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Old 08-25-2006, 01:31 PM   #326
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Is this some sort of joke? You equate an "inquiry" with the unprovoked crossing of international boundaries to commit war crimes against Israel?
first of all i'm sorry for what i said. obviously i got emotional. to be honest with you, my parents and i were initially thrilled at the chance to wipe out hezbollah from lebanon. but my thrill turned to horror when not only was my country getting bombed back to the stone age, but the IDF wasn't getting the job done either.

i don't have much of a reason to hate Israel, but i certainly have a huge grip against the IDF. and i'm sure most Israeli citizens agree with me.

Hezbollah, IMO, are nothing but troublemakers for Lebanon and Israel. I'm sure that much we can hopefully agree on. I'm not defending Hezbollah by any means, i'm going directly against what you're saying about how Israel was *fully* justified in levelling an entire nation. partially, maybe, but your defense is highly one sided.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Are you insane? Do you think the attacks, kidnappings, and murders by Hezbollah were legal????? Even Neil Mick isn't that crazy.
Israel does the same exact things. so did Hamas, and Hezbollah. this argument is moot and dead: we all do it. why bother pointing fingers regarding this specific issue.

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 08-25-2006 at 01:36 PM.
 
Old 08-25-2006, 01:45 PM   #327
Ron Tisdale
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Re: World War 3?

Heck, even the US has been known to kidnap the odd terrorist or two, and fly them around the globe a bit to keep their where abouts unknown.

You can do that when you are a super power...

Ron (yech, sometimes I really don't like the reality of the world)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 08-25-2006, 01:50 PM   #328
Mike Sigman
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Israel does the same exact things. so did Hamas, and Hezbollah. this argument is moot and dead: we all do it. why bother pointing fingers regarding this specific issue.
No, Israel does NOT do "the exact same things". If all the Arab countries would quit attacking Israel, Israel would do nothing. There would be peace in the region. This moral relativism that somehow Israel attacks Arab countries, uses human bombs, deliberately attacks civilians, lies at every agreement, etc., like the Arabs do is wrong, even to a casual observer. Like many people I used to try to think even-handedly about the Arabs and Israel... no longer. We have an Islamic problem. As long as Islamic people keep justifying it, they put themselves in the same boat. Which means they deserve whatever ultimate solution Islam brings on itself. You need to start by being able to scream at Arabs every time they start or do something wrong. Trying to make it "equal" is what is turning so many people against Islamic people. (Well, except for our Jew-haters who still hope that WWII can be continued with a pogrom or two).

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 08-25-2006, 02:10 PM   #329
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, Israel does NOT do "the exact same things". If all the Arab countries would quit attacking Israel, Israel would do nothing.
uhhh Mike,

Hamas and Hezbollah both got started as a result of Israeli occupation. Sure, Palestinians can stop attacking Israel, but they have a right to a home and a bed, don't they?

and i can't stand Hezbollah, but i can't blame them, either. southern Lebanon got pounded and occupied in the early 80's. you plant a seed, water it, and it will grow.

yes, this is my one-sided Arab point of view. Israel deserves peace, health, and prosperity. they are surrounded by people that hate them, and should use force when necessary.

just keep in mind that when there's over 30 years of continuous war, no one is innocent.






Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

(Well, except for our Jew-haters who still hope that WWII can be continued with a pogrom or two).

FWIW

Mike
Mike,

"Jew Hater" is such a harsh term. you're throwing it around too loosely. i don't think anybody here hates jews, especially in the literal sense of the word. plus your mentioning of WWII implies that we got some Nazi's in here, which just isn't true.
 
Old 08-25-2006, 02:22 PM   #330
Mike Sigman
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
Hamas and Hezbollah both got started as a result of Israeli occupation. Sure, Palestinians can stop attacking Israel, but they have a right to a home and a bed, don't they?
Er, without arguing ancient history (let's not forget that "Jew" is a word derived from "Judea", their homeland, which the Arabs try to call "The West Bank" to hide the fact).... you just basically said that Arabs have a "right ot a home and a bed" and that justifies attacking Israel. We have a right to peace in the world... does that justify killing the war-starting and primitive Arabs? Be careful of your reasoning; it works 2 ways, not just against the Jews.
Quote:
just keep in mind that when there's over 30 years of continuous war, no one is innocent.
Israel has not done a single unprovoked attack against the Arabs. To say, once again, that they are somehow "equal in their misdeeds" is wrong. If you can only argue emotion... do you think that puts you on the side of logic and good? Or do you think it puts you on the side of chaos?
Quote:
"Jew Hater" is such a harsh term. you're throwing it around too loosely. i don't think anybody here hates jews, especially in the literal sense of the word. plus your mentioning of WWII implies that we got some Nazi's in here, which just isn't true.
The Koran calls Jews "pigs" and suggests killing them. It is built-in hate against a specific group of people. Let's call a spade a spade, shall we? I think it will help speed the world to a resolution of the Islam crisis if we stop pretending that being nice to the Arabs, etc., will make them turn nice. It has never happened in all of history. The brief lull of the break-up of the Ottoman Empire is now over... the war with the West has begun again. Let the Muslims start calling out the misdeeds of their own people instead of always blaming the Jews and the West, would be my suggestion. People have noticed that Muslim voices against Muslim misdeeds are very faint and that the misdeeds only appear to be getting worse... and that is not anyone's doing but the Arab world's.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-27-2006, 08:19 AM   #331
Amir Krause
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Israel has not done a single unprovoked attack against the Arabs
Sorry Mike, but this is not stricly true historicly.

Even as an Israeli I know Israel initiated the 56 war against Egypt. Israel did have more then one justification, including multiple penetrations of "Fedayun" (the 1950s name for Arab terrorists) into Israel (note, this was long before the 1967 occupation of Gaza and "Western Bank" / Juda & Shumaria ).

Yet, The historical fact is that Israel intitiated this attack with the urging of France and the UK. The main Israeli reason was to pre-empt against the Egyptians arms-race which Israel could not have faced at the time.

Thus, if one so chooses, he could find Arab provocation as the reasoning for the 56 war, but Israe did choose its war and the reasons for the war were not a specific provocation.



The same could be said with regard to most of the Israeli military operations in the Lebanese border. At 1978, 1982-2000 and the last "war". There were significant provocations that drove the Israeli public to support these operations for their first few days, but, the provocations were not the reasons for the war.

The reason for the current war was the Lebanese inability to disarm Hezbollah, which has become a real threat to Israeli security. Hezbollah became a threat Israel could not continue to grow. Further, a continuation of provocations since the 2000 Israeli retreat from all the Lebanese territoriy (even the UN approved this), has proven HA has every intention to continue harrasing Israel and kill Israelis. HA knew a full blown war would destroy it and thus prefered attacking Israel in small scale operations and asked for a "cease fire" immidiatly after each operation, until HA would be ready to attack again.


In the last few days, there are also multiple reports of Israeli soldiers from the battles, those soldiers were very frustrated since they saw HA observers targeting them from Mosque tops and populated areas, yet, when they asked for support fire (artilary or air) they were refused since the source of the fire was concidered "civilian". Thus Luc, I guess even the description of destruction is relative.

Further, some of the descriptions you gave seem to be of houses destryed due to HA fire on them, while the Israeli soldiers were inside (HA used anti-tank missiles in quantities larger then most armies have).


Amir

P.S.


I am was trying to find out about the precentage of Israeli Arabs who died in the last war. Was there some kind of neglect and discrimination as Neal claimed?
and if there was, who is to blame?

So far I found out the following facts:
a. About 50% of the Israeli civilian casualities in this war were Arabs.
b. Slightly less then 50% of the population in the areas attacked is Arab (it is difficult to estimate since this depends on the definition of the areas attacked and I have not seen any exact statistic about it, further one should decide if he counts the Druz and Cherkes populations as Arab, or does he only count the Muslims - saw some such casuality numbers which ignored the christian Arabs).
c. There is not any reliable statistic with regard to the number of people who remained in the Israeli North. Thus there is no distinctive statistic with Regard to Jews and Arabs.

due to the above, any attempt of accusing anyone based on disproportional casuality numbers should be seen with very sceptical eyes.


The Sheltering for Arabs is gnerally considered as less adequate. After being unable to find reliable data on who is responsible for public shelters construction, I asked about this in a lawyers forum, and was told the responsible party is the local councils, which have to finance and planing the shelter (planing= ground allocation - not engineering). Turns out the Israeli Military and defence ministry
only defines criteria for proper sheltering, and there the responsibility ends. The Local counciles in the Arab settlments are Arab, thus there is no justification for the scream of "discrimination"!

I started thinking of the larger combined cities, but at those areas, many houses have Jews in one apartment and Arabs in the next. Thus, no discrimination with regard to sheltering is possible. The only segregated areas are very old neighberhoods. But in those areas, I doubt it is technicly possible to build a shelter due to the density of those places. As a matter of fact, the ambulance drivers had a great problem in entering such an old neighberhood in Nazerth when it was hit. I doubt the locals would had been supportive of their local council had it sent several large tractors and trucks to build a public shelter two years ago, when the possibility of a missile attacking seemed ridiculus, and the likelihood of it falling on an Arabic populated area seemed even thiner.

Actually, many people who stayed in north Israel did not go to the public shelter, they had their own private shelter built as one of the rooms of their apartment. This type of sheltering has been mandated by law since 1992, and any house built or significantly renovated since then should have such a shelter. Again, the Gov. placed the obligation on the people, and the Gov. remains blamless.


Another claim raised was about the lack of computerized warning system in Nazerth for the first attack on the city. The Israeli army built a very complex computerized alert system and it had not been installed there. At first I thought this was an issue of discrimination, but then I read in Haaretz (the Israeli Liberal paper which normally throws such accusations at the army) the reason for not connecting the system was a refusal of the ity counsil, since the system automaticly operates a siren on the national memorial day. Surprise, but once again, no discrimination.


I did find one definite issue of discrimination. It took the army and Governement several weeks until they remembered to issue explenations of "proper civil defense behavior" in languages other then Hebrew. Personaly I find this issue to repeatedly be one of the most disterbing in the Israeli Govt. behavior towards our Arab civilians. Unlike the US, Israel has official language - Hebrew, and second languge - Arabic. Yet, most signs and documents the Govt. is responsible for can be found in Hebrew and English, not in Arabic. One should point out other minorities in Israel such as the Jewish newly immigrants from Russia and Ethyopya (two distinct largecommunities) had similar problems, thus one should doubt this was a deliberate act of discrimination and should consider it as more of neglection.


My final result is the Israeli Govt. did perform minor discrimination against Arabs, but mostly by neglect. Yet most of the responsibility for sheltering themselvs lies on the Arabs (just like it does for the Jews). The Israeli govt. main fault is in trasnfering duties it should have had, to other parties which in some cases were not up to the task, and in not supporting any of the population.


I have read some claims of much more severe discrimination with regard to compensations. And I know of a very big problem with many Arab villages and town with regard to overall planing.
 
Old 08-27-2006, 08:42 AM   #332
Mike Sigman
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
Sorry Mike, but this is not stricly true historicly.

Even as an Israeli I know Israel initiated the 56 war against Egypt. Israel did have more then one justification, including multiple penetrations of "Fedayun" (the 1950s name for Arab terrorists) into Israel (note, this was long before the 1967 occupation of Gaza and "Western Bank" / Juda & Shumaria ).

Yet, The historical fact is that Israel intitiated this attack with the urging of France and the UK.
Hi Amir:

I as careful to say "unprovoked". Israel was certainly "provoked" in 1956. Your problem is that Israel is so used to being blamed by the Europeans and Arabs for everything wrong in the Middle East that you've come to accept the blame and think the 1956 war was "unprovoked".

Even though Egypt and some other countries (Jordan was one, IIRC) signed a formal "armistice" treaty in 1949, hostilities toward Irsrael continued. The first manifestation of this was the closing of the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping. On August 9, 1949, the UN Mixed Armistice Commission upheld Israel's complaint that Egypt was illegally blocking the canal.

On September 1, 1951, the Security Council ordered Egypt to open the Canal to Israeli shipping. Egypt refused to comply.

The Egyptian Foreign Minister, Muhammad Salah al-Din, said early in 1954:

The Arab people will not be embarrassed to declare: We shall not be satisfied except by the final obliteration of Israel from the map of the Middle East (Al-Misri, April 12, 1954).

In 1955, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser began to import arms from the Soviet Bloc to build his arsenal for the confrontation with Israel. In the short-term, however, he employed a new tactic to prosecute Egypt's war with Israel. He announced it on August 31, 1955:

Egypt has decided to dispatch her heroes, the disciples of Pharaoh and the sons of Islam and they will cleanse the land of Palestine....There will be no peace on Israel's border because we demand vengeance, and vengeance is Israel's death.

Then came the "fedayeen" attacks on Israel. The terrorist attacks violated the armistice agreement provision that prohibited the initiation of hostilities by paramilitary forces; nevertheless, it was Israel that was condemned by the UN Security Council for its counterattacks.

The escalation continued with the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, and Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal in July 1956. On October 14, Nasser made clear his intent:

I am not solely fighting against Israel itself. My task is to deliver the Arab world from destruction through Israel's intrigue, which has its roots abroad. Our hatred is very strong. There is no sense in talking about peace with Israel. There is not even the smallest place for negotiations.

Less than two weeks later, on October 25, Egypt signed a tripartite agreement with Syria and Jordan placing Nasser in command of all three armies.

The continued blockade of the Suez Canal and Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping, combined with the increased fedayeen attacks and the bellicosity of recent Arab statements, prompted Israel, with the backing of Britain and France, to attack Egypt on October 29, 1956.

Israeli Ambassador to the UN Abba Eban explained the provocations to the Security Council on October 30:

During the six years during which this belligerency has operated in violation of the Armistice Agreement there have occurred 1,843 cases of armed robbery and theft, 1,339 cases of armed clashes with Egyptian armed forces, 435 cases of incursion from Egyptian controlled territory, 172 cases of sabotage perpetrated by Egyptian military units and fedayeen in Israel. As a result of these actions of Egyptian hostility within Israel, 364 Israelis were wounded and 101 killed. In 1956 alone, as a result of this aspect of Egyptian aggression, 28 Israelis were killed and 127 wounded.

Would anyone reading the above say that Israel committed an "unprovoked" attack. Only someone listening to the whisper of malificence.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-28-2006, 09:18 PM   #333
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote:
In the last few days, there are also multiple reports of Israeli soldiers from the battles, those soldiers were very frustrated since they saw HA observers targeting them from Mosque tops and populated areas, yet, when they asked for support fire (artilary or air) they were refused since the source of the fire was concidered "civilian". Thus Luc, I guess even the description of destruction is relative.

Further, some of the descriptions you gave seem to be of houses destryed due to HA fire on them, while the Israeli soldiers were inside (HA used anti-tank missiles in quantities larger then most armies have).


Amir
that's definitely a good point. i didn't mean to sound so one-sided before; i just think Mike found the right buttons to push


however, i wouldn't use statistics to prove a point. here's why:

1200 Lebanese dead, most of them civilians. 1/3 were children . 400 dead kids in one month? most casualties were civilians?

not to mention 5000 wounded Lebanese, no clean water in most of Southern Lebanon, no power in most of Lebanon, and Hezbollah standing strong.

this is why you can't talk statistics. you specifically stated that Israel attacked because of security concerns regarding Hezbollah.

if we went by the statistics, Israel invaded Lebanon to turn back the clock 30 years, and kill every civilian that got in the way. hardly the motive, no?

bottom line: IDF was sloppy, to say the least. they're not war criminals, they're not barbarians, but they are sloppy. imagine your wife giving you a grocery list; one month later, you come back, with a boatload of groceries, but none of them was on the list.

just check the statistics
 
Old 08-28-2006, 09:40 PM   #334
Mike Sigman
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
however, i wouldn't use statistics to prove a point. here's why:

1200 Lebanese dead, most of them civilians. 1/3 were children . 400 dead kids in one month? most casualties were civilians?

not to mention 5000 wounded Lebanese, no clean water in most of Southern Lebanon, no power in most of Lebanon, and Hezbollah standing strong.
But see, this is the one-sided crap that makes everyone think that Arabs are simply dishonest. You don't mention that Hezbollah started it, that they fired rockets from in the middle of civilian populations, deliberately putting their own countrymen to death just so guys like you and Mick Neal can make bad noises about the Israelis (maybe this is all Arab civilians are good for? Is that what you would agree to?), they shot rockets into Israeli civilian targets where there were no military and they loaded the rockets with ball-bearings so more people would be maimed and killed, etc., etc. And you still want to blame the Israelis? As I said, I used to have some concern about being honest and even-handed about the Arabs and Israelis, but we've now seen up close for decades that Arabs lie, don't keep bargains, continually attack Israel time and again, etc., etc. I'm not particularly pro-Israeli, but I've definitely gotten tired of the myth of the nice-guy Arabs if only you got to know them. It's a completely different culture where lying is an admired part of life. What is there to admire about Islam, seriously? They haven't contributed anything positive to civilazation for more than 3 centuries. Maybe instead of worrying what Israel, the US, and the West are doing wrong, maybe Islam should worry more about itself. I'd ask the Eurabians to help worry about Islam, but they're already being taken over.

Mike
 
Old 08-29-2006, 07:02 AM   #335
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
But see, this is the one-sided crap that makes everyone think that Arabs are simply dishonest. You don't mention that Hezbollah started it...
i don't know who started this conflict. i'll tell you one thing, though: it wasn't started over a couple of prisoners, and you'd be naive to think it did.

the only thing i can conclude is that Israel and Hezbollah make natural mortal enemies, and this conflict was inevitable.


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
that they fired rockets from in the middle of civilian populations, deliberately putting their own countrymen to death.....they shot rockets into Israeli civilian targets where there were no military and they loaded the rockets with ball-bearings so more people would be maimed and killed, etc., etc.

if a hezbollah member was starving in the street, i would take pleasure in watching him suffer.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And you still want to blame the Israelis? It's a completely different culture where lying is an admired part of life. What is there to admire about Islam, seriously? They haven't contributed anything positive to civilazation for more than 3 centuries.
let me make myself perfectly clear: i have no beef with Israeli civilians, their way of life, or my Israeli friends. one day, we *will* live together in peace, and that's how it should be. i hope, that's how it will be.

i also hope that one day, a full investigation can be opened about war crimes committed by Hezbollah and the IDF. this battle was nothing more than a pissing contest. Hezbollah fires more rockets, Israel bombs more buildings. Hezbollah fires even more rockets, Israel bombs even more buildings. like little kids. pathetic.

when 100% of Hezbollah rockets hit 0% army bases, you have the right to call them animals, because that's what they are.

and when there's more dead children than Hezbollah "in the name of self defense", i'm not gonna sit around and accept that, as nobody should. you would think that "the superpower of the middle east" would have more than trained chimps looking through the scopes. Israel deserves better leadership, and that's exactly what they're protesting about. don't take my word for it, take theirs if you have to.


the letters on the keyboard that you're using to communicate with us were descended from Arab culture, it's clear you're the one with the one-sided approach.

my favourite quote from a certain movie: "when my people were writing philosophy, yours were still swinging from the trees"

Lebanon can trace its roots back thousands of years. Jesus walked those great lands. maybe you should find out why the Cedar tree is on our flag. was the US anything but a barren wasteland 2000 years ago? i think there might've been some buffalo. at least a couple of worms.

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 08-29-2006 at 07:07 AM.
 
Old 08-30-2006, 10:17 PM   #336
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Lebanon can trace its roots back thousands of years. Jesus walked those great lands. maybe you should find out why the Cedar tree is on our flag. was the US anything but a barren wasteland 2000 years ago?
How do you know Jesus didn't walk around the US 2000 years ago?

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
 
Old 08-31-2006, 07:08 AM   #337
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
How do you know Jesus didn't walk around the US 2000 years ago?
because he was apalled by everyone's big, fat ass.
 
Old 08-31-2006, 08:39 AM   #338
Mark Uttech
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Re: World War 3?

The US is a very rich country, it is true. And people are not as active as they once. The MiddleEast is in flames as it has been for hundreds of years. Perhaps that is why discussion about it is 'heated discussion'. I am not trying to be funny here. Maybe when the bombs fall closer and closer to home,
(and they are already falling closer to home), we will step aside and look again. On another note,
Saddam Hussein said in the days leading up to the Iraq invasion: "If you come here, your young soldiers will find their coffins."
 
Old 08-31-2006, 09:37 AM   #339
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Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
Maybe when the bombs fall closer and closer to home,
(and they are already falling closer to home), we will step aside and look again. ."
they fell on our home in September of 2001. double the Lebanese civilian casualties in a matter of minutes.

i'll leave it up to you to decide whether we "stepped aside and looked again," but i have my doubts.
 
Old 08-31-2006, 11:57 AM   #340
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/wo...rtner=homepage

more rockets fired into Israel today. are these guys idiots? i wouldn't touch israel right now....
 
Old 09-01-2006, 01:01 AM   #341
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yeah, but you have not had Isreal killing and maiming your friends and faimly all of your life, nor have you had the influence of radical Islam. The thing that is really complicating about the Isreal/Palistine *thing* is that NEITHER of them are right insofar as their behaviour is conserned. They are all acting like animals.
 
Old 09-01-2006, 08:52 AM   #342
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Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote:
yeah, but you have not had Isreal killing and maiming your friends and faimly all of your life.
actually i have. and i'm proud to say that all my life, i've made a lot of good Israeli friends, and will continue to do so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/wo...ld&oref=slogin

another display of IDF arrogance and oppression. i don't have a single good thing to say about these people anymore.



it's clear that military tactics are not going to work in Lebanon. the IDF has made that abundantly clear. so what's the point of continuing to oppress the citizens, raise Israeli flags in a land that they wish was theirs, and conduct over 70 violations of a cease-fiire?

simple: their pride has been hurt, and they're taking it out on the civilians. seems like a popular strategy for them.

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 09-01-2006 at 09:07 AM.
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:01 AM   #343
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
another display of IDF arrogance and oppression. i don't have a single good thing to say about these people anymore.
Why is that surprising, coming from an Arab? Lebanon and Hezbollah have not lived up to a single part of their half of the agreement... I notice you have not mentioned a word about that. Hezbollah is not disarmed. Arms are still being smuggled in to Hezbollah. The Israeli soldiers have not been released. Etc., Etc. Not a word

Not a word when Arabs forced 2 American news-journalists to "convert" to Islam under gunpoint. If Americans or Jews had done that to an Arab there would have been screaming from all the usual suspects (including Neil Mick). But not a word. Not even a fatwa from any Arab clerics. Not a word.

Oh, well, I guess there is some word... complaints from Arabs/Muslims that people don't like them. And more finger-pointing at Israel to try to sway the dumbed-down.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:07 AM   #344
David Orange
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Taken Care of Now...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Arms are still being smuggled in to Hezbollah.
That's taken care of now. Kofi Anan announced that Syria will be guarding the border to make sure no arms get through...

That oughta work! The border will be as tight as a Canal Street levy!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:07 AM   #345
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
...simple: their pride has been hurt, and they're taking it out on the civilians. seems like a popular strategy for them.

Is this why the terrorists kill civilians, too? Their pride been hurt?

Quote:
...the IDF... they are criminals, oppressors, and flat out idiots that don't mind killing children and burning schools as long as a Hezbollah member is hiding behind it.
Any condemnation about the terrorists using civilians as shields, knowing that the west won't hunt them because they will be condemned? Does the IDF actually willingly target civilians to get through to the terrorists behind them, or are the civilians 'collatetral damage' because they are there only because the terrorists hide behind them? Is it right for terrorists to hide behind civilians? Any resentment towards terrorists?
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:17 AM   #346
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Lebanon and Hezbollah have not lived up to a single part of their half of the agreement... I notice you have not mentioned a word about that. Hezbollah is not disarmed. Arms are still being smuggled in to Hezbollah. The Israeli soldiers have not been released.
you don't read much, Mike. almost 9000 Lebanese soldiers will have the sole duty of guarding the Lebanese border to make sure arms aren't smuggled in. Israel made its point, and Lebanon is listening. you may question whether this will work, but the point is Lebanon is doing everything it can to comply.

and Hezbollah is disarmed. after 70 cease fire violations, hezbollah only committed 4. that's an astounding record, and as good as it's gonna get.

it's Olmert who did not want to negotiate the soldiers during war. only now is Olmert willing to have talks. Siniora offered their release countless times.

compare all this with all the facts in the article i just linked (did you read it?), and the fact that Israel is not allowing Lebanon to rebuild because it's not lifting its air and sea blockade. nice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/wo...html?ref=world

do you know what you're talking about?


and i love how you use blanket statements like "when the ARABS...". let me asking you something: have the Lebanese army ever kidnapped anyone? when was the last time the Lebanese army fired a single bullet into Israel?

find me one bullet, ONE, and I will retract every statement i ever made. you won't find it.

Hezbollah was asking for trouble. why the IDF continues to take out its frustration on Lebanon is beyond me.

they couldn't get the job done and Olmert will not accept defeat because he's under a lot of public pressure to show some sort of victory. that's still no excuse for kicking a wounded lamb when it's down.
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:32 AM   #347
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Re: World War 3?

Quote:
Luc Saroufim wrote:
you don't read much, Mike. almost 9000 Lebanese soldiers will have the sole duty of guarding the Lebanese border to make sure arms aren't smuggled in. Israel made its point, and Lebanon is listening. you may question whether this will work, but the point is Lebanon is doing everything it can to comply.
Bullshit. Lebanon has announced that its army will not disarm Hezbollah and half the Lebanese Army is Hezbollah anyway. Are you deliberately being disingenuous?
Quote:
and Hezbollah is disarmed.
That's completely false. You're the first person to try to claim that. Siniora just explained again yesterday that they will not disarm Hezbollah. You should correct him.
Quote:
it's Olmert who did not want to negotiate the soldiers during war. only now is Olmert willing to have talks. Siniora offered their release countless times.
It was part of the cease-fire to return the soldiers! The cease-fire was NOT an agreement to "start negotiations". Once again the lying, corrupt, dumb, duplicitous Arabs have done what they usually do. They never change. And the civilians continue to blame Israel for what the Arabs do to themselves. It is time for the world to be free of Muslims unless they can prove themselves to have some worth.

Did you notice that the BS about Hezbollah "winning" the war has now come back to haunt Nasrallah and he is openly saying he should never have kidnapped the soldiers? Yet he doesn't return them. I would be happy to see Israel mount a *real* attack on Lebanon now. Show them what a real "all out" attack is. The Arabs will not live up to their side of the agreement ... as is usual with all Arabs... so why not use Lebanon as an example? Let's quit making a joke of Israel... let's make a joke of Lebanon. When Arabs start paying for their crimes, perhaps they will start listening, eh? Wait... I'll bet you don't like someone talking about Arabs the way you talk about the Jews, do you?
Quote:
compare all this with all the facts in the article i just linked (did you read it?), and the fact that Israel is not allowing Lebanon to rebuild because it's not lifting its air and sea blockade. nice.
Another lie? The cease-fire agreement called for UN forces before the blockade was lifted. They're not there yet, are they. The cease-fire agreement called for the release of the 2 Israeli soldiers... didn't happen. And you have the gall to suggest that Israel "negotiate" for their release, despite the fact that the release was part of the cease-fire agreement? Let's suppose it is your family, not just some sorry "Jooz" that are kidnapped sometime. Perhaps you will not speak so offhandedly about people who were criminally kidnapped by sorry excuses for human beings?

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-01-2006, 09:41 AM   #348
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Re: World War 3?

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Luc Saroufim wrote:
...Hezbollah was asking for trouble. why the IDF continues to take out its frustration on Lebanon is beyond me.....
Ummm, maybe because Hezbollah is using Lebanon for their actions/hideout/living?? Should the IDF have attacked Canada for Hezbollah actions against Isreal from Lebanon? I can see it now:
Terrorist (in Lebanon): We must attack IDF. Fire rockets!
Isreal: Damn those terrorists firing rockets from land located in Lebanon! Attack Iceland!
 
Old 09-01-2006, 10:12 AM   #349
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

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John Hogan wrote:
Ummm, maybe because Hezbollah is using Lebanon for their actions/hideout/living??


like i said countless times during this thread, i was very much in favour of Israel helping Lebanon wipe out Hezbollah. there is no excuse for how IDF has been handling the situation ever since.

it's clear you don't have any ties to Lebanon, and i say: lucky you.
 
Old 09-01-2006, 10:28 AM   #350
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: World War 3?

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Mike Sigman wrote:
Wait... I'll bet you don't like someone talking about Arabs the way you talk about the Jews, do you?
let's get this out of the way: you're the one over-generalizing a race of people. not once in this thread have i said anything bad about Jews. i'm making it specifically clear that my beef lies with the IDF.

if i can make an analogy: most Americans love the US, but hate Bush.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It is time for the world to be free of Muslims unless they can prove themselves to have some worth.
you start losing credibility when you start sounding like a certain totalitarian dictator.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:

Bullshit. Lebanon has announced that its army will not disarm Hezbollah and half the Lebanese Army is Hezbollah anyway. Are you deliberately being disingenuous? That's completely false

in other words, back to square one. a lot of good this battle did. and you're saying Lebanon did this to itself because it can't disarm Hezbollah?

how about helping Lebanon instead of destroying it? kind of win-win, don't you think? you hold a lot of hostility towards the Lebanese government considering they're the *only* neighbor that doesn't want every Israeli to burn, and actually recognizes Israel as a State. unless you really think we're better off now.

60% of the Lebanese army is Shi'ite. Most, if not all, had no qualms with Israel whatsoever. 0% of the Lebanese army is Hezbollah.

you made fair enough points about the violation of cease-fire agreements, but i am outraged right now about how Israel is not letting Lebanon rebuild. considering the 70:4 ratio of offensive strikes, it's safe to say the IDF is the only agrressor.

there's no reason for Israel to feel threatened right now. no rockets have been fired into Israel, and Hezbollah violated the cease-fire 4 times as opposed to Israel's 70. let the country re-build, for God's sake. they're not allowing aid to get in, they're continuing to destory roads, and about 25% of the displaced people are homeless.

Last edited by Luc X Saroufim : 09-01-2006 at 10:30 AM.
 

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