that English-language web-opinion, say so. I know a couple of Ueshiba's uchi-deshi that would disagree with it and who have said "of course Aikido is a martial art". Yamada being one. What next after "viciousness".... "aikidophobe"?

Mike
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:00 PM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Women and Aikido

This is what Aikido Shobukan Dojo has on their website (Saotome Sensei's dojo in DC)

Purpose of Aikido
Aikido is different in its training purpose from other martial arts. Martial arts are often practiced to gain fighting prowess. Through his varied experiences, O Sensei realized that simply accumulating strength for fighting is ultimately futile. He saw the true purpose of Budo to be refinement of the individual. O Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and a mind that is calm, free from contentious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction.

O Sensei wrote:
"Budo is not felling the opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all beings in nature."
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Old 08-03-2006, 05:00 PM   #40
Upyu
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Re: Women and Aikido

Nice job on turning this topic from a dull been there done that, to something worth discussing guys


Myself, I take the meaning of self defense to be along the lines of a quickie fix. I don't think Aikido, even infused with Ki/Kokyu exercises would do the trick. Then again I dont think Mike was implying that to begin with since he wrote that the group he'd be interested in training would preferably be athletic women. Or in other words people that have a hard training ethic.


This diverges somewhat from the original topic, but like Mike, I've been thinking about what would happen if we were to take a bunch of mediocre college Judo guys, but with a good set of heads of their shoulders, teach them the Ki/Kokyu skills, make them work their asses off for about 2 years training their bodies first, then see what happens when we set them loose in tournaments.

Teaching this stuff takes time, but not years and years I think. The power, and finesse to which you can use it will certainly only get better with age. But I certainly think you can develop a body that can automatically use these skills to a practical degree within 2-3 years. Depends on the teacher, the student, and whether the student figures out exactly what it is he needs to strengthen refine in his body on a daily basis. Speaking from personal experience once you start to get it, technique can be swallowed up like candy. There's no need to "memorize" the stuff really since your body tends to react in a manner that adheres to the "principles" you've hammered into your body.

FWIW
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Old 08-03-2006, 05:09 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Speaking from personal experience once you start to get it, technique can be swallowed up like candy. There's no need to "memorize" the stuff really since your body tends to react in a manner that adheres to the "principles" you've hammered into your body.
Which is why the ki/kokyu way is considered "natural" way to move, in accordance with the "ki of the universe", etc. And why there may be "many techniques" but there is really only "one technique" when you get into this stuff. "All throws are kokyu throws", etc.

We oughta have a contest, Rob. You take a group and I take a similar group. *Then* it would be interesting, because it would be "your take on the ki/kokyu things" versus "my take on the ki/kokyu things". That's what the Asian martial arts really are. As it is, a lot of the current discussions are still at "should Aikido really need to include the ki/kokyu thing? I'm not sure, even though I don't really do them". Or "I'm don't know how to do the ki/kokyu things, but if you can't prove to me that you can fight with 'em (forget thousands of years of Asian history), I'm sceptical whether they're really needed".

Just joshin' around. LOL

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-03-2006, 05:10 PM   #42
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Myself, I take the meaning of self defense to be along the lines of a quickie fix. I don't think Aikido, even infused with Ki/Kokyu exercises would do the trick.
Agree 100% about the quickie fix. I don't think a short exposure to Aikido will result in effective self defense.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:18 PM   #43
Upyu
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
We oughta have a contest, Rob. You take a group and I take a similar group. *Then* it would be interesting, because it would be "your take on the ki/kokyu things" versus "my take on the ki/kokyu things".
Now THAT is a wee wee contest I'd enjoy
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:38 PM   #44
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Re: Women and Aikido

Most people come to martial arts the first thing in their heads is "I want to whup some ass/not get my ass whupped" that's why my friends looked at Aikido and said:"This is boring, man!" becuz b4 coming to the dojo and watch the class, he already did some research about Aikido and all he saw is noncompetitive, nonviolent so his mind's already settle with:"I cannot whup ass with Aikido becuz I dont see it as a selfdefense art" then he saw our "dance moves" and.....hell....

"So Aikido is like Tai Chi.... for senior citizens????"
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Old 08-03-2006, 08:19 PM   #45
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote:
"So Aikido is like Tai Chi.... for senior citizens????"
now you're getting it.
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:02 PM   #46
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Women and Aikido

From the sound of some of these posts, I'd almost think you guys have little faith in Aikido yourselves. :P

I hadn't been training in Aikido long, just under a year and a half, 6 days a week, 2.5 hours a day. Many people say arts like jujutsu give you the "tools" needed to defend yourself. In Aikido, I feel like I'm being given the blueprints and expected build my own "tools".

Did that make sense? Probably not.
Aikido is a key part of my life, and I will make it work. I just don't take statments like "Aikido is ineffective for self-defense" too literally as I think there's more meaning to it then that. But I've still got several years to go.

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 08-03-2006 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:46 PM   #47
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
I hadn't been training in Aikido long, just under a year and a half, 6 days a week, 2.5 hours a day
Your lucky brother!

I have a feeling most people don't get the chance to practice aikido 15 hours a week. Maybe more akin to 2 or 4?
1170 hours of aikido goes much farther self defense wise than 156 to 312 hours I would think.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:40 PM   #48
ksy
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Duy Trinh wrote:

"So Aikido is like Tai Chi.... for senior citizens????"
yeah, only thing is the "circles" you make with your hands and feet are faster, and you face spends a lot of time on the ground !
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:52 PM   #49
Mark Uttech
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Re: Women and Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What "viciousness" are you referring to, my little love-blossom? If you mean my opinion of that English-language web-opinion, say so. I know a couple of Ueshiba's uchi-deshi that would disagree with it and who have said "of course Aikido is a martial art". Yamada being one. What next after "viciousness".... "aikidophobe"?

Mike
I've gathered from your reply that you are clearly someone I do not want to know or meet.There's a lack of professionalism that sticks out like a piece of dog shit on your nose. In gassho my friend, and farewell.
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:57 PM   #50
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Re: Women and Aikido

I'm glad that you guys participate in this topic even though as you can see we haven't been talking about women and Aikido anymore since my friends are no longer interested in Aikido. It's really interesting to see your points of view and I appreciate your time posting replies and arguments.

I have to agree with Grant Waga that Roman Kremianski is a very lucky person to have that many hours with Aikido. I, myself, only spend 4 hrs a week on the mat. I try to go to as many seminars as I can in the future even though the first one almost killed me not because of the techniques or the nage but because I wasnt ready for it and ran out of breath after 2.5 hrs.
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