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Old 08-02-2006, 03:51 PM   #51
DanielR
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Neil wrote:
Oh..sorry: a few hundred poorly aimed rockets. Better? <snip> Number of Hezbollah rocket attacks: 210
A little, but not quite. 210 rocket attacks today. Over the course of the conflict - I'm guessing in the thousands. Seems to me, this makes quite a bit of a difference if one wants to convey an objective point of view.

Daniel
 
Old 08-02-2006, 03:57 PM   #52
Neil Mick
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Instead of writting your congress member etc.. why don't you go to Israel and protest their government. Try and put pressure on them to stop what their doing.
Been there: tried that.

But it amazes me the number of times I've heard the ever-popular refrain of "if you don't like what's going on: why don't you go to...?"

So, instead of my stock response, Grant: here's my tailored-one:

Because, the problem is right here. I have little doubt that hostilities would end tomorrow, if Bush were to get on the phone to Olmert and tell him to stand down, or else no aid.

Quote:
Go to Lebanon and help evacuate people or try and reach the hezbollah somehow and convince them to stop.
Riiight...it'll all stop, when Hezbollah stops...uh huh.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 03:59 PM   #53
Neil Mick
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote:
A little, but not quite. 210 rocket attacks today. Over the course of the conflict - I'm guessing in the thousands. Seems to me, this makes quite a bit of a difference if one wants to convey an objective point of view.
The proof of the pudding is in not how many firecrackers you lob: but in how many people lie dead, when the smoke clears.

The ratio now stands about 20:1, most of those 20 being civilians. But, thanks for the correction.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-02-2006 at 04:01 PM.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 04:09 PM   #54
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:

Because, the problem is right here. I have little doubt that hostilities would end tomorrow, if Bush were to get on the phone to Olmert and tell him to stand down, or else no aid.


For that matter, he could probably say that to lebanon as well. It's strange that we support governments that are aggressive to us. We feed the people of N. Korea, so that their govt. can spend their money on missiles.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
 
Old 08-02-2006, 04:10 PM   #55
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Wrong. There IS a "third way." and I'm surprised that you don't even consider it. They COULD simply agree to peace talks and a prisoner exchange.
and encourage more kidnappings.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
 
Old 08-02-2006, 04:11 PM   #56
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Fine. Good military strategies require planning. But let's not kid ourselves that this is over some IDF hostages and a few poorly aimed rockets lobbed at Haifa.
Actually, it's over years of attacks by Hezbollah and the killing of a number of Israeli civilians and military personnel. It's fairly simple... if Hezbollah never attacked Israel, Israel would never attack Hezbollah. Why don't I see any condemnation of Iran and Syria? I don't mind seeing Israel's faults brought out, but it's suspicious when all the screaming is about Israel, Neil. And of course that's a silly comment on my part because everyone knows that you're simply and anti-American screamer.
Quote:
Israel has made it clear that it is not interested in ceasefire, or negotiations. Nor, it is painfully clear: is it interested in the welfare of Lebanese civilians...contrary to international law.
"International law"? The UN has called for the disarming of Hezbollah, Neil. Where have you screamed about that not being done? Hezbollah has been responsible for the killing of American civilians, blowing up of planes, deliberate civilian attacks (as opposed to military attacks), using civilians as shields, etc..... but why don't you complain about that? Because this is another of your anti-American rants, utlimately. Why do you pretend differently? Show me some rants of yours about the deaths, etc., committed by Islamists, the Arabs in Sudan, the corruption at the UN, etc. Nothing. Your rants are purely anti-American and anti-Jew... very trendy; very California; very Santa Cruz.
Quote:
It's one thing to make a good plan in preparation for a military attack: quite another to proceed with it, heedless of the suffering you've caused.
I notice the number of "women and children" killed in the building at Qana has been quietly lowered, BTW. And no one yet has explained how the building didn't collapse until 8 hours after the airstrike, etc. Meaning simply that there are a number of unanswered questions about exactly what happened, despite Neil already accusing Israel of doing it. Which post number is the one where you scream at Hezbollah for launching rockets deliberately from within a civilian-populated area, Neil? Just tell me the post number and I'll go read it. Since you're so ethical and such a logical thinker, I'm sure you must have screamed about it somewhere.

I.e..... where is the balance in your discussions? We already know you hate the Jooz.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-02-2006, 04:26 PM   #57
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
and encourage more kidnappings.
Wrong. Read your history: Israel has agreed to this strategy before, when outright aggression failed.


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
you're simply and anti-American screamer.

this is another of your anti-American rants, utlimately.

Your rants are purely anti-American and anti-Jew... very trendy; very California; very Santa Cruz.

I.e..... where is the balance in your discussions? We already know you hate the Jooz.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Oh, Mikey, Mikey, Mikey...

You're so predictable...like a broken record stuck on the same old song: here you come with your "anti-American bias!" "Hater of Jews (note spelling)!" rant.

SO predictable.

I won't bother to respond to each of your points, as they are adequately expressed in the mainstream media (but I do find your attempt to downplay the Qana massacre a bit stomach-turning).

NOR, will I bother to rise to your usual Left-baiting...

But, I WILL take this opportunity to "balance the posts," as it were.

If you bothered to read my blog, you'd know that I took part in helping to organize an international Aikido conference in 2005. There were about a half dozen Israeli Aikidoists there, and I consider them my friends. It comforts me (a little bit) that they are mostly living outside the targeted areas (I hope): but I know that they are under a great deal of stress, right now. They, too: are in my thoughts and my prayers.

In point of fact, Mike: my concern partly stems from my wish for Israel to survive. From my perspective, this military operation is about the worst thing that Israel can do for itself. This assault will, IMO, insure more Arab hatred toward Israel, more homeless and desperate refugee's, more membership drives for extremist groups.

It saddens me to see people of any nationality die for an empty cause. But some of us learned from the lessons of Vietnam, of Afghanistan, of Iraq. You simply cannot solve the problems of a paramilitary insurgency, by methods of conventional warfare, and occupation.

It's a terrible thing, that people have to die to relearn this terrible lesson. I guess, we'll all just have to wait for people like you, to catch up in their education.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-02-2006 at 04:28 PM.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 05:06 PM   #58
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I won't bother to respond to each of your points, as they are adequately expressed in the mainstream media
The main question was for you to point me to the posts where you show your balanced discussion. There are none, are there?
Quote:
(but I do find your attempt to downplay the Qana massacre a bit stomach-turning).
Tell me why. I saw people print the same thing about the "Jenin Massacre" and how anyone questioning it was somehow subhuman (or even worse: Jewish). Yet the Jenin "massacre" turned out to be incorrect. I asked you how you KNOW the Israelis did a "massacre" in a place where Hezbollah, *contrary to international law* was deliberately attacking Israel while hiding in a civilian area. You haven't answered.
Quote:
If you bothered to read my blog, you'd know that I took part in helping to organize an international Aikido conference in 2005.
Kewl. And your posts that balance the anti-Israeli posts are which ones?????
Quote:
In point of fact, Mike: my concern partly stems from my wish for Israel to survive.
Ah... THAT'S why you singularly blame them. You're doing it as a token of your great concern for them. I should have known.
Quote:
This assault will, IMO, insure more Arab hatred toward Israel, more homeless and desperate refugee's, more membership drives for extremist groups.
Er.... I don't know if you realize it, but it's in the Koran to hate Jews, Neil. War upon Jews is called for as is war upon Christians. Poor Hindus are hated just because they're there and they make good slaves. All this has been going on far longer than the "State of Israel" excuse, Neil, so don't worry about making nice to the Muslims so they won't "hate the Jooz". That's a pretty specious reason and you know it.
Quote:
It saddens me to see people of any nationality die for an empty cause. But some of us learned from the lessons of Vietnam, of Afghanistan, of Iraq. You simply cannot solve the problems of a paramilitary insurgency, by methods of conventional warfare, and occupation.
Oh, Neil.... you're so noble. Sighhhhhhh. Now where are those balanced posts?????

Regards to Santa Cruz

Mike
 
Old 08-02-2006, 05:12 PM   #59
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Re: World War 3?

I'm home from work now and I promised myself I wouldn't sign on and make new posts, but conversation on aikiweb rarely generates this much participation and interest.

I was waiting for someone to play the "anti-Jew"/"anti-Semite" card. It usually happens on most forums at some point and almost always when someone says something negative about Israel. First off, no one here has said "Jews" where "Israeli" was more appropriate. Maybe I missed something, but so far as I can tell, the conversation has been reasonably clean in this respect. Second, not all Jews are semitic/Israeli. Many are born right here in N. America. Wierd. How about we just agree not to get into the whole "you're a Jew hater" business since I'm sure we've all seen that comment make most good discussions go right down the sh**ter. As for anti-Americanism, well, in referense to Niel, he's already explained his grievance since his tax dollars are headed straight into some poor Lebanese family's home.

Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Actually, it's over years of attacks by Hezbollah and the killing of a number of Israeli civilians and military personnel. It's fairly simple... if Hezbollah never attacked Israel, Israel would never attack Hezbollah.
Keep in mind that the reason that Hezbollah even exists is because of Israel's former occupation of S. Lebanon...for 18 years. Hezbollah formed and kicked them out. This only ended a few years ago, but does it finally explain why Hezbollah kids don't play with Israeli kids? On top of that, it is debatable what happened first, whether Hezbollah attacked first or Israel. Even in the story presented 3 weeks ago, some news sources have said that the captured Israeli soldiers were picked up on the Lebanese side of the border. Given the supporting arguments that I've read, I'm more inclined to believe that, but most of you will probably think that's just more bias talking. Maybe it is, but that's the way I see it.

James Davis wrote:
Quote:
and encourage more kidnappings.
I hate these buzzwords. Israel used them during the whole Gilad Shalit ordeal. "Kiddnapped" and "hostage" were pretty popular. Personally, I like to call them Prisoners of War. Why are the 10,000+ POWs in Israel not called "kidnapped hostages"? The reason is simple: propaganda. It gains international sympathy for Israel, who btw, seems to always get their say while the Arab parties are left in silence.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 05:14 PM   #60
Mark Uttech
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Re: World War 3?

Theories abound. Although aikido is now being taught and practiced in 87 countries, half a million children under 18 are being used as 'child soldiers' in 85 countries.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 05:41 PM   #61
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
First off, no one here has said "Jews" where "Israeli" was more appropriate.
I think even the media has recognized and commented on the well-known joke that "Just because you don't like Israel doesn't mean you don't like Jews". I'm assuming you're not saying it seriously?

I asked for the balance. Where's yours? Point me to the posts discussing the various international laws Hezbollah broke, etc.... because they have actually broken laws regarding borders, kidnapping, using civilians as shields, etc. There's plenty to dissect on both sides... I was questioning why it's so one-sided.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-02-2006, 06:10 PM   #62
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
and encourage more kidnappings.
Yep - that's exactly what happens:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...d_x.htm?csp=34

"A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.

He said Hezbollah had expected "the usual, limited response" from Israel after the two soldiers were seized by guerrillas on Israel's side of the border on July 12.

In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon, seizing Hezbollah officials and briefly targeting specific strongholds in southern Lebanon.

Komati said his group had anticipated negotiations to swap the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese held in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it has in past prisoner exchanges."

It's all a game to hezbollah....
 
Old 08-02-2006, 06:12 PM   #63
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Re: World War 3?

Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
I think even the media has recognized and commented on the well-known joke that "Just because you don't like Israel doesn't mean you don't like Jews". I'm assuming you're not saying it seriously?
I'm not 100% on what you mean with this one. I have no problem with Jews, and as far as I can tell, no one here but you has equated "Jew" with "Israeli" when you called Niel "anti-Jew". That was my point.

Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:
Point me to the posts discussing the various international laws Hezbollah broke, etc.... because they have actually broken laws regarding borders, kidnapping, using civilians as shields, etc. There's plenty to dissect on both sides... I was questioning why it's so one-sided.
Of course, Hezbollah has broken laws, even though they still don't technically qualify as military. So far, the biggest problem is civilian killing. I've said this before. I've also shared my feelings towards "kidnapping" in previous posts. The technical term is "prisoner", which is not contrary to international law. I've also already commented on Hezbollah using civilians as shields and why I think that is BS propaganda. Read back a bit. I've only posted today, so you shouldn't have to go far.

If you're wondering why the discussion is one-sided, have a look at how one-sided the fight is. Who is committing the greater atrocities? What is the GREATER evil? That's where I'm focusing.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 07:52 PM   #64
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Of course, Hezbollah has broken laws, even though they still don't technically qualify as military. So far, the biggest problem is civilian killing. I've said this before. I've also shared my feelings towards "kidnapping" in previous posts. The technical term is "prisoner", which is not contrary to international law. I've also already commented on Hezbollah using civilians as shields and why I think that is BS propaganda. Read back a bit. I've only posted today, so you shouldn't have to go far.

If you're wondering why the discussion is one-sided, have a look at how one-sided the fight is. Who is committing the greater atrocities? What is the GREATER evil? That's where I'm focusing.
I don't really respond to nonsense posts. Hezbollah, part of the Lebanese government (Israel could legally attack the Lebanese government for allowing Hezbollah to kill and kidnap Israelis (I hope you don't think this is the first time Hezbollah has done this... tell me you're not that silly), has attacked Israel across the internationally-recognized borders, after years of firing rockets, killing Israeli civilians and killing Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah has been responsible for many hundres of US deaths and has hijacked planes, blown them up, killed civilians, etc. And you're saying Israel is the "greater evil"? This is nonsense. You're not able to reason because your ideas are already fixed... as are Neil's. Start looking at both sides of the issue instead of just hating Jews because it's trendy.


Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-02-2006, 08:43 PM   #65
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Re: World War 3?

Mike, could you at least show me the courtesy that I show you? I don't understand why you feel the need to talk down to me. I find your post very condescending and would appreciate it if you could at least be polite.

Thus far I have made every effort to avoid confusing Jews with Israelis. I'm afraid that the confusion is on your end, not mine. You are being petty and irrational by saying that I hate Jews because I disagree with Israel's response to Hezbollah.

Although I can't say that I know of everything that Hezbollah has done, I've heard nothing of them hijacking planes or taking/murdering hundreds of US hostages. If this is the case, then I'm truly sorry. Know that I have no love for such tragedies.

Even if Hezbollah killed hundreds of US civilians, drove a plane straight into whatever, can someone please explain to me why thousands...sorry...hundreds of thousands of civilians in Lebanon deserve to pay the cost? We're talking people just going to work, sitting in class, getting ready for breakfast...just living normally. Have you seen the photos of kids with half a head left? How about the burns from white phosphorous (which is a banned weapon)? How about the half-buried corpses of so many women, men and children? The total devastation of civilian infrastructure? How about bombed hospitals in Lebanon? Have a look. Just type it into google, you'll find plenty. Then explain the "measured response" of the Israelis.

You're right, my ideas are fixed. Give me good solid reasons backed by evidence why Israel deserves any support for this disgusting atrocity. Change my mind. I'll even help you out a bit: You won't do it simply by talking down to me, calling me a bigot, or thinking I'm naive.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 09:25 PM   #66
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Re: World War 3?

Neil, the difference between a 240 rockets in a day and 240 rockets in 3 weeks seems like a big deal. Just whatevering it adds to bias don't you think? If we're going to play the attrocity game lets call a spade a spade and not dismiss one sides while throwing the spotlight on the other.

Quote:
Wrong. There IS a "third way." and I'm surprised that you don't even consider it. They COULD simply agree to peace talks and a prisoner exchange.
Ya, I guess they could. Do you really understand the scope of hate we're talking about here? Generations born into hate just putting their anger down and shaking hands? I wish that could happen, having been in simular situations I just can't put too much faith in that hapopening.

You've said you've been there and tried that. To what end? You've physically gone to Israel and interacted with the government?

I'm not so sure everythign would stop if the US said okay guys everyone out of the pool.
Quote:
Riiight...it'll all stop, when Hezbollah stops...uh huh.
Well if everything DIDN'T stop then Israel would clearly be the agressor.
Would Lebanon be in this situation if they wouldn't have kidnapped those soldiers?

Tanner,
Quote:
Hezbollah has very limited military capabilites, partially because they are simply a paramilitary group likely without any official funding from the Lebanese gov't. As far as I know, they have rockets for long range and rifles for short range. They have no tactical fighters, no tanks, no long range artillery, and no way to get past Israel's perimiter defenses for an invasion. Israel, on the other hand, has all that and more.
The US thought they were safe from terrorist attack too. They may not have any methods of getting past Israel's defenses for an all out invasion but they don't have to. Thats not how they operate. They go into Israel and kidnap people. They go into Israel and blow themselves up at crowded markets. Tanks are expensive, people aren't.

Israel could ask the government in lebanon to take care of the hezbollah threat but lets be serious. What would Hezbollah do if the fragile lebanese government came to their door and said that? They'd get a big FU and told to go away.

Quote:
"International law"? The UN has called for the disarming of Hezbollah, Neil. Where have you screamed about that not being done? Hezbollah has been responsible for the killing of American civilians, blowing up of planes, deliberate civilian attacks (as opposed to military attacks), using civilians as shields, etc
Well said Mike.

Quote:
Even if Hezbollah killed hundreds of US civilians, drove a plane straight into whatever, can someone please explain to me why thousands...sorry...hundreds of thousands of civilians in Lebanon deserve to pay the cost?
They don't but you could ask why Israel citizens have to live in fear because of Hezbollah running unchecked and out of control in lebanon. Is it fair for them?

Israel is going to face the same problem I've been saying the US has in Iraq. Destroy a building killing civilians by accident and all of a sudden you just convinced 3 more dudes to join the 'bad guys'.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
 
Old 08-02-2006, 09:32 PM   #67
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Re: World War 3?

Oh sorry. I saw this thread title and thought it was Dan and Mike's thread.
 
Old 08-02-2006, 09:42 PM   #68
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote:
Oh sorry. I saw this thread title and thought it was Dan and Mike's thread.
It is Mick and Mike's thread.
 
Old 08-03-2006, 12:24 AM   #69
Neil Mick
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Tanner Hukezalie wrote:
I was waiting for someone to play the "anti-Jew"/"anti-Semite" card. It usually happens on most forums at some point and almost always when someone says something negative about Israel. First off, no one here has said "Jews" where "Israeli" was more appropriate. Maybe I missed something, but so far as I can tell, the conversation has been reasonably clean in this respect.
Tanner,

You're so right, on this one. Up to this point, I was wondering when someone would cry "anti-Semite!" Sure enough, it had to be our very own lurking "not-quite-quasi-Aikidoist," Mikey.

And, his MO doesn't seem to change, does it? He comes in hard and fast with the name-calling and racist-baiting, and then he tsk-tsk's all the rampant name-calling, abounding in the posts.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I don't really respond to nonsense posts.
Good advice...I think I'll take it, in regard to your anti-Semite fishing expeditions. Go find some other fish to catch, troll...this one's not biting.
 
Old 08-03-2006, 12:29 AM   #70
Neil Mick
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Re: World War 3?

Grant,

No time to respond at length, but I thought I'd briefly touch on your first point...

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
Neil, the difference between a 240 rockets in a day and 240 rockets in 3 weeks seems like a big deal. Just whatevering it adds to bias don't you think? If we're going to play the attrocity game lets call a spade a spade and not dismiss one sides while throwing the spotlight on the other.
Sorry, but I was responding to Daniel's post. It was an error: not an attempt to downplay the deaths. But even so: I still hold to my earlier post:

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Number of Israeli civilian casualties: 20 dead
Number of Israeli wounded: 418
Number of Israeli's displaced: 300,000

Number of Lebanese civilian casualties: 400-832 (reports vary)
Number of Lebanese wounded: 3243
Number of Lebanese displaced: 900,000+

The proof of the pudding is in not how many firecrackers you lob: but in how many people lie dead, when the smoke clears.

The ratio now stands about 20:1, most of those 20 being civilians. But, thanks for the correction.
It's not in how many missiles you lob: it's in how many people died. And, you surprise me. Weren't you the one who said that number-crunching was inappropriate? Tsk.
 
Old 08-03-2006, 12:30 AM   #71
Neil Mick
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
It is Mick and Mike's thread.
Now THAT is funny!!
 
Old 08-03-2006, 12:32 AM   #72
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Re: World War 3?

Listened today to this interview with a young Israeli writer. He said something very simple, quite naive but it did strike a cord with me: this is a strange war. All sides said they weren't interested in widening the conflict too much; there seems to be a general consensus that it should be over in a week, or two, or three; that this time is not going to be sufficient for Israel to finish off Hezbollah completely; that some sort of political solution is going to have to be found. If this is true, why not finish it today?
Problem is, a rocket landing 70km inside Israel strikes a totally different cord.

Tanner, the tone of your posts is such that I would be surprised if someone ever takes the time to debate the underlying issues of this conflict with you. Indeed, why bother if you yourself are saying that there is no room for debate on this one and that your ideas are fixed?

For what I think is a reasonable, no-nonsense military and political analysis of this war from the Israeli perspective I would recommend Ze'ev Schiff at Haaretz.com; some of his recent analysis articles are here, here and here.

Last edited by DanielR : 08-03-2006 at 12:36 AM.

Daniel
 
Old 08-03-2006, 03:36 AM   #73
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Re: World War 3?

I won't even bother taking sides here! What worries me - from a completely uneducated viewpoint, which possibly describes that of most people exposed to only the mainstream "fluff" media - is that the conflict between the Israelis and Arabs is too complex to be easily bargained over between a set of groups. As yet there seems to be no common set of issues that can even be put on the table and compromised on by all influential groups. It's not like South Africa where civil war was avoided by everyone agreeing how to live together within the same borders: here there are groups which do not even accept the legitimacy of the Israeli state, under which circumstances one can only see a continued struggle for survival by the Israelis, and fall-out all over the region. Bah, perhaps if the situation gets so bad for all concerned that something simply must be compromised on for pure survival, then negotiations can get underway. Idon't have much hope of that happening in my lifetime though...
 
Old 08-03-2006, 05:48 AM   #74
Mark Uttech
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Re: World War 3?

I see that my attempt to create a diversion (post #60) did not work. As the Japanese say with a shrug: "so desu ka."
 
Old 08-03-2006, 06:46 AM   #75
dps
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Posts: 2,282
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
I see that my attempt to create a diversion (post #60) did not work. As the Japanese say with a shrug: "so desu ka."
The righteous are not so easily diverted.
 

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